Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: Zenning on October 06, 2005, 06:40:14 pm
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Belthasar at one point in Chrono Cross tells us that Home World had only one moon, while Another World has two moons (we see those two moons only in cinematic scenes with night sky backdrops in Another World; see: Viper Manor and Terra Tower cinema scenes).
Now, many of you here tell me that Another World is the original timeline, saved by Crono & Co.
If Another World is indeed the timeline that Crono & Co lived in and defeated Lavos upon, then...
...that's also the same timeline which consists of the 600AD when they fought Magus. And if you remember the scene with Magus's castle, you have the backdrop of the moon behind the gargoyle statue at the top of castle; you see this when you first visit the castle.
My point is, we only see one moon in the Magus castle scene, when, if Another World is indeed the same timeline in which Lavos was defeated, there should be two moons!
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Also, if Home World is split off of Another World, why do you suppose it would only have one moon and not two moons?
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well, moons effect the tide.... if something is moving in a certain fashon, it could indeed be captured by earths gravity becoming a moon to the earth, prehaps the extra gravitational forces of the second moon caused the drowning of serge in "another world" and the moon would be the indirect reason for the splitting, of course there is the question of did the new moons corse, which might have lead it into its persent orbit in another world, get effected by something? prehaps a seperate lovas? (it is mentioned that lovas reproduced after the attack, obviously theres a previous forum to all life and the degree of similarity over generations implys that this isnt the first "planet killer" in the lovas species)
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Belthasar at one point in Chrono Cross tells us that Home World had only one moon, while Another World has two moons (we see those two moons only in cinematic scenes with night sky backdrops in Another World; see: Viper Manor and Terra Tower cinema scenes).
A quick search of the Chrono Cross script reveals that Belthasar only mentions the moon once.
Belthasar:
There were six Dragons
you knew of and one more
hidden Dragon you didn't...
Like the second moon
that once was lost,
but later was found...
Although the same planet,
my world didn't have two
moons!
He is referring to the fact that there was only one moon in the original timeline, such as during the events of Chrono Trigger. In the new timeline caused by the Time Crash, there are two moons. The extra moon is also visible in both Home and Another after the Dimensional Split.
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1) If Harle is of the Dark Moon, why isn't she the Chrono Cross element? she just mimics the dark dragons element.. WTF.
Harle is strange. But I like her.
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1) If Harle is of the Dark Moon, why isn't she the Chrono Cross element? she just mimics the dark dragons element.. WTF.
Harle is strange. But I like her.
Harle is Black-innate, she's not "the" Chrono Cross element.
The real discrepancy is the fact that you see only one yellow moon when Serge time-travels to Lucca's orphanage. Either the dark red moon was gravitating behind the blue moon (which then appears yellow for whatever reason) at that moment, or the dark moon was created during the magnetic storm at the same time as Harle (would be dumb though), or Kid has a memory from and is from Keystone T-1, or it's a plot-hole...
Another question:
Belthasar:
There were six Dragons
you knew of and one more
hidden Dragon you didn't...
Like the second moon
that once was lost,
but later was found...
Although the same planet,
my world didn't have two
moons!
Why does Belthasar say that the second moon was once lost?
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Maybe because the dark moon came from the Repitite Dimension? Or that the dark moon was truely the Lunar Dragons moon. But when they were sealed, it dissapeared till Harle was created, she was kinda like all of them combined.
And why would it be dumb for the moon to appear when Harle was born? In the FMV, Harle pretty much jumps out of the moon when she is created. The moon is basiaclly her representation.
BTW, Harle is the strongest dragon, except for the Lunar Dragon.
Why? She can beat up all of her mothers and fathers/brother sisters.
My question @ you Chrono'99 was why is she a black innate if she's the 7th dragon. She's basically the combination of all the sealed dragons to from one being, so she should basically resemble the Chrono Cross. Hello, the Chrono Cross itself has to do with the Reptite dimension, which is pretty much what the dragons are.
HARLE ROX!
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Maybe because the dark moon came from the Repitite Dimension?
I guess that solves that, except for Belthasar saying it was once lost.
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It's possible that she's listed as a black innate due to pure gameplay mechanics. I mean, how would you be able to use her if she had, "Chrono Cross" as her innate? Lame I know...but it's possible.
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You could always assume she has the capability for all six elements, but is most comfortable with Black or unaware of the other five.
And how is Harle the strongest dragon? They created her, and she only manages to defeat them when travelling with Serge, I think. Besides, she was helpless to stop the reforming process, so she's obviously not a match for them on her own
Also, wrong use of terminology. She's not their combined form, she's their joint creation.
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I was meaning she's more like a part of each one, since she is their daughter pertty much.
And the reforming process? Harle is still binded to them as a sister. That is why she was crying... Yes... a dragon crying... Because she knew it would happen and only by using Serge, whom she loves. Hey, why don't we see Harle anyway when the dragons merge?
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Hey, why don't we see Harle anyway when the dragons merge?
We do... not in the cutscene though. Remember she's in Chronopolis and steals the flame? After the dragon god is merged, he shoots that "beam" and calls her up. That's when she merged.
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1) If Harle is of the Dark Moon, why isn't she the Chrono Cross element? she just mimics the dark dragons element.. WTF.
Harle is strange. But I like her.
Because, her powers were split apart, and some of her other powers were sealed.
What is Harle's thing for Serge all about, anyway? She has this unexplained attraction to him...
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1) If Harle is of the Dark Moon, why isn't she the Chrono Cross element? she just mimics the dark dragons element.. WTF.
Harle is strange. But I like her.
Because, her powers were split apart, and some of her other powers were sealed.
What is Harle's thing for Serge all about, anyway? She has this unexplained attraction to him...
Some theories state that she may in fact be another clone of Schala. (Not my theory.)
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Could you provide some links or something to where you found this theory?
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Could you provide some links or something to where you found this theory?
Yeah, give me a sec, okay?
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Some theories state that she may in fact be another clone of Schala. (Not my theory.)
As far as we can guess, Harle and Kid may be alternate versions of each other; Kid is from one of the Human timelines, and Harle is from a Reptite timeline.
If you take their basic facial anatomy, and the fact that their fortunes are the same when given by the fortune teller in Another Termina, I don't think it's that improbable.
Belthasar at one point in Chrono Cross tells us that Home World had only one moon, while Another World has two moons (we see those two moons only in cinematic scenes with night sky backdrops in Another World; see: Viper Manor and Terra Tower cinema scenes).
A quick search of the Chrono Cross script reveals that Belthasar only mentions the moon once.
Belthasar:
There were six Dragons
you knew of and one more
hidden Dragon you didn't...
Like the second moon
that once was lost,
but later was found...
Although the same planet,
my world didn't have two
moons!
He is referring to the fact that there was only one moon in the original timeline, such as during the events of Chrono Trigger. In the new timeline caused by the Time Crash, there are two moons. The extra moon is also visible in both Home and Another after the Dimensional Split.
That is PRECISELY the quote I was talking about! So, where did that second moon come from?
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If you take their basic facial anatomy, and the fact that their fortunes are the same when given by the fortune teller in Another Termina, I don't think it's that improbable.
Where did you find that? I have been looking for that exact statment!
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Kid and Harle can't be alternatives from different dimension. Schala doesn't exist in the repitite dimension, besides the fact that she is HUMAN! Kid is created in around 1004-6 AD, whilst Dinopolis and the Dragon God appeared in 7600BC, so they had like 8000 years of time on Earth, in which case they can't be alternatives. Besides the point that Harle was created in 1006, possibly she does look like Kid because Kid and Harle may have been sent out at the same time.
Hey, why don't we see Harle anyway when the dragons merge?
We do... not in the cutscene though. Remember she's in Chronopolis and steals the flame? After the dragon god is merged, he shoots that "beam" and calls her up. That's when she merged.
Ahh... I don't remember Harle stealing the flame. I thought she warned Kid not to touch it, and Kid did and then the whole princess thing flooded back into her mind, and she was trapped so Serge had to save her during that fire scene or something.
I thought thatt he flame only followed the dragons up to Terra Tower. And I never saw that beam take Harle away... Poor Harle. I luv her.
And on the Harle/Serge/Lynx thing. She's creepy. She's like "Even if you're Serge, you are Lynx because you're in his body, and I like Lynx's body so you shall be Lynx" lol.
I'm doing my second play through, I need to get the dragon relics now. Poor Harle. She's one of the 5 main characters. Serge, Kid, Lynx, Harle, Starky (Maybe, cuz you need him).
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Harle flies into the sphere holding the Frozen Flame, before flying up through the opening in the roof of the tower, thus signifying that she stole it. I just played through this scene yesterday, so it's still fresh in my mind.
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No one likes Skelly lol..
Anyway, What do you mean the second red moon? There was only ever the big yellow moon. And the red moon only appeared during Harle's creation, for she is the representation of it.
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Anyway, What do you mean the second red moon? There was only ever the big yellow moon. And the red moon only appeared during Harle's creation, for she is the representation of it.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about.
Originally, there was only the one moon; white, silver, yellow, blue, whatever.
And then, the red moon eventually came along.
What do you mean by the creation of Harle?
How was Harle created?
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Harle was nothing more than a human interface of the Dragon God, much like Lynx was the human interface of FATE.
How could Harle's creation or presence also create another moon?
Does that red moon disappear after we defeat the Dragon God?
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The Red moon was caused by the Time Crash, I think, but as for Harle's creation, the Dragons created her during the time Serge was brought to the Frozen Flame as a baby. It was the one moment where their seal was disabled, so they created a seventh dragon without a seal on it.
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Anyway, What do you mean the second red moon? There was only ever the big yellow moon. And the red moon only appeared during Harle's creation, for she is the representation of it.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about.
Originally, there was only the one moon; white, silver, yellow, blue, whatever.
And then, the red moon eventually came along.
What do you mean by the creation of Harle?
How was Harle created?
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Harle was nothing more than a human interface of the Dragon God, much like Lynx was the human interface of FATE.
How could Harle's creation or presence also create another moon?
Does that red moon disappear after we defeat the Dragon God?
I think so.
.......Darn wish I didn't just start over with Chrono Cross or I could check. Bah.
(....Geez, I didn't help much did I?)
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Aura, why would a red moon, smaller than the original moon, appear?
I always thought that that moon was of the Dark Moon Dragon, in other words, Harle.
In the FMV, Harle pretty much jumps out, right next to the moon. Like Belthasar said, 5 stars and a moon represented the original Dragon Gods once they split. And till Harle was created, that moon came into being.
And didn't someone else say that that moon was the TD's or Harles anyway aswell?
And also, if you do notice Harle's techs, it'd be logical to think that the moon is her preresintation, since she uses it for every tech, especially Lunarteric.
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Aura, why would a red moon, smaller than the original moon, appear?
I always thought that that moon was of the Dark Moon Dragon, in other words, Harle.
In the FMV, Harle pretty much jumps out, right next to the moon. Like Belthasar said, 5 stars and a moon represented the original Dragon Gods once they split. And till Harle was created, that moon came into being.
And didn't someone else say that that moon was the TD's or Harles anyway aswell?
And also, if you do notice Harle's techs, it'd be logical to think that the moon is her preresintation, since she uses it for every tech, especially Lunarteric.
It's obviously symbolic. The red moon isn't a dragon. The 5 other stars existed in Chrono Trigger and there was no dragon at all in that game.
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That's why I said they were representations. Wether the 6 original dragon gods too those 5 stars and the other moon as their own representations (possible needed to exist outside of the TD), I've always thought as the red moon having something to do with Harle.
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Belthasar:
There were six Dragons
you knew of and one more
hidden Dragon you didn't...
Like the second moon
that once was lost,
but later was found...
Although the same planet,
my world didn't have two
moons!
Look up at the night sky
now and you will see seven
celestial bodies...
Five stars and two moons...
Five brother stars that
correspond to the five
colored Dragons, ruling like
gods over the night skies...
One moon that corresponds
to the white Sky Dragon...
And another darker, daughter
moon to counterbalance them.
Belthasar:
The Fire Dragon,
the Water Dragon,
the Green Dragon,
the Earth Dragon,
the Black Dragon,
the Sky Dragon,
and one more...
The final Dragon...
The dark moon Dragon...
The one who was to work to
free the other Dragons from
their bondage by the FATE
computer...
The child the others created on
the night of the electric storm
that temporarily caused FATE
to loosen its hold on them...
Belthasar:
I believe you
knew her as...
Harle.
*point the bold*
Would that help, Zaperking?
.....I begining to think I am just really good at hunt down things from the script.
...Oh well.
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Yes, That definately helps, Thansk Dragoness :D
She's the "Final Dragon" Omg. That makes her sound so powerful. So I was right to believe that she was of the dark moon :P
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Just because the Dark Moon represents her doesn't mean that her presence created it. That's ridiculous. If the Dark Moon wasn't there at her birth she'd probably be represented by another star. People in El Nido has always seen the Dark Moon in the sky, and El Nido is a lot older than eightteen years. The Dark Moon exists via the Time Crash.
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You are welcome.
.....Bah, I wish we have more to things that can tells us true how in the heck that moon got there...o.o
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Zaper, Harle did NOT jump out of the moon.
Harle was simply standing on a parapet of Viper Manor, with the moon in the background, and she leaped off of the parapet.
After all, she still looked too big in relative size of the moon, to have leaped out of the moon.
After all, if Harle leaped out of the moon, she'd be jumping out into the vacuum of SPACE, not into the sky!
The moon isn't within the atmosphere of the planet, no matter how large the moon looks and thus makes it seem that way!
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Zaper, Harle did NOT jump out of the moon.
Harle was simply standing on a parapet of Viper Manor, with the moon in the background, and she leaped off of the parapet.
After all, she still looked too big in relative size of the moon, to have leaped out of the moon.
After all, if Harle leaped out of the moon, she'd be jumping out into the vacuum of SPACE, not into the sky!
The moon isn't within the atmosphere of the planet, no matter how large the moon looks and thus makes it seem that way!
This cinema you're talking about...it's the one that plays during Scars of Time, yes? Is there any way of triggering it in-game? I have this image that you can because people here use that cinema as an example, and they're seeing things that I'm not (too fast? Not looking the right place?), and I'm wondering if the one that plays during the intro is just a clip from one in the game.
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Zaper, Harle did NOT jump out of the moon.
Harle was simply standing on a parapet of Viper Manor, with the moon in the background, and she leaped off of the parapet.
After all, she still looked too big in relative size of the moon, to have leaped out of the moon.
After all, if Harle leaped out of the moon, she'd be jumping out into the vacuum of SPACE, not into the sky!
The moon isn't within the atmosphere of the planet, no matter how large the moon looks and thus makes it seem that way!
This cinema you're talking about...it's the one that plays during Scars of Time, yes? Is there any way of triggering it in-game? I have this image that you can because people here use that cinema as an example, and they're seeing things that I'm not (too fast? Not looking the right place?), and I'm wondering if the one that plays during the intro is just a clip from one in the game.
You're not alone; I've never seen this particular cinema scene in game, unless it's supposed to be part of the cinema scene that plays before your first visit to Viper Manor, in which we see the Manor, with the night sky in the background filled with the two moons, and we see a four-winged Dragon (probably the White Sky Dragon) fly by.
Indeed, if it's supposed to play at this part in the game, it gets skipped over when I play my disc on my PS2.
Either way, I only see this scene during the introductory cinematic amalgamation that precedes the title screen and the in-game demo movie.
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This cutscene, and the one with Serge doing a Dash&Slash in front of Zappa's house, don't appear in-game.
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I wasn't literally meaning she was jumping out of the moon. I was meaning that it was a representation that as if she was created then and there, like out of some black hole she was kicked out by the Dragon. That little scene is very powerful anyway, just like many of the other scenes.
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And the difference is...?
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The statement about "once lost, now returned" has not been resolved. I thought about this for awhile, and have a theory. Perhaps originally, there were two moons. When Lavos crashed and the Reptites fell, somehow the second moon was disrupted and disintegrated. However, in the Reptite Dimension, both moons stayed A-OK. That is, until the Time Crash occurred and the red moon was pulled out.
Now, this theory assumes that the Red Moon from the Reptite Dimension is not the Yellow Moon from the Keystone Dimension in composition. If we grant that perhaps they were the same moon in 65000000 B.C., and simple alterations over millions of years changed their appearances, then that theory above is bogus and the quote remains unsolved.
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One theory to consider is that the orbital patterns of the red moon made it so that it had always been hidden behind the main moon until Chrono Cross. That was the theory I first thought of when I read Belthasar's quote.
Another theory is that the red moon was some type of large meteor that was coming at the planet at just the right angle that it got caught up in orbit, thus showing how there could be one moon in the past and 2 in CC.
These are, of course, just scientific speculations and do not take into account the theory that the moon might have been created when Harle was born or brought when Dinopolis was pulled into the dimension.
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The only thing with that quote is that it revolves around the Dragon God. Since Harle did not exist in the Reptite Dimension, and she is the representation/actual incarnate of it's power, the Black Moon would not have existed in the reptite dimension because Harle was not out. But since Harle was created, and the moon appeared, it may mean that her existance caused it to come to pass.
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But the Yellow Moon exists without the Sky Dragon. -_- It only represents the Dragon like a constellation. It doesn't mean there's any actual supernatural connection.
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Yeah, and the stars and moons don't all of a sudden disappear when you defeat the Dragon God.
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Yeah, and the stars and moons don't all of a sudden disappear when you defeat the Dragon God.
They don't have to though. It's not as if they are those things. The Black Moon may simply be what gives Harle her power, as she is of it. She is after all the 7th and Last Dragon - The Dragon of the Dark Moon. So if shes the dragon of the dark moon, then her power links with it some how. Maybe even the dragons can exist outside the DBT and the TD because they are linked to their constellations and the Earth's power points. Though, since the Dragon God has it's own consciousness, and yet the game says it was created through the Earth's power, that'd mean that the Dragon God is a part of the Planet's energy so it should actually be it. But it's not so yeah :O
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The Dragons don't draw power from the moon-They're not some sort of natural Mammom Machine that draws energy from whatever it's linked too. It just uses powers that are symoblic- The Fire Dragon uses fire ELEMENTS, and has a few of his own symbolic techs, like Fire Breath, which can be generated from within him. The Sky Dragon uses White Elements and celestial based skills, but he doesn't need the sky to survive.
The Dragon God is like your characters-He uses Elemenets and Techs, but sticks to his own color\element because it's his symbol, and he doesn't draw power from anything.
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Plus I doubt even Gaia (Earth) Can draw power from stars in different nebulae. That's above even Lavos' scale of power.
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Plus I doubt even Gaia (Earth) Can draw power from stars in different nebulae. That's above even Lavos' scale of power.
Maybe the Japanese version is different. I'd want to know what Belthasar said in it as for their representations or whatever :O
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If he said something different about it, that is.
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Well, the developers stated that the North American version was supervised by Kato himself to avoid errors and to clarify some things that were ambiguous in the Japanese game (like Belthasar forseeing the whole Project Kid, it's clear in the NA version but it was less evident in the Japanese version). And so far, I'm pretty sure we never spoted any translation error in the NA version (even the "TimeDevourer" Dragon God wasn't a mistake), so I don't think the Japanese version would say something more precise about the Dragon Gods and the stars.
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This entire moon stuff still makes me mad and confused. The most logical solution is that the Time Crash resulted in the planet simply pulling the moon out of the Reptite Dimension, effectively disrupting the living crap out of their world probably as a result. Otherwise, we've got this superfluous moon and a weird quote by Belthasar. I need suggestions, and fast.
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The moon is a mystery. It could be connected to a lot of things...
It may be an important element in the next game in the Chrono series. It may be a hidden space station where people in the future regulate the flow of time so that everything is in sync. The moon is red, which increases my confusion. Why red? Is it reflecting something, is it a huge chunk of Dreamstone...
We should create an analysis thread where everyone throws out their suggestion. Then Zeality can combine everything into one big master list. We can then compare and contrast from the Chronoverse to the suggested moon idea.
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Well, like I said earlier.
The Dark Moon can't exactally be from the Dragonian dimension because it is red, and also smaller. If the Reptite Dimension is the CT dimension, except that this time around Lavos did not land, then the land would be the same, and the satellite.
For that reason, I think the Dark Moon is almost like an element that represents Harle. Harle isn't just one element at heart. 6 different ones are composed of her. Not to mention that her power seems to derive from the moon itself with her techniques. And is always stated as the Dark Moon Dragon God.
The only other thing that I could think of is that Harle being created caused the moon to change (like it may have been identical to the CT moon). After all, each of the Dragons does have it's own celestial counterpart. And surely, Belthasar wasn't speaking about it for no reason. Those 5 celestial bodies may power them, or are also a represenation of their power. Maybe their some kind of elemental stars, or have a life link with each dragon, I don't know.
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The Dark Moon can't exactally be from the Dragonian dimension because it is red, and also smaller. If the Reptite Dimension is the CT dimension, except that this time around Lavos did not land, then the land would be the same, and the satellite.
Not nessessarily true. For all we know, Lavos' impact created the Moon, but without his presence in the Reptite dimension, some other meteor hit and made a different moon. Or maybe Lavos in the Reptite dimension crashed into the moon in the Reptite dimension, changed it into the Dark Moon, then died from lack of food. Or maybe the moon just plain got mutated in the dimensional transfer. Who knows?
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I forgot that Kato said the moon came about WITH Dinopolis. This means that either the moon was sucked out of the Dragonian dimension or something else is at work. Regardless, this simplifies things.
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I can't think of the Moon coming in with Dinopolis because that would not be equivalent exchange. Chronopolis went into the past, and Dinopolis was sent into counter measure it's medling, and hence bring about a new future.
Maybe it's possible that the celestial item for the Dragon God is the Dark Moon, and that it's connected to it. Bringing it in caused that moon to come in. Then, when they were split apart, and then Harle was made, she gained it's full power. Harle, after all, is the combination of all 6 dragons. So she pretty much is The Dragon God.
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Is that why she was pretty easy to beat compared to the Dragon God, and even expressed woe over having to obey the Dragon God's will?
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Mind you, I doubt she was fighting all on and was that simple to beat. Remember, Harle works for the Dragon God, and the Dragon Gods need Serge to get the Frozen Flame. Why would Harle use her full power to finish him off if she needs him to live? Duh.
Anyway, Her sorrow is what proves that she is the closest thing to the Dragon God. She actually feels emotion, the emotion that the planet can feel. Harle, no doubt, is not only crying about not being able to journey with Serge, but also because she is using him and because she knows what will happen should her brothers and sisters reunite and get their hands on the flame (bye bye humans).
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The Dragon God is connected to the planet, not moons or astral bodies.
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Yea, you're putting a bit too much significance on Harle and expolating her power. She was just a component for the Dragon God's completion made to masquerade as a human or demi-human. She's associated with the Dark Moon probably because it was already there, otherwise she'd get a star. Not to mention that the connections are symbolic only. They have no spiritual ties to the astral bodies.
As for Harle's emotion, that's not coming from the planet. It's coming from herself. The irony is that she's the most human of any of the Dragon Gods, based on Schala's DNA and everything.
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Yea, you're putting a bit too much significance on Harle and expolating her power. She was just a component for the Dragon God's completion made to masquerade as a human or demi-human. She's associated with the Dark Moon probably because it was already there, otherwise she'd get a star. Not to mention that the connections are symbolic only. They have no spiritual ties to the astral bodies.
As for Harle's emotion, that's not coming from the planet. It's coming from herself. The irony is that she's the most human of any of the Dragon Gods, based on Schala's DNA and everything.
Don't make her seem so useless.
Anyway, shes not necessarily a component, but she does have her mission. She has to get the Flame from Chronopolis, and then her brothers and sisters would be free to merge. She did not necessarily have to merge with them. One of the endings where the Dragon God merges has Harle not merged with them at Marbule with the Sage and Serge in Lynx's body.
I know it's symbolic, but we already have so many quotes on her and the moon, and her power is that of the Dark Moon. If it didn't exist, would she be able to use her skills? She obviously has manipulation over the Dark Moon and it's light (hence she has Moon Beams and Lunateric). If Belthasar wanted to make sence, he should have said something more along the lines of "One star split into 6, combined they made the 7th" as an example. The problem is that Belthasar doesn't give the one Dragon God an astral body of it's own, unless the Dark Moon is that, and we know that Harle is almost like a mini combined Dragon God in her own right.
What I was meaning by her emotion is that if she, like Razzly can feel the planets sorrow, then Harle would be the true Dragon God - the uncorrupt one as everyone seems to think about the Dragon God being tainted by Lavos. Schala's part would have played when Harle would have been crying about leaving Serge, because she has to stick to her kin (reminds you of Schala eh and how she couldn't disobey her mother).
The Dragon God is connected to the planet, not moons or astral bodies.
But everything in the planet is a part of the planets elements, and the Dragons are just that. Had there been no Ultranova's in the universe, then how would a dragon based on those powers be able to exist when the planet itself is not a galaxy and is not able to reproduce that. The planet may have gravity, but it surely isn't a black hole.
Remember, the dragons are the biological incarnates of the elements. Heck, the fire dragon was standing in Lava and wasn't getting hurt.
Also, I bet there are other power spots in the CT universe. Starky can surely use magic, yet he's not from the planet originally, and neither would I think that he just walked into a town and bought himself some elements.
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She obviously has manipulation over the Dark Moon and it's light (hence she has Moon Beams and Lunateric).
And Lynx has Forever Zero, so that means he can end the universe quicker than you can say 'owned'?
I know it's symbolic, but we already have so many quotes on her and the moon, and her power is that of the Dark Moon. If it didn't exist, would she be able to use her skills?
YES! The Dragons are WEAPONS made by the Dragonians. They're not some ancient superweapon the Entity made to kill Lavos. They don't draw their power from the moon or the stars. They simply symbolize them, because when the Dragon God was created he was ONE entity. Obviously, the celestial bodies that symbolize it were chosen during or after the Dragons were split, which means it shouldn't have any impact on their powers, meaning it's symbolism, nothing more, nothing else.
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Don't make her seem so useless.
Don't make her seem so useful.
Anyway, shes not necessarily a component, but she does have her mission. She has to get the Flame from Chronopolis, and then her brothers and sisters would be free to merge. She did not necessarily have to merge with them. One of the endings where the Dragon God merges has Harle not merged with them at Marbule with the Sage and Serge in Lynx's body.
She's a component. She's needed to complete the Dragon God. This is fact. It's also fact that alternate endings in the Chrono Series don't have to take into account other facts. For example, the Frog marrying Lenne ending.
I know it's symbolic, but we already have so many quotes on her and the moon, and her power is that of the Dark Moon. If it didn't exist, would she be able to use her skills? She obviously has manipulation over the Dark Moon and it's light (hence she has Moon Beams and Lunateric). If Belthasar wanted to make sence, he should have said something more along the lines of "One star split into 6, combined they made the 7th" as an example. The problem is that Belthasar doesn't give the one Dragon God an astral body of it's own, unless the Dark Moon is that, and we know that Harle is almost like a mini combined Dragon God in her own right.
Yes, she'd still have her skills. They'd just have different names, I guess. The Dragon God's astral bodies would be all seven.
What I was meaning by her emotion is that if she, like Razzly can feel the planets sorrow, then Harle would be the true Dragon God - the uncorrupt one as everyone seems to think about the Dragon God being tainted by Lavos. Schala's part would have played when Harle would have been crying about leaving Serge, because she has to stick to her kin (reminds you of Schala eh and how she couldn't disobey her mother).
Harle has never demonstrated empathizing with the planet. And if she was, then she wouldn't be trying to get the Frozen Flame because it's like...THE LAST thing the Planet wants. But yea, her behavior is heavily influenced by Schala's DNA.
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Don't make her seem so useful
Maybe because she is. Even the plot dictates that Harle's mission was very important to the Dragon Gods, and Harle, whether she knew what she was doing or not, was doing it on behalf of the planet.
She's a component. She's needed to complete the Dragon God. This is fact. It's also fact that alternate endings in the Chrono Series don't have to take into account other facts. For example, the Frog marrying Lenne ending.
Like I already said, her mission was to remove the flame from Chronopolis to free her brothers and sisters. If Harle has their power and they desperately need it, then they absorbed her for that reason. But as I said, the ending already shows us that she does not need to be absorbed in order for them to do their thing.
Also, giving me an example such as the Frog marrying Leene ending is kind of lame because that was either a comic relief ending or it could be taken literally, as CT shows us what happens when one meddles with time.
Yes, she'd still have her skills. They'd just have different names, I guess. The Dragon God's astral bodies would be all seven.
We don't know that for a fact, if the moon did not exist, then there could not be a "Dark Moon Dragon". The Dragons are based off the elements. Since the 7th element is the CC, Harle is only symbolic for it. Had the Moon not been there, and an element in her techniques, she would have been the "Dragon" of something else.
Harle has never demonstrated empathizing with the planet. And if she was, then she wouldn't be trying to get the Frozen Flame because it's like...THE LAST thing the Planet wants. But yea, her behavior is heavily influenced by Schala's DNA.
Schala has nothing to do with Harle's personality. DNA does not determine your personality. It does, though, determine hereditary mental and physical illnesses. Downs syndrome, Auetism. ETC. Kid is nothing like Schala except in body. Schala doesn't go around killing people, stealing, wearing skimpy little dresses and talking in slang. And Harle speaks french, is psychotically happy and is a part of the planet in the end.
You can't blame Harle for anything. She's doing what her brothers and sisters are telling her to do. And what their view is is that of the planet's. Harle cried on the ship for what was about to happen. She was crying that she would be freeing the dragons, at the expense of Serge. She even shed a tear for humanity in that ending where the humans all perished. But then again, shes also one of those characters that lives by the saying "The ends justify the means".
Nobody could still disprove the fact that Harle is powerful and was only toying with Serge because we all know she needs him in Chronopolis :D
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Like I already said, her mission was to remove the flame from Chronopolis to free her brothers and sisters. If Harle has their power and they desperately need it, then they absorbed her for that reason. But as I said, the ending already shows us that she does not need to be absorbed in order for them to do their thing.
The Dragons wouldn't need Serge-Lynx took care of accessing the Flame for them. The manipulation could of ended in Another's Fort Dragonia, really, but instead they pushed him to go on to Chronopolis. If Harle was supposed to get the Flame, and by staying with Dark Serge she could access it, then her mission should of ended right there. Instead, the Dragons chose Serge as their liberator. That's what the game says. You can take up any complaints you have towards Kato and\or the translators of the game.
I agree, however, that Harle isn't a part of the Dragon God-There was a Dragon God before her and he uses only six Elements. If he had Harle merged with him he would of certainly used a seventh. But he doesn't need to-Harle isn't present in the merge, nor is she a needed part, because, like I said before, the Dragon God was there even BEFORE Harle.
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The Dragons wouldn't need Serge-Lynx took care of accessing the Flame for them. The manipulation could of ended in Another's Fort Dragonia, really, but instead they pushed him to go on to Chronopolis. If Harle was supposed to get the Flame, and by staying with Dark Serge she could access it, then her mission should of ended right there. Instead, the Dragons chose Serge as their liberator. That's what the game says. You can take up any complaints you have towards Kato and\or the translators of the game.
Well, I know what you mean. What I was trying to say is that not only did the Dragons need the flame gone, but Chronopolis aswell. Even if Chronopolis has no flame, well - Chronopolis hasn't been able to use it for over 10 years anyway. Harle probably knew that if she stole the flame in the middle of that, Dark Serge would do something to her, and hello, it's Chronopolis. Also, I guess another part was for Kid to look into the flame, or maybe not. Either way, Harle appeared, and stole the flame when FATE was dead, as that would be the safest time to do so.
I agree, however, that Harle isn't a part of the Dragon God-There was a Dragon God before her and he uses only six Elements. If he had Harle merged with him he would of certainly used a seventh. But he doesn't need to-Harle isn't present in the merge, nor is she a needed part, because, like I said before, the Dragon God was there even BEFORE Harle.
I'm with you. Except that i've learned to face that Harle was absorbed plot wise. But I was trying to say that Harle is not necessarily needed for it. Them retreaving the flame was the main thing that probably cast them back into existance, giving them a physical body back. Harle may have resorted back into being absorbed by them because she knew that she could not be forgiven for her betrayal to Serge and such. But otherwise, in the other ending, Harle did not merge because it was not needed, and she hadn't really used Serge. She did, after all keep saying that Serge was who he was in whatever body he was in. You know, the whole "If you're in Lynx's body, you're Lynx" etc.
But anyway, Harle is a dragon in the end. But like you said, she was created after the Dragon God had already existed. She in herself is a dragon god (full combined version) as she is the combination of all 6.
Hey, did anything think that Harle is black innate because of subtraction? You know, how colours when mixed up make black because all the colours get absorbed and none get transmitted? If we say that the innates are like paint, and Harle is all of them combined, then she would be a black innate and the "Dark Moon" would exist for that reason? O.o But the Chrono Cross is made by addition where light is added, absorbed and transmitted.
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Harle wasn't exactly an element, but they did invest some of their power to create her, and probably have to re-absorb her to be at their fullest potential.
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Hey, did anything think that Harle is black innate because of subtraction?
I agree with this sentence, especially because it's frigging never stated anywhere that Harle is a "combination" of any Dragon God. She's just something the Dragons created one night.
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So would that make Harle the anti-Chrono Cross?
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No, she represents the Chrono Cross.
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I always thought she was totally unrelated to the Chrono Cross. She's just a black innate created by 6 Dragon Gods from Schala's DNA. The Chrono Cross on the other hand is something which "has the power to draw on the sounds of the 6 colored Elements to produce a healing harmony".
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She's a black Innate, but she symbolically represents the Chrono Cross. It doesn't mean she has it's power.
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She's a black Innate
Fact.
but she symbolically represents the Chrono Cross. It doesn't mean she has it's power.
Assumption.
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The fact that the Chrono Cross is the 7th Element (or called so) and that Harle is the 7th Dragon doesn't mean they are related.
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She does symbolically represent the Chrono Cross. The Chrono Cross is made of the Dragon Tear, an artifact of the Dragon God. The Chrono Cross is made from a tear of love and a tear of hate, and the Frozen Flame is a thing that represents hate and love. Harle was created with hate and love, and she is the 7th dragon, just as the Chrono Cross is the 7th element. Also, I just realised something. The 7th element is the lost element. Belthasar stated that the black moon was "a moon once lost" but like the Chrono Cross, had returned into existance. So there may be a connection there too.
Anyway, the game is very symbolic and metaphoric, and Harle is a symbolism for the CC.
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Dammit, Zaper! Stop making sense! I'm not used to it!
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She does symbolically represent the Chrono Cross. The Chrono Cross is made of the Dragon Tear, an artifact of the Dragon God. The Chrono Cross is made from a tear of love and a tear of hate, and the Frozen Flame is a thing that represents hate and love. Harle was created with hate and love, and she is the 7th dragon, just as the Chrono Cross is the 7th element. Also, I just realised something. The 7th element is the lost element. Belthasar stated that the black moon was "a moon once lost" but like the Chrono Cross, had returned into existance. So there may be a connection there too.
Anyway, the game is very symbolic and metaphoric, and Harle is a symbolism for the CC.
She simply doesn't. The Chrono Cross is made from two Dragon Tears, two dimensional versions of the same objet. Is Harle anything like that? Moreover, the Dragon Tear is not "an artifact of the Dragon God", it's an artifact crafted by the Dragonians. It *might* have been produced by the Dragon God, but we don't know it; like the rest of what you said, it's just an assumption. Innate-wise, Harle is just Black.
Actually, I think the symbolic relations that you point out make her appear more like the contrary of the CC, like something which is related but related only in opposed terms. Perhaps Harle was born as an "anti-Chrono Cross" because the Dragon Gods are corrupted by the Time Devourer... Perhaps it would have been able to create a Chrono Cross-innate Dragon if it wasn't corrupted. Well, maybe the original Dragon God was Chrono Cross-innate. But the "Time Devourer" Dragon God is not (it can have all 6 innate colors but not all at the same time), and Harle is not and is almost like its nemesis.
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Harle's creation still represents the CC. 6 elements went into making her. 6 elements are what make up the Chrono Cross. Harle may not possess the Chrono Cross' power, but she is still a metaphor for the same thing.
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Harle's creation still represents the CC. 6 elements went into making her. 6 elements are what make up the Chrono Cross.
Nope. What makes up the Chrono Cross is the fusion of 2 versions of a Dragon Tear from 2 split dimensions. 6 Elements coming together don't necessarily make up a Chrono Cross, this is evidenced by the Time Devourer Dragon God having all 6 innate colors but not all 6 at the same time.
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The Chrono Cross is said to be a Rainbow Element-combined of all colors. Harle's Level 7 Tech seems rather rainbow colored to me.. And of course, if you combine CT's three elements you get Shadow Magic, which is comparable to Black Innates. And what with the Chrono Cross being the 'Lost Element'...
Back to the merge, though-Harle is never stated to be a part of the Dragon God, nor is she needed as a part of the Dragon God, nor does the Dragon God display her powers. Simply put, she was either destroyed or just left be. She stayed away from Serge from shame of betraying him, and stayed clear of the Dragon God as Serge's encounter with him was inevtiable. She could of went into hiding and the Dragon God wouldn't really care-she did what she had to do. For all he cares, she could deposit the Flame on the summit of Terra Tower and then leap off the edge, crash into the sea, and die.
And then there's the usual explanation of how Harle wasn't there before the split, etc etc.
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The Chrono Cross is said to be a Rainbow Element-combined of all colors. Harle's Level 7 Tech seems rather rainbow colored to me.. And of course, if you combine CT's three elements you get Shadow Magic, which is comparable to Black Innates. And what with the Chrono Cross being the 'Lost Element'...
I agree with everything except the Bold. There's really no evidence for that besides a really ambiguous quote taken severely out of context.
Back to the merge, though-Harle is never stated to be a part of the Dragon God, nor is she needed as a part of the Dragon God, nor does the Dragon God display her powers. Simply put, she was either destroyed or just left be. She stayed away from Serge from shame of betraying him, and stayed clear of the Dragon God as Serge's encounter with him was inevtiable. She could of went into hiding and the Dragon God wouldn't really care-she did what she had to do. For all he cares, she could deposit the Flame on the summit of Terra Tower and then leap off the edge, crash into the sea, and die.
And then there's the usual explanation of how Harle wasn't there before the split, etc etc.
Harle was called to them and we never see her again. It seems she was merged with them, if not for that little burst of power or to be snots.
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Harle was called to them and we never see her again. It seems she was merged with them, if not for that little burst of power or to be snots.
It woudln't of just been a little burst of power. Harle was deadly powerful and her merging was crucial to reunite all the dragons. Harle can't just be a little bit of power that they invested in, because had that been so, a weak Harle would probably have been dead already or something. So the Dragons each put in a conciderable amount of energy to invest in Harle.
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None of what we're debating is even mentioned or relevant to the game. This is the kind of stuff I have to wade through when finding meaningful analysis.
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It is so worth debating over.
We started with the moon. The fact that the moon being braught up, and being somehow irrelevant to the plot from our perspective proves that it is relevant in the game. It is definitely relevent if you want to assess Harle, which I think you will one day be doing character analysis' and also, some think that The Dark Moon came in with Dinopolis, which isn't mentioned in the game to that extend, but many believe as I said, and I think thats "officially" stated on the Chronopedium.
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Masato Kato said it came in with Dinopolis.
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As a result of the time clash, the dimensions split. The point in
time where Chronopolis and Dinopolis was hurled to, another moon came in
existence.
"The point in time where Chronopolis and Dinopolis were hurled to, another moon came into existence." That quote is to ambiguous to take into account. It doesn't state it came with Dinopolis. It's saying that where the two cities landed (the era probably) another moon came into existance, not a moon from the Reptite Dimension. Or it's his engrish.
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If it didn't come with Dinopolis, it came with Chronopolis, and we know this not to be the case.
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None of what we're debating is even mentioned or relevant to the game. This is the kind of stuff I have to wade through when finding meaningful analysis.
I take it back. The idea of a Chrono Cross Innate is pretty awesome. Pretty awesome like the PROTAGONIST FOR A NEW CHRONO GAME. That would be inconceivably cool.
I have fallen in love with this idea. It'd have to be a female protagonist for ultimate effect, and one unlike Schala or Kid (weak-willed philosopher versus passion of youth hardass).
But other than that, yeah, this topic was about symbolical speculation mostly. Ultimania needs to be retranslated. I always thought bubblebobby2000 meant that his native language was Japanese when he claimed English as his second, but it's not the case.