Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Green Dream on June 25, 2004, 01:25:20 pm
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I'm going to number off a bunch of possibilities that all add up to explain everything. All that i write here is up for debate, but a good part of the theory is backed by fact. I don't know how much of this has been written before. I'm only going to talk mainly from a CT perspective. I won't get into Fate or anything like that. Just going to explain more about CT. This also only works with certain endings. But i'm sure with some tweeking it could work for multiple. Read this whole thing through and It might make sense. Here it goes.
1. Lavos Lands in 65000000B.C. and sets up a vortex inside the earth to withdrawl its energy. Vortex=Blue swirly battle place.
2. This vortex is physically in the center of the earth but because so much energy is being transfered(or something else), it caused it to transcend time.
Reason: Zeal makes the ocean palace to be closer to Lavos. Now why would Zeal go through all that trouble if hes not actually there?
Note:This place is unbreakable by an outside force. Only Lavos can open it. And creates a new one whenever he fights you to continue to steal earths energy.
3. Since the vortex transcends time. Theoretically, you can kill Lavos at one point and he'll be erased from all of them. (He later creates a second one that you do kill him in but i'll get to that later)
4. The year 12000B.C. comes around and the ocean palace is built and has the mammon machine in it and all that. Lavos is fine with this but then crono comes along. The red knife is thrown into the machine and drains Lavos of enough power to wake him up. This drain creates the Masamune.
5. Lavos breaks his vortex to come to the ocean palace. This is BIG. Without this separation and making of a new vortex at the Ocean palace, Lavos would be erased pre 12,000B.C. when you beat him later on. Remember that everything in the vortex transcends time and without the split, killing lavos in the future beyond the ocean palace would mean killing Lavos pre 12,000B.C. and that can't happen
Reason: Lavos had to remain before the Ocean palace. Otherwise Zeal and all of zeals people would never have existed too. Also, schala wouldn't exist and it would be impossible for CC to happen. In other words we create a giant paradox out of the game and we can't have that in a theory now can we. Plus the apes would never evolve to humans with decent brains had lavos been wiped.
6.Lavos sets up his second vortex at the ocean palace. Again this is big because Lavos's vortex needs to separate.
7.Chrono gets a full blast of Lavos energy and Lavos takes his spirit.(I call this the "Your soul is mine" theory. And yes, you must pronounce it the same way that Shang Tsung did in the first mortal combat movie.)
Reasons:
a.In the FMV movie you see a little white ball above cronos head before he is destroyed. I'm sure now that this is his soul and since it never vaporizes as if it crosses over to the other side i.e. afterlife. Meaning it stayed with Lavos. Also, noone ever directly says crono is dead. They say things like"Where did he go" but never dead. Gaspar also never says that the time egg is too bring him back to life but just to bring him back.
b.Zeal talks to Magus before this and says to him something like"This is from me to you... you shall enjoy eternal life... as part of Lavos.
c. When you fight Lavos with Magus in your party later on he says that humans are Lavos's produce(meaning food). Ass this to the other statements and it seems clear that Lavos doesn't want just the earths soul but souls in general.
d. When you go to the Geno some you get to see all those happy people go into the room on the conveyor belt, and they don't come out. The mother brain here sounds like it works for Lavos. The mother Brain might be helping him obtain souls. She says"Soon Lavos's children will need to find other planets and prey". Other prey makes it sound like it doesn't just take life force from the earth. In other words souls(Or possibly DNA. Could someone plz check to see if DNA stayed the same in the jap to eng translation. Cause if they changed soul to dna it makes a big difference.) With that whole prey thing in mind it seem like lavos just gave humans the brain to create technology, and then used their own technology to harvest their souls.(Can you say Soul McMuffin)
I might be taking this a step too far at this point but bear with me.
8.In the end Lavos doesn't get chrono's soul because you go back in time and put the dummy there. It would be like Shang Tsung going "Your soul is mine" to a Barbie doll.(Just let that imagery sit for a bit)
Now imagine him getting frustrated when it doesn't work.
9. Think back to before you replace chrono with the dummy and are still in the palace. Right after crono vaporizes you get sent out.
10. Zeal falls and Schala and the queen are still in the vortex with Lavos
Reason: When you talk to the guy after the huge wave comes in he says that he say melchoir go after magus who was sucked in by a portal(Most likely the entity conserving part of the past). When asked where Schala is he replies,"No one has seen her since". Meaning she didn't go with melchoir and all the others. I'm also sure that zeal falls in both cases where you kill Lavos. Remember Lavos is the main power source for zeal and I'm pretty sure that that causes it to float. So if Lavos dies then Zeal goes with him, no matter when you kill him.
11. Queen Zeal commands Schala to turn the Ocean Palace into the Black Omen. The Omen is important because it can fly. It is connected to Lavos's ocean palace vortex(Remember the old one is gone). Lavos is somewhere directly under the Omen. When Lavos finishes up with this earth he will continue to go to the next planet with the Black Omen. The Black Omen just allows Queen Zeal to go along with Lavos and obtain more power.
12. The Omen, Lavos and Zeal are now one. Schala doesn't seem to be in the picture here. She is most likely in the mammon machine or lost in the vortex.
Reason: Zeal come out and talks about the connection thing. Since Schala is no where to be found, it is likely that the Queen discarded her after she did her work. And the Queen does threaten to throw people into the mammon machine.
Note: Remember how I said that Lavos's vortex is sealed unless he opens it. Well Lavos is connected to the Omen, and the Omen is open so now Lavos is accesable through the Omen.
13. You go and kill Lavos's shell and it is destroyed throughout time. The vortex is still in existance after you destroy the shell.
14. Because the vortex still exists, it is possible that Schala could be there after you beat the shell. Not that she keeps the vortex running, but since Lavos is still powering it, it leaves her a place to be. If she was in the mammon machine, she was most likely sent to the tesseract after you destroyed it.
15. Lavos core battle takes place throughout all of time.
Reason: No actually it doesn't. These are just images from Lavos's memory. The battle doesn't take place throughout time. Remember we are still in the vortex that sucks away earths energy. It is possible to argue that these images are memories of earth that Lavos stole/is stealing.
16. You defeat Lavos
Reason: Well, unless your horrible and you fail everything, this happens.
17. Because of this Lavos is erased from history in his vortex.
Reason: All the previous mentioned stuff about the vortex.
18. Crono leaves and the ending happens
19. Meanwhile, Lavos is hurled into the Tesseract
Reason: Since he was in a place that transcended time he goes there because he didn't die. Things that die go to an afterlife. I'm thinking this place is called Zurvan because in the CC ending, Schala talks about how,"All dreams return to Zurvan". Things that are erased go to the Tesseract.
20. On a side note, the old 2300 no longer exists and tries go to the tesseract. That doesn't happen because Lavos and that whole disaster is being sent there. Hence, a timecrash. If 2300 went into the tesseract, than Lavos would have been spat back into reality during the time crash. To much stuff going into the Tesseract=Overload=some shit gets spat back out, and garbled at that. Kind of like a computer.
21.Schala, where ever she may be, does get sent into the tesseract. She wasn't erased, but was sent into the tesseract a non-erased being. This means she can still come out alive. Lavos is doomed here unless....
He merges himself with Schala. Making it possible for him to come back in a sense. However he is outside of existance the only thing for him to feed off of is existance itself, or time. Hence he is now the time devourer, eating away at all of space/time. Also, the queen died, so she isn't in the Tesseract. So in the end:
Erased lavos+live Schala+in the tesseract= TD
Reason: The only thing to prove here is that living things can enter the Tesseract even if they aren't erased. This happens when Serge goes to fight the TD.
Well thats all I'm going to come up with for now. That was like, my lifes work right there. I hope it all makes sense. And it will most likely be proven wrong by that dam waste paper basket at the end of time(I sure hope not). I'm sure its riddled with grammatical errors and things that make entire paragraphs unreadable. All I know is that I've spent well over 3hr. on this thing and boy am I hungry.
I wonder if I still got an of my... ...Soul McMuffin?
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I like this theory/whatever you wanna call it. I think it made alot of sense.
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That is an interesting explanation for the mirror images in the Black Omen. Lavos definitely harvests genetic traits from the earth's lifeforms, but I am intrigued by the possibility that it absorbs souls or spirits as well. In your theory, this could constitute the planet's energy (reminiscent of Final Fantasy VII), which Lavos absorbs.
One troubling point; the events of 12000 BC takes place in at least two separate time-lines. Crono and Magus were absent in the original timeline. The Prophet and the travelers only interfered in the new timeline created by their time-traveling.
Also, by "vortex" I assume you mean Pocket Dimension. There is a great deal of discussion of that topic on this site.
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That is an interesting explanation for the mirror images in the Black Omen. Lavos definitely harvests genetic traits from the earth's lifeforms, but I am intrigued by the possibility that it absorbs souls or spirits as well. In your theory, this could constitute the planet's energy (reminiscent of Final Fantasy VII), which Lavos absorbs.
I wonder, though -
Why would Lavos' fusion with Schala in CC be any different than "absorbing her soul"? If Schala dies in the orginal timeline, he would seem to already have it in his possession, correct?
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Schala was physically present in the Darkness Beyond Time. Lavos ended up there because its future timeline was cast into the DBT after the Day of Lavos. Schala was drawn into the dimensional distortion in the Ocean Palace.
The Darkness Beyond Time is the resting place of discarded timelines due to time travel. Why would someones "soul" go there under any circumstances. I think the Chrono Series has some sort of afterlife, considering all the presence of Toma and Cyrus' ghosts.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I wanted to say.
Schala dies, or is assumed to die, at some point in the original timeline, correct? In that case - if the above theory was true - Lavos would seem to be in possession of her soul in the original pre-CT timeline.
Thus, I'm curious as to how possessing Schala's soul - which it would in CT - is different than fusing with her in CC.
I did not mean to suggest that Schala's soul would go to the DBT.
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In the original time-line, I believe Schala isn't supposed to die at the Ocean Palace. Instead of using the "last of her pendant's power" to teleport the Prophet and Crono's party, she would have teleported herself (and maybe Zeal). Anyway, she had to survive so her pendant would pass on to Marle's possession.
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Indeed. That's why I said "at some point".
Unless Schala is off chilling out on some deserted island in 1000 AD still. :D
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Well, since she's entirely cut off from Lavos once the Pocket Dimension shuts at the Ocean Palace and the bugger retreats, I'm not sure why she would succumb to him in the Lavos Timeline.
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But Zeal was destroyed before any of the Time Travel medelling happened. The Masamune was created, this means that Melchior did throw the ruby knife into the Mammon Machine.
Mammon Machine overload= Lavos wakes up= Zeal is destroyed = Melchior, Janus, Gasper and Belthasar are teleported to different time eras.
I'm not just certain what would have happened with Schala. I'm a Schala fan ^.^ I don't think she died.
This possibility certainly allowes Schala to pass down her pendant. But if this was the case, then wouldn't another dimensional split occur?
Zeal is destroyed
/ \
Schala dies Schala lives to go into the DBT
I'm getting a really bad headache one. I wish I could explain more. I'll try tomorrow x.x
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You don't go to the DBT if you die. Only if you are deleted from time itself. So in the Original timeline Schala just plain dies and does whatever dead people do in the Chrono universe, which is some sort of afterlife. She is never sent to the DBT. And also Lavos never is sent there either, it either lives forever n earth until its energy is completly drained and dies with the planet or leaves after the energy is drained to go to another planet.
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Never said she goes to the DBT if she dies.
With the little crappy diagram i was trying to show that during the destruction of Zeal, there'd have to be 2 splitting off timelines thanks to Crono's interferance.
1) Schala dies either on Black Omen or gets out and dies later.
2) Schala was sucked into the Mammon machine, where she met Lavos in the DBT after he was defeated.
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Never said she goes to the DBT if she dies.
With the little crappy diagram i was trying to show that during the destruction of Zeal, there'd have to be 2 splitting off timelines thanks to Crono's interferance.
1) Schala dies either on Black Omen or gets out and dies later.
2) Schala was sucked into the Mammon machine, where she met Lavos in the DBT after he was defeated.
I was refering to the point that Lavos could have obtained Schala's soul after she died. I wasn't sure if that was resolved or not. Sorry :)
Schala had no way of escaping the Ocean Palace, and there is no visual reference to her being in the Omen. Your second item is most likely what happened.
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I was refering to the point that Lavos could have obtained Schala's soul after she died. I wasn't sure if that was resolved or not. Sorry :)
Schala had no way of escaping the Ocean Palace, and there is no visual reference to her being in the Omen. Your second item is most likely what happened.
I refered to the Ocean Palace as the Black Omen because it was the Black Omen.
I think she could have escaped the first time. If she had enough power to teleport 4 travelers out of the Ocean Palace, then she should have plenty to teleport herself and or her mother out of it.
And because there is no visual reference to her being in the omen doesn't mean my point isn't valid. It's like saying that Lucca was most definatly killed the Lynx, even thought we never see a flash back, or even see Lucca at the burning orphanage. We just have to assume things, and put some quotes from Lynx together.
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I was refering to the point that Lavos could have obtained Schala's soul after she died. I wasn't sure if that was resolved or not. Sorry :)
Schala had no way of escaping the Ocean Palace, and there is no visual reference to her being in the Omen. Your second item is most likely what happened.
I refered to the Ocean Palace as the Black Omen because it was the Black Omen.
I think she could have escaped the first time. If she had enough power to teleport 4 travelers out of the Ocean Palace, then she should have plenty to teleport herself and or her mother out of it.
And because there is no visual reference to her being in the omen doesn't mean my point isn't valid. It's like saying that Lucca was most definatly killed the Lynx, even thought we never see a flash back, or even see Lucca at the burning orphanage. We just have to assume things, and put some quotes from Lynx together.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the Keystone 1 timeline. Oopsy.
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Yeah lol, I should of mentioned that.
BTW, I kinda get confused.
Whats the difference between Keystone 1, Keystone 2 and the Lavos timeline? Well acctually I understand the Lavos one but what about the Keystones?
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I always thought (please dont criticise me lol) that Queen Zeal merges with Lavos briefly. They escape to the moon where they breed meteors and send them to earth, ultimately causing Chaos. A whole bunch of other crap happens, then in a little schism, Queen Zeal falls from Lavos and remains atop the Black Omen in her two forms, her corporeal and her mal-sanctal ( her....hand like form)
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Salvadeiro, how did you manage to arrive at that conclusion, that's a story I'd like to hear about.
Anyway, I'm also getting a little confused with the whole keystone 1 & 2 timelines along with lavos's.
just tell me if I got this straight.
Lavos Timeline - Everything in CT, up until Crono and co. kill Lavos.
Keystone 1 - The timeline that was created when lavos was killed/destroyed
Keystone 2 - Created by the timecrash,CC's timeline.
On topic, Why would Lavos's energy stay within the "vortex/pocket dimensions" when he leaves them (refering to the one time your theory claims he does this).
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About the Timelines Clowd, u r right so spread the word to those who dont know!
~LC, comin atcha loud and clear!
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No.
Lavos Timeline-Everything that happans before Crono's journey.
Keystone Timeline 1- The timeline created by Crono
Keystone Timeline 2- The Timeline created by the Time Crash.
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Sorry legend, I missed the Lavos Timeline mistake!
~LC, signing out and apologyzing to Legend...
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No.
Lavos Timeline-Everything that happans before Crono's journey.
Keystone Timeline 1- The timeline created by Crono
Keystone Timeline 2- The Timeline created by the Time Crash.
ok, so the lavos timeline is where Crono does nothing, lavos destroys the world, yadda yadda yadda. Now, Keystone Timeline 1 is created due to Crono's journey, ending in the destruction of Lavos, creating a new future.
now, to me, it appears that the only difference between the lavos timeline and the Keystone 1 timeline is that Keystone 1 contains the future where Chronopolis is created, while the Lavos timeline contains the destroyed future. Thus, making the only difference between the two weither or not Lavos is Destroyed, causing Chronopolis to exist.
so... yeah.... please correct me if I'm wrong, as you can see I'm new here.
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Yes, well, you're sort of right. But there are lots of changes in between, that are small changes when looking at the fate of the world, but big in terms of the characters themselves. For example:
Lavos Timeline: No forest in Zenan, Magus is worshiped in Medina Village, humans die of starvation in 2300 AD, etc.
Keystone Timeline 1: Forest is planted in Zenan, Medina Villagers worship no one, the humans live peaceful lives with FATE in the future.
See? There are differences. But, if you look in a universal point of view, your look is just as accurate.
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So basically, had Crono left everything alone, this would have greatly contradicted his destiny (the second timeline.)
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(the second timeline.)
What do you mean, Keystone Timeline 1 or 2?
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Sorry lol the First Keystone one.
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Yes, if he woulden't go to the fair, or at the very least not meet Marle the Lavos Timeline would still apply.