Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on February 07, 2005, 06:45:43 pm
-
Found; check replies below! Thanks to Swordmaster.
Things are not going to move smoothly until the quote about Elements drawing energy from natural power points is found. I've even stopped believing in it for the time being; please denounce this as an urban legend and find it within Chrono Cross somewhere. It isn't in the Steena/Direa questions, either.
-
Aw man, that's the one that I absolutely know is true because I've seen it. It's either from an NPC on White Dragon Isle (at some point) or from the decendant of Toma (also at some point) or perhaps one of his traveling companions...I'm just not sure I remember where or when it was. But it's true! I knew I should have wrote it down when I saw it...
-
Even if its just a word like "point," can you remember any of the terms? I'll search that entire script.
-
I think it is an explorer in one of the Divine water falls that say it.
-
Here is the transcribed scene. Disc 1, Another World, Divine Dragon Falls. This is a rare case in which Dragonite is accidentally used instead of Dragonian, but it isn't the only such occurrence.
[Demihuman]
Years ago, these falls were
considered a holy place
by the worshippers of the
Divine Dragon Faith.
Then hordes of humans began
to migrate to these islands
and we were pushed into
the outlying regions.
In the cultural takeover
That ensued, the spiritual
significance of places such
as this was soon forgotten.
[Demihuman]
In the old days, many of
my friends and fellow
believers would come
here to worship.
It was quite lively,
particularly during the
festival seasons.
How I miss those days...
[Explorer]
There didn't seem to be
anything worthy of note
inside of here.
Hey Caaptaaiin!
Let's head home!
[Explorer]
Ancient lore reveals that
the Dragonites knew of
certain land formations
they called Power Spots.
There they are said to
have used the natural
energy of the planet to
generate Elements.
Yo, Captain...!
Can we go home now?
[Captain]
It appears that the altar
at the back of the cave
was made to house the
Dragon Tear.
But the strange thing is
that there was only meant
to be one Dragon Tear in
this land...
...And yet the altar has
two holding stands!
I wonder what that
could indicate?
This place is
unearthly!
[Steena]
By the Great Dragon
Gods!
The sacrarium of the
Divine Dragon Falls
still exists...and
it seems functional!
It's just as the
legends of old said
it would be!
What a blessing!
Utilizing its power, we
just may be able to create
the "Chrono Cross" here!
Try placing a piece
of the Dragon Tear
on this stand.
Great Dragon Gods!
We are yet unable to
utilize the altar...?
I know that we need
the six Dragon Relics
that offer up divine
supplication...
Could 'that' legend be
true... Is there a
seventh dragon, and a
seventh Element...!?
We need the other piece
of the Dragon Tear before
we can accomplish anything.
-
Thanks 8)
But what conclusion we get with this piece of Information?
-
I just wanted to make absolutely sure of it. It'd be better to write the article with tones of fact and authority than "well, they might have forged elements at power spots...maybe."
-
But what conclusion we get with this piece of Information?
It proves that Elements are artificial.
-
But what conclusion we get with this piece of Information?
It proves that Elements are artificial.
Not necessarily (and it also depends on the exact definition of artificial). It could be that all it takes to "generate" an element is to dip your hand into a power spot, focus on magic just the right way, and an element will coalesce in your hand. In that case, it's pretty much natural.
On the other hand, if you have build a reactor on top of the power spot, place a crystal inside, let mana seep into the crystal, then heat to 400 degrees (Celsius, of course) at precisely 3.5 atm, then they're artificial.
-
Hmm...I guess that's the quote I was talking about...But, I was sure as hell that they called them power points, not spots...Hmm...I wonder if it's another quote I was thinking of?
-
But what conclusion we get with this piece of Information?
It proves that Elements are artificial.
Not necessarily (and it also depends on the exact definition of artificial). It could be that all it takes to "generate" an element is to dip your hand into a power spot, focus on magic just the right way, and an element will coalesce in your hand. In that case, it's pretty much natural.
On the other hand, if you have build a reactor on top of the power spot, place a crystal inside, let mana seep into the crystal, then heat to 400 degrees (Celsius, of course) at precisely 3.5 atm, then they're artificial.
Reptites were unable to use magic. And even dipping your hand in and focusing a certain way is still artificial. Artificial is anything not occuring naturally. Take a stick and tie a rock to the end, and you've made a hammer; you've made something artificial.
-
Anything to which I have to apply any energy to get it to work is artificial. A bowl of Cocoa Krispies doesn't make itself.
-
But what conclusion we get with this piece of Information?
It proves that Elements are artificial.
Not necessarily (and it also depends on the exact definition of artificial). It could be that all it takes to "generate" an element is to dip your hand into a power spot, focus on magic just the right way, and an element will coalesce in your hand. In that case, it's pretty much natural.
On the other hand, if you have build a reactor on top of the power spot, place a crystal inside, let mana seep into the crystal, then heat to 400 degrees (Celsius, of course) at precisely 3.5 atm, then they're artificial.
[list=1]- Unless the planet is spontaneously generating Elements like Materia from Final Fantasy 7, they must be manufactured by some process. The Dragonians created the Dragon God to control the natural energy of the planet. Elements must require a similar level of sophistication.
- I realize that's just an example, but I think twenty fifth century technology regarding Elements is a lot more sophisticated than that.[/list:o]
-
Well, if we start to focus on the word "generate"...
In the real world, power plants generate electricity. Electricity is a natural process (lightning bolts), but we need to do some work to store it in a useable form (batteries when not constantly generated).
If we extend this metaphor, Elements could be pure manifestations of the planet's energy (the planet has Volcanos, Icebergs, and Tornados naturally, right?). The Dragonians generate Elements, then store them somehow (I'm still thinking crystals/gems of some sort) so they can be cast as spells.
Disclaimer: I can't say if all the implications here were carried over from the Japanese version. Even if we did know what the Japanese version said, we'd probably need a native speaker to puzzle out all the implications.
-
Well, if we start to focus on the word "generate"...
In the real world, power plants generate electricity. Electricity is a natural process (lightning bolts), but we need to do some work to store it in a useable form (batteries when not constantly generated).
If we extend this metaphor, Elements could be pure manifestations of the planet's energy (the planet has Volcanos, Icebergs, and Tornados naturally, right?). The Dragonians generate Elements, then store them somehow (I'm still thinking crystals/gems of some sort) so they can be cast as spells.
Disclaimer: I can't say if all the implications here were carried over from the Japanese version. Even if we did know what the Japanese version said, we'd probably need a native speaker to puzzle out all the implications.
Let's not argue semantics.
Elements are not simply storage devices for natural energy. Elements are objects which perform a specific, carefully controlled function. "Blue Field," "Heal All" or "Diminish" Elements do not represent naturally occurring phenomena. Elements operate based on natural principles, like electromagnetism, but they are artificial creations, like a power plant or dry cell battery.
I don't think Elements store natural energy so much as control it. Reusable Elements appear to have infinite lifetimes, even after thousands of years of operation. Elements must be able to recharge or simply manipulate the energy in the environment,which makes sense considering field effects. I'd consider Elements to be more like capacitors. They build up energy over a short period of time and releases it.
According to Zeality, the translation of Chrono Cross is second to none.
-
Let's not argue semantics.
So, now we're not being literal? As opposed to when we were arguing about Spekkio's speech?
I'd also like to point out that people usually say this when they know they can't argue with it directly, so just skirt the issue. There is one valid argument you could make, but you probably wouldn't like it if I started arguing "your side" of the debate.
-
Do it anyway. If you've got a relevant piece of information, throw it out here and let's see what we can make of it.
I'm rather fond of the practice -- it tends to bring more complete solutions than if I just stick to one argument. I did it just yesterday, in fact, in an argument about the economics of the Empire. I argued for two positions in as many posts. And the debate actually got somewhere.
-
Alright, then. The counter-argument is that this character likely wouldn't think through all the possible connotations of what he says and would just say it, so we're overanalyzing.
The counter-counter-argument is that, if you don't take accents into account, everyone in the game speaks with perfect grammar. Writers take this small liberty in order to make it easier for the audience to follow. One effect of this is that whatever a character says likely has been thought over deeply for connotations and implications, so this argument does have merit.
-
The word 'generate' is rarely associated with natural pheonomenon. We don't say things like, "the clouds generate rain" or "trees generate leaves".
-
Generate is usually associated with some form of energy, but mostly electrical. Either way, we're talking about a natural phenomena (energy itself makes up everything in the universe, so we could say it's the most natural phenomena). Since the usage of the term is so limited, we may even be able to associate "Elements" with "Energy."
-
Unfortunately I don't have my Oxford English Dictionary, but this is good enough.
From Dictionary.com:
gen·er·ate Audio pronunciation of "generate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-rt)
tr.v. gen·er·at·ed, gen·er·at·ing, gen·er·ates
1. a. To bring into being; give rise to: generate a discussion.
b. To produce as a result of a chemical or physical process: generate heat.
2. To engender (offspring); procreate.
3. Mathematics. To form (a geometric figure) by describing a curve or surface.
4. Computer Science. To produce (a program) by instructing a computer to follow given parameters with a skeleton program.
5. Linguistics. To construct (a sentence, for example), as in generative grammar.
[Latin generre, genert-, to produce, from genus, gener-, birth. See gen- in Indo-European Roots.]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
-
What? I heard that the CC translation wasn't so hot, but I don't know if it had much to do with story-elements or not...I know that a lot of the Elements are fugged...and that Harle doesn't use a French accent.
-
Unfortunately I don't have my Oxford English Dictionary, but this is good enough.
From Dictionary.com:
gen·er·ate Audio pronunciation of "generate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-rt)
tr.v. gen·er·at·ed, gen·er·at·ing, gen·er·ates
1. a. To bring into being; give rise to: generate a discussion.
b. To produce as a result of a chemical or physical process: generate heat.
2. To engender (offspring); procreate.
3. Mathematics. To form (a geometric figure) by describing a curve or surface.
4. Computer Science. To produce (a program) by instructing a computer to follow given parameters with a skeleton program.
5. Linguistics. To construct (a sentence, for example), as in generative grammar.
[Latin generre, genert-, to produce, from genus, gener-, birth. See gen- in Indo-European Roots.]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
"Ancient lore reveals that
the Dragonites knew of
certain land formations
they called Power Spots.
There they are said to
have used the natural
energy of the planet to
generate Elements."
word replacement time!!:
There they are said to have used the natural energy of the planet to bring Elements into being.
There they are said to have used the natural energy of the planet to produce Elements as a result of a chemical or physical process.
Well, assuming "they" refers to the Dragonians, Elements were created through artificial means. Unless generate was really the wrong word to put there, they must not be natural. The Dragonians did "something" and brought the elements into being. Before the "something" occurred, only the Power Spots were there.
-
But by that logic, since a power station generates electricity, electricity can't be natural. I'll be sure to inform the government that lightning rods are unnecessary as the natural world is certainly uncapable of producing large amounts of electricity on its own--certainly not enough to create, say a bolt of energy.
-
But by that logic, since a power station generates electricity, electricity can't be natural. I'll be sure to inform the government that lightning rods are unnecessary as the natural world is certainly uncapable of producing large amounts of electricity on its own--certainly not enough to create, say a bolt of energy.
Name an element that is not tied in with the Dragonians and/or Power Spots.
-
But we never see any signs of Elements forming naturally. Nor does anyone mention them forming naturally. For example, in FF7(which seems to be the most-often-referred-to-parallel) there's materia formed by man in reactors, and then there's materia formed by nature found in hidden caves and such around the world. We don't find Elements growing in a cave anywhere. They're found in chests and from monsters and such.
-
We also don't see them being made; they're just there, left over from when the Dragonians made/found/produced them.
-
We also don't see them being made; they're just there, left over from when the Dragonians made/found/produced them.
But we know that they are made using the natural energy found in power spots. If they were formed naturally, wouldnt we run across some on the Zenan continent? Obviously not in the same form (game designs) but what about an equivalent? Can you think of any? I can think of none at the present moment. Again, its possible that nothing like it may exist because of the difference between the games, but its worth an observation.
-
Or maybe they're all over the place but Crono and co. don't know how to recognize them (particularly possible if they are more ethereal in nature).
-
Chronopolis and the Dragonians originated the system, and El Nido is bound to the success of the heroes of time. They wouldn't have existed in Chrono Trigger.
-
Chronopolis and the Dragonians originated the system, and El Nido is bound to the success of the heroes of time. They wouldn't have existed in Chrono Trigger.
Yes, but if the elements were formed naturally, Crono's success wouldnt matter - the elements would be found in and around power spots.
Where are the power spots on the Zenan Continent? Not sure, but there has to be at least one. The few places I can think of are the Heckran Cave, Fiona's Forest, Volcanic area around Tyrano Fort, Sun Keep.
The gigantic elements of each color found towards the top of Terra Tower are probably akin to a large-scale model of the everyday elements.
Also the Chrono Cross is definately fully recognizeable when you get it.
-
Just contain it and go for simplicity. There is no mention of elements or power spots in Chrono Trigger; the only things of this kind are the Rainbow Shell and Sun Stone, artifacts imbued with planetary energy (no color or anything). Chronopolis devised the Element system by dividing up the Dragon God according to colors; it was arbitrary. It then terraformed El Nido, meaning it was responsible for the placement of Power Spots (solidifying the case that they aren't natural (in the sense that they arose out of normal geo...something) and were part of El Nido's paradise). Chronopolis also apparently engineered the concept of the Element Grid for use by non-intelligent species and humans alike, and made everything compatible. The Dragonians then forged and developed them over the years. It is thought that one of the reasons Porre takes so much interest in the little archipelago of El Nido is because of Elements and their easy activation. (In other words, Chronopolis/Dragonians created Elements, engineered El Nido to support their development, and made them in El Nido for years undisturbed.)
-
But the Chrono Cross is a special case. It's a mix of all the other elements, and one can't necessarily determine what the ingredients look like from looking at the final product. Example-- table salt: you can't just look at table salt, and figure out what Sodium and Chlorine--the components it's made out of--look like.
-
Just as the Dragon God is sort of a generic, all-encompassing planetary power. Though the Chrono Cross too is a blend of the Elements, it also has root in ancient, singular artifacts.
-
Ah, but what if the Dragonians brough this technology/technique to the Chronopolitans? We can't really say that it wasn't the Dragonians that influenced Chronopolis rather than the other way around, now can we?
-
Even if the Dragonians were the ones who originally had the elements, Chronopolis defeated them and then incorparated the Elements and Dragonians into El Nido.
I already thought that it was the Dragonians' technology first, anyway.
-
Electricity as we use it is NOT a natural occurance. It's generated.
DC is naturally occuring, AC is manmade.
Lightning is DC.
-
We don't "generate" energy, we simpley take one kind of energy and turn it into something else. Like Jane from "Speaker for the Dead" said: "That's why I love you, you can do anything as long as I organize the circumstances for you." (Or something to that effect).
-
Technically We still "generate" electricity in the same way we "create" plastics. It may require using one thing to make another because you are right energy can not be created or destroyed only changed or transfered.. but the energy was not electricity until we got a hold of it.. meaning we generated it.((sorry for the post in a dead topic..))