Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Daniel Krispin on June 08, 2005, 01:58:36 am
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I was just looking at one of Starky's lines regarding this particular artifact. Now, it is specifically stated by FATE that the Frozen Flame is the essence of Lavos. But see Starky's lines:
00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\
|
This seems to imply that the Frozen Flame is something inherently connected with the very origin of the Universe. Through the comment by FATE, this then demands that Lavos himself is far more than a simple parasite, but rather had some hand, or springs from, the very origin of the universe itself.
This, however, appears to go against Lucca's assertion of its parasitical nature. So, who knows more? FATE and Starky, or Lucca? And what does this mean for what Lavos truly is?
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interesting, but where does sparky say that?
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I've been attempting to figure that out myself. I found it in the script dump that ZeaLitY posted just a short while ago; it stands alongside a host of other character specific lines, where each of them says their own space about the Flame. I would have dismissed this to be something cut from the actual game, but it sparked some memory, and I think I've seen it in the game before, once. ZeaLitY, it seems, also knows this, so plainly it does occur at some point... but on replaying I was unable to see it. Moreover, I've only every heard this one, Starky's, a character I rarely used, which was odd. I've never heard any of the others say anything akin to what they are meant to (mostly, it seems, the Flame revealing and/or tempting them with things.)
But sufficed to say, both I and ZeaLitY remember it as having been said, so it likely is at some point or another, even though I cannot remember exactly how to get it (I think it likely to be atop Terra Tower, even though a replay did not yield the lines: it is in the same 'room' as all the other dialogue from that segment.)
Anyway, any other ideas on what this might mean? Just to add to what I said before, unless FATE was purposefully trying at deception, her words must be taken as more true even than Lucca's in Chrono Trigger: FATE is corrupted by Lavos, thus presumably has greater knowledge of its history and true being even than that fabled inventor. In this I am referring specifically to what she says regarding the Flame, that it is the essence of what fell from the heavens in prehistoric times. Thus the Flame is almost without doubt the essence of Lavos (save for two cases: FATE does not know Lavos, which would be strange considering her corruption and essential control by that being; FATE was purposely attempting to deceive. Though for the latter, it does not seem to me that there is either reason or purpose in such a thing in the hall of the Flame in Chronopolis.)
The other two lines pertaining to it are of Starky and Lucca. These two essentially seem to contradict (though I suppose resolution could in some measure be possible.) Starky's is posted above, and speaks of the Flame, thus Lavos, as mirroring and echoing, even containing, the Beginning of the universe. To counter this is Lucca's statement of its parasitical existance, and the insinuation through this that it is not sentient. That last, however, I have before thrown into question, with Lavos' apparent high technology and bio-engineering capabilities, both of which hint at not only sentience, but extreme intelligence. I suppose this means that Lucca is not claiming Lavos to be an unfeeling parasite, merely that this is its way of conquest. Different than any earthly lord would do, for certain, but Lavos is not of the earth, thus it would be odd if he follows the same ways of war and conquest as humanity would. After all, it is ancient and, seemingly, immortal in the sense that it does not die naturally (or at least has a span of life exceeding 100 million years) - I think that somewhere, in fact, Lavos is called the Infamous Immortal. But essentially, Lucca does not see Lavos as much more than a conquerer and enemy, whereas Starky sees echoes of the very origin of the universe in this thing. It might be assumed that, for all her technical aptitude, Starky has a far greater understanding of the universe and of science than even Lucca does, so is it he we should believe. Would he know and understand such a thing as the Flame as clearly as he seems to?
This leads to the question: what then, is this thing? I have always held Lavos to be something of a lord: mighty, terrible, and dark. A dark Lord of an older fantasy vein. Is not the Flame then his Ring? But apart from such things of my own seeing, it seems now apparent that Lavos may be far more terrible than a parasite, and that even before his change into the Time Devourer, was mighty beyond measure. He has some darker purpose or origin, perhaps, than has yet been revealed. Maybe a terror born into the universe at the beginning, a nightmare of a fledgling world that has haunted it since its inception. Or maybe yet an echo of the chaos of the beginning, a Tiamat who has not yet had a Marduk to vanquish it fully. And, it seems, destined to be the End of all things, if Starky is to be believed. Is he then perhaps evil itself? All the more reason to look to Chrono Brake with anticipation, I suppose.
So, what do the masters of the Compendium say to this? Has this ever been explored?
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Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!
Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?
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Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!
Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?
That matters on what game you are talking about. If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos. It happened to Schala, so I don't see why the opposite couldn't happen.
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Well, although Starky might be an authority on space, science, and the like, I'm not sure if he would be an authority on Lavos, or the Frozen Flame. Maybe he was saying simply that it reminded him of such things.
But thats not to discount it. It could be hinting at Lavos' origin, which we know next to nothing about.
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Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!
Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?
Don't mind me: I always draw those parallels. You should see the 'Lavos the Dark Lord' thread over at Chronicles: I didn't begin it, but much of that idea was because of me. I've seen Lavos as a Sauron-like character (though not as Melkor, his folly and deeds were different) for every-so long, probably since I wrote him as such in my writing. The connections are manifold, though coincidntal: the Flame to the Ring; Zeal to Numenor (and see also how both sovereigns are undone by a quest for immortality - the Queen in CT, Tarkalion in the Akallabeth - both are influenced by a demon of sorts, and both empires are echoes of Atlantis). Melkor, Morgoth after the Oath and Feanor's insurrection against the Valar, was a little different, though I suppose Lavos' twisted creations may be likened to the beasts that Morgoth creates.
But about what you are saying... it would be facinating if indeed it was all an act of vengeance, a grand play of one thousand million years that even the time-travelling heroes could not understand, seeing but a part of it. What if there were other things involved? Perhaps he is the Janus of the universe, and the earth is not unlike the men of Guardia he killed while gaining his strength to kill the greater evil of Lavos - an incedental and neccessary death, long to the eyes of Man but only a whisper to his patient lifetime. A story within a story. Well, it is likely not the case, but an interesting thought that you had, nonetheless. What is interesting, also, however, is that it is said: 'must one destroy another world in order to save one's own'... is his own world in some peril? Is Lavos a saviour to his people? So many questions. And how does this all tie into the last - very weird to my eyes - speech of Schala's in CC?
That matters on what game you are talking about. If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos. It happened to Schala, so I don't see why the opposite couldn't happen.
Very true, of course. Lavos' reason and understanding may all be part of Schala's influence (save of course for his apparent technology in the CT next-to-final battle.) Considering the TD was extra-temporal, this would indeed fit in with him being at the beginning and at the end of the universe because, essentially, he was not in the universe proper. I tend to think it is not wholly because of this, but it is certainly a viable option.
But anyway, from the way these things strike me, I think that Lavos may perhaps be the devil of the Chrono universe. If you look at the other quotes for the other characters besides Starky you see temptings of darkness, echoes of evil and ruin and suffering, all contained with the Flame and Lavos - things from such disparate events that it seems that the lifeblood of evil runs through and from him.
Some may maintain Lavos' innoccence in unawareness but, you see, the problem with Lavos being unfeeling is this: the Frozen Flame is essentially Lavos, and echoes who he is. That much is given. If he were a parasite, un-sentient and all, he could not be truly evil, as he would have no intent. Likewise, then, the Flame, as the essence of Lavos, could not be fully evil. Yet it is, and this shows more clearly than anything else what Lavos is, and how his mind is. The Flame is clearly evil - Fargo says it, and it is made manifest several times - like the Ruling Ring (think of the temptations of power, and of glory, that the Flame gives, akin to that of that Ring!), and as the essense of Lavos shows that Lavos himself must be truly evil, and thus truly sentient. He cannot then be a simple parasite - he acts parasitically, that is doubtless, and he can thus be named a parasite, but that is not all he is. He is evil. He is a tyrant. He is, for lack of a better word, a fell and dark lord, with purpose and reason.
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Since all life began at the most primitive stages of life, I think that Lavos could still be a parasite and still be from the creation of the universe...Perhaps he was a starting point or mearly a brief result...Or perhaps Lavos did not exist at all at first, but there was only the Flame and Lavos sprung forth from it...
I recall the quote too...That's not Starky's FF quote? What about when he gets the Star Fragment or something?
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I suggested in another thread that the Flame was not just the Ring in mythological terms, but also in practical ones -- as with Sauron, the Flame contains part of Lavos' power. I also postulated the Frozen Flame's recovery as being key to the Home/Another split -- if Serge lives, the path of events he takes as Arbiter means that the Dragon God recovers the Frozen Flame and gives it to Lavos, restoring his full power and ensuring that when 1999 rolls around, the Magnificent Seven can't beat him. No amount of Time Bastarding can resolve the connection between Chronopolis and Lavos, thus creating the paradox.
The actual idea of Lavos as a Dark Lord came from Daniel. I thought about it and was like OMGWTF IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE LOL!!!1eleven!!1!!1!! Then I went to Chronicles and started the 'Lavos the Dark Lord' thread, which ended up being over twenty pages.
When I saw Lavos' core, I was reminded of rather farfetched biotechnology used by certain races in science fiction, and certain commonalities that have to be present for storytelling's sake. The Vorlons and Shadows, two incredibly ancient races hailing from Babylon 5, use this type of technology to great effect against the level of technology displayed by B5 races, although they don't stand up to the Empire, and certainly not to other science fiction settings such as the Culture. Star Wars has several races which use these implements, most notably the New Jedi Order series' fanatically religious Yuuzhan Vong, which in fact base their entire culture on hatred of technology and are experts in genetic engineering, possessing equivalent creatures for everything that Star Wars tech can do. The Force-sensitive Aing-Tii monks use similar ships, as well as the ancient Rakata from Knights of the Old Republic. Each of these races' natures have certain profound implications for the heroes of their series. In Babylon 5, we find out that the First Ones are gods, in a sense, instructing the younger races in a hidden war through telepathy and other venues. As for the Yuuzhan Vong, on top of the considerable military challenge they posed to the New Republic/Galactic Alliance, they represent a moral dilemma for Luke Skywalker's new Jedi, as they are unable to be conventionally sensed in the Force. The Rakata were responsible for building the Star Forge, an entirely mechanical shipyard/battle dreadnought imbued with a soul and using the life energies of its builders for power, but the Rakata's hateful and selfish imperialism caused the Forge's soul to absorb their negativity and turn to the dark side, effectively wiping them out. Organic technology, though, isn't too terribly realistic from a scientific perspective -- for that reason, extra "oomph" must be added to its emotional impact to make it seem like it was created by or possesses some form and depth of understanding that we can't even begin to comprehend at our current level of development. Otherwise, it won't seem believable.
In CT, Lavos represents a grave challenge to the heroes' very origins and motives, as it is responsible for the current state of affairs on this planet. In possessing all of its abilities and knowledge, Lavos is a being actually capable of directing evolution and spacetime itself -- perhaps the ultimate feats. He is quite simply the ultimate being -- in effect, he's managed to evolve into a God. Creating entire ecosystems full of creatures and shaping them to his liking is an imperative reserved for such a stature. Lavos' very nature is blasphemy to any person who subscribes to the theology of any Abrahamic faith, and as Guardia was most likely Christian or some equivalent of it (check the PSX ending FMV for the crosses) that provides an extra imperative for the heroes to boot him back to whatever sorry-ass planet he came from. For the three party members possessed of no religion, they're motivated by their friendships, something Lavos trivializes in favor of evolutionary progression.
As far as the Lord of the Rings parallel, folks who've only seen the movies will think that Sauron is basically the essence of bad, and in that time period he is basically the chief of Evil Town. What they don't know is about the tales told in the Silmarillion, which I still haven't gotten around to reading all the way through, and of the aforementioned Melkor/Morgoth. Being a god was basically what Morgoth and his ilk desired, much like Lucifer. Just as Lucifer seduced a third of the angels to his desires, Melkor decided to go out and get people like Sauron to do his dirty work. As many parallels as Sauron and Lavos have, it's scary to think that Lavos ever could have had a master -- or worse, that there could actually be an entire race of "Lavoids" of which Lavos is merely one member. Consider this: Lavos, as a baby Lavoid, survived a 100 TT impact straight into Earth's surface without so much as a scratch on the paint job. And he's one member of that race. Assuming that Lavos' shell was some kind of ship meant to shield him, it terrifies me to think about what a Lavoid race could construct. Their military vessels might even surpass those of the insanely advanced Culture novels by Iain M. Banks. A little background on the Culture: In science fiction Versus communities, it's commonly recognized that Star Wars is pretty much the benchmark in terms of weapon power. Lavos' 100 TT figure is comparable to several mid-sized Star Wars capital ships -- and that's an extremely conservative estimate, considering that he had enough energy to create a Pocket Dimension immediately afterwards. The actual figure for the shell probably ranges well into the petatons, which outstrips most midsized Star Wars ships, falling into the range of smaller heavy cruisers. However, when someone wants to decisively beat the Star Wars setting, there's only one thing to do -- bring out the Culture. Their ships are capable of doing such insane shit as hiding inside a star and traveling 300 TRILLION times the speed of light. However, the ships aren't alive. Lavos has a will of his own. If the shell is in fact part of his being, then in all likelihood a Lavoid military vessel would have a will as well, possibly the collective will of many Lavoids managing many aspects of the vessel.
As far as Starky's quote goes, Lavos has basically achieved the goal of all sentient life -- to become a god unto himself. What lies beyond that is a bunch of FUCKING EXTREME SHIT I made up for CE.
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If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos.
It was taken from Chrono Cross, and guys, you should take a look at this. :wink:
Lucca: The true beginning was during the destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Zeal! As the palace collapsed around her, Schala was sucked into a dimensional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine. Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devourer of Time. Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence. Yet at the same time, the other half of her mind desired to save the universe and to be rescued herself.
Marle: A new species is about to be born on this planet -- an alien life-form even more evolved that the old Lavos! At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala came under the influence of Lavos, and the two became one entity. It is now up to you, the one whom the Frozen Flame has chosen as its "arbiter"... You alone can decide how the new Lavos, which has encaged Schala within it, will evolve from here! Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death.
Schala wasn't the one influencing Lavos's feelings, Lavos was the one influencing Schala's feelings! :o :wink:
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In CT, Lavos represents a grave challenge to the heroes' very origins and motives, as it is responsible for the current state of affairs on this planet. In possessing all of its abilities and knowledge, Lavos is a being actually capable of directing evolution and spacetime itself -- perhaps the ultimate feats. He is quite simply the ultimate being -- in effect, he's managed to evolve into a God. Creating entire ecosystems full of creatures and shaping them to his liking is an imperative reserved for such a stature.
Interesting.......... Man was created in the image of God.......... The image of Lavos!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
Love and Hate.
Life and Death.
Humans have the same characteristics of Lavos in terms of emotions. If humans actually recieved their trivial differences (from the Planet and the natural creations of it) from Lavos, then this means that Lavos actually had the capacity to love and to hate. In effect, Lavos was the first "human", with the characteristics and ideas that its "children", the human beings that we know of, have. Lavos could have been a "human" in every way with the exception of its physical appearance and DNA.
Crono: Humans are such fragile, disjointed, imperfect things. Love and hate... Life and death...
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I could be wrong here, but don't Love & Hate (not to mention Life & Death) exist in 65,000,000BC before Lavos falls?
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I could be wrong here, but don't Love & Hate (not to mention Life & Death) exist in 65,000,000BC before Lavos falls?
Heh heh heh. :)
Well, life and death existed.
As for love and hate, it could have been in a different context.
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http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?p=9293&highlight=#9293
Did anybody notice that Schala discounts all of those quotes about the Frozen Flame? :)
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Depends on how you define love and hate. Supposedly, they formed in relation to the Dreamstone. It's unclear if Lavos was involved, but Ayla had Dreamstone before Lavos landed, which seems to suggest that love and hate existed as conscious thoughts rather than as primal instincts before Lavos came. It clearly does not mean purely sexual love, as that has been going on since long before the concepts of freedom of choice and intellectual fulfillment came along -- most likely it means brotherly love. But what exactly is hate? Lavos clearly has a crapton of it stored up.
Love and hate are concepts the planet, and the universe, understand well. The planet hates that which attempts to disrupt the natural order of things (Lavos). It takes its rage out on humans. When you have two opposing godlike beings vying to manipulate you every single day, it's easy to see why humans are such disjointed, fragile, imperfect things. The entire series is a metaphor for the sentient experience -- Lavos and the planet's spirit probably represent two different aspects of humanity. I'm not sure, though, which one represents cold logic and which one represents unbridled emotion. Both are unhealthy extremes -- but as imperfect as humans are, a few seem to have found the balance. Those humans will create the new life for the universe.
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If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos.
It was taken from Chrono Cross, and guys, you should take a look at this. :wink:
Lucca: The true beginning was during the destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Zeal! As the palace collapsed around her, Schala was sucked into a dimensional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine. Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devourer of Time. Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence. Yet at the same time, the other half of her mind desired to save the universe and to be rescued herself.
Marle: A new species is about to be born on this planet -- an alien life-form even more evolved that the old Lavos! At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala came under the influence of Lavos, and the two became one entity. It is now up to you, the one whom the Frozen Flame has chosen as its "arbiter"... You alone can decide how the new Lavos, which has encaged Schala within it, will evolve from here! Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death.
Schala wasn't the one influencing Lavos's feelings, Lavos was the one influencing Schala's feelings! :o :wink:
My point ------------------------------------------------------ You
I know about that and how Schala is changed by Lavos's influence. What I was saying is that because of the fusion, some of Schala's feelings and emotions were fused into Lavos. Thusly giving Lavos emotions of love, trust, pity, and all the other "good" human emotions.
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Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos.........
But it specifically states that it is Lavos's emotions. :?
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Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being
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Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being
Yay! Someone knows what I am talking about, I thought I was going crazy for a second there.
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Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being
I understand what you are saying, but the "hate and sadness" came from Lavos, right?
That was all I was saying.
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Umm... Isn't it stated in the game that to keep all her good emotions eg love, purity etc. from being overwhelmed by Lavos' evil and sadness she sent out Kid with all of them >.>
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But its stated that Kid have a side that want return everything to nothing.
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00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\
|
If you didn't see that in the game, maybe it was from the Chronicles forum? I remember stumbling upon a topic about this quote there.
Anyway, how are we sure that Starky's talking about the Flame? When he says...
"The liight of the big baang! All starts from heere"
...perhaps "here" just refers to the Big Bang, not the Frozen Flame.
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But why would he say that when he sees the frozen flame? Thats the question.
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But why would he say that when he sees the frozen flame? Thats the question.
Apparently, the Flame shows to the party everything they want to see (or on the contrary, don't want to see...), like some music or something to Nikki, Dario to Riddel, the Hell's Cook to Orcha, Ghetz to Greco, etc. So maybe for some reason (like exploring many different planets) Starky wanted to know what was the origin of the universe.
I believe we have the same problem for Zappa's quote :
00118 (L:00224.H:00004)
+----------------------------
|\Zappa\:
|Aye... These auld bones have
|seen countless faces of the
|flame in mah lifetime...\NE\
|But with this un, ah cannae
|say ah've ever seen more
|pure and genuine hatred...\Ptr\
|
Is he talking about "the" Frozen Flame, or something else?
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The Frozen Flame is a piece of Lavos. If the Frozen Flame has some connection with the Big Bang, then Lavos would have to have a connection, too.
00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\
Interesting thought.
The Time Devourer was attempting to annihilate the entire space-time continuum.
Belthasar: The Devourer of Time is a new life-form... Born out of the fusion of a life-form from this planet with Lavos, who nests on the far side of the dimensional void. In the far-off future, when the fusion becomes complete, IT will awaken... Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time continua... Despair and hatred... To return all things to nothingness... That is what IT desires.[/u]
This is clearly what Starky means by "all ends here", but what about "all starts from here"?
What could this mean???????????????????????????????????????????????????
..........................................................................
The entire Chrono story has suddenly become very[/b] weird. :?
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Here is another thought:
Maybe the Tesseract was once (or still is) a kind of "Land of the Gods" or something? It exists beyond all space-time, so it could be some kind of eternal dwelling for greater beings that observe the entire universe and the progression of the many different dimensions and histories that exist within it. They may even orchestrate and guide the flow of the space-time continuum.
There could have been a rogue "God" who desired something different from the other "Gods". This may have been Lavos. This would prove that Lavos did indeed originate from some kind of "Godhood", and this also poves that the Frozen Flame has a divine power. Not to mention, it would also explain how everything begins and ends at the Tesseract. Lavos could have been a "fallen angel".
ANGELUS ERRARE - Where Angels Lose Their Way.
IMPORTANT: This is just speculation! Don't flame me!
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That delves heavily into the issue of the actual theology of Chrono, which hasn't been explored very extensively. My take on it is that if Lavos was indeed a true God, two things would be nonexistent: 1) the need to evolve further, and 2) the possibility that anyone could beat him, save for another god of similar stature. However, it's virtually inarguable that Lavos craved power, and had abilities similar to those of the Entity, the only other godlike figure in the series -- and even it was in danger of being destroyed by Lavos. The Entity, though powerful, is a consciousness confined to Earth and the immediate vicinity and as such is apparently not a true God, either. There is a possibility of some type of universal force, but it's unclear how Zen-like in concept such a thing would be.
There are, however, a number of more classical supernatural occurrences in the series that, to all appearances, have nothing to do with Lavos in anything but mechanics. Garai and Cyrus linger after their deaths and are able to physically interact with mortal beings, and several undead enemies such as spirits and ambulatory skeletons lacking accompanying muscular or nervous systems are present. Special relativity dictates that energy with a propagation rate of c, presumably including disembodied spirits, cannot interact in real time with the physical universe. Yet the spirits in Chrono, and almost every other story where ghosts are present, defy special relativity and engage in open dialogue utilizing higher thought processes that require nerves to carry out. The FATE computer, ironically, has some knowledge of the mechanics of souls, as Lynx tells Serge that he put Kid's soul to sleep. It is also stated that Chronopolis has the technology to facilitate the simulation of souls within sentient lifeforms. In order to create a facsimile of such a thing, one would have to know what it contains, indicating that the FATE computer possesses sufficient knowledge and technology to work around special relativity. This is perhaps a consequence of Belthasar's research into time -- he might have found out some vital link between time and the soul. One would think that Lynx is BSing and just pumped her full of sedatives, but she's unable to wake up long after any available sedative should have expired.
The Tesseract, from what we know about it, is not a place that can be accessed in a purely material form. Rather, it is most likely a reservoir of whatever energy lies behind the universe, holding the data for every annihilated timeline. Lavos was banished here in spirit form after he was destroyed, but he apparently has such a mastery of time and of spiritual energies, whatever the hell those actually entail, that he was able to hold on to a form of consciousness and construct his body. Even if it is only data, from what we know about the Tesseract, it can manifest physically given the right conditions. The Tesseract may have something to do with Zurvan, the sea of dreams, as well, but I'm tired and I'm going to take a nap now.
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Lots of this discussion connects with some talk about the character of Starky:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=566
Seeing as he comes from some type of advanced species, how much knowledge would he or his people have about Lavos? Does he recognize the Flame, or is his character response just like the others in which the Flame triggers an idea of memory? What is Starky doing in El Nido? Doing research on Lavos or scouting out the planet or what?
After all this talk, I find Starky's character much more interesting than I once did...
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Lots of this discussion connects with some talk about the character of Starky:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=566
Seeing as he comes from some type of advanced species, how much knowledge would he or his people have about Lavos? Does he recognize the Flame, or is his character response just like the others in which the Flame triggers an idea of memory? What is Starky doing in El Nido? Doing research on Lavos or scouting out the planet or what?
After all this talk, I find Starky's character much more interesting than I once did...
If one can take one of the joke endings at face value, he was an advance scout for invasion - but when he comrades arrive he appears to have gone AWOL. But of course, that is not a 'true' ending.
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'Twas a funny ending -- I LOLed the entire time. But the thing is, if we don't have anything they can use, why bother invading us unless they need space for manufacturing plants?
And does someone have any idea of how a ghost works, either within the realm of physics or with regards to how they use "higher" energies to completely override it? From what we see of the Epoch, special relativity still applies in Chrono. So how come dead people can kick it in the nuts?
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Special relativity dictates that energy with a propagation rate of c, presumably including disembodied spirits, cannot interact in real time with the physical universe.
What does relativity have to do with ghosts?
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Quite a lot, actually. Time slows for an object approaching c, and theoretically stops completely at c. The only thing that does travel at precisely c is energy, which is what ghosts are presumed to be composed of. To a consciousness present within that frozen time, the entire history of the universe, which under several theories can be said to be unending, would pass by in an instant. No interaction in real time would be possible. Lawrence Krauss's entry in The Physics of Star Trek on the problems with energy beings explains it a lot better than I can, but that's the jist of it. Only given godlike powers could ghosts interact in real time, and if this were the case there would be virtually no chance of defeating them in a fight.
Another problem arises in that ghosts in Chrono, and almost every other story where they are present, are able to exert quantifiable forces on the physical world i.e. attacking party members. Compounding this with the fact that no mechanism is known even insofar as to facilitate their existence as shown, disembodied spirits are as devastating to classic scientific principles as a goatse/tubgirl super king kamehameha AOL double spam attack is to someone's psyche. Their composition would require a completely nonsensical type of particle. Their bodies' constituent particles are solid enough to reflect light. However, they do not appear to be bound closely by gravity, as many of them demonstrate flotation capabilities, again without a known mechanism, but they are bound closely enough to planetary gravity to stay generally here.
The best thing I can think of is that, being once again rendered part of a universal consciousness by dying, they're more connected with the universe itself and can make subtle alterations to Zurvan to work as they do. After all, when the universe is a giant dream, anything can happen.
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Ghosts are supernatural or metaphysical entities, and knowing nothing of their physical properties, I wouldn't attempt to describe their behaviour using modern physics.
Quite a lot, actually. Time slows for an object approaching c, and theoretically stops completely at c. The only thing that does travel at precisely c is energy, which is what ghosts are presumed to be composed of. To a consciousness present within that frozen time, the entire history of the universe, which under several theories can be said to be unending, would pass by in an instant. No interaction in real time would be possible. Lawrence Krauss's entry in The Physics of Star Trek on the problems with energy beings explains it a lot better than I can, but that's the jist of it. Only given godlike powers could ghosts interact in real time, and if this were the case there would be virtually no chance of defeating them in a fight.
First of all energy is a physical property, not a tangible substance. For example: a particle has energy; a force field (see below) has energy. By definition, there is not such thing as pure energy.
Light is a particle/waveform which has a quantified amount of energy depending on its wavelength. The speed of light in a vacuum is about 3*10^8 m/s, which is the cosmic speed-limit. As you stated, as an object approaches c, time slows down. This is troublesome for any object with no mass, which would travel at light speed.
I don't think a spirit could be made out of light because waves pass through each other with no reaction, making it impossible to from a cohesive system. (Photons do not collide) Thus, the time dilation of a light-based entity is not of concern.
My theory is that the ghosts seen in the chrono series are made up of an exotic form of matter, or matter which exists in another spatial dimension and weakly interacts with normal space-time. Such an entity would have mass, so there would not be any relativistic considerations.
Another problem arises in that ghosts in Chrono, and almost every other story where they are present, are able to exert quantifiable forces on the physical world i.e. attacking party members. Compounding this with the fact that no mechanism is known even insofar as to facilitate their existence as shown, disembodied spirits are as devastating to classic scientific principles as a goatse/tubgirl super king kamehameha AOL double spam attack is to someone's psyche. Their composition would require a completely nonsensical type of particle. Their bodies' constituent particles are solid enough to reflect light. However, they do not appear to be bound closely by gravity, as many of them demonstrate flotation capabilities, again without a known mechanism, but they are bound closely enough to planetary gravity to stay generally here.
The best thing I can think of is that, being once again rendered part of a universal consciousness by dying, they're more connected with the universe itself and can make subtle alterations to Zurvan to work as they do. After all, when the universe is a giant dream, anything can happen.
Ghosts may weakly interact with normal space-time. An incorporeal entity does not have to be in physical contact with an object to react with it. Force fields (electromagnetic, strong, weak, gravitational, etc) exert forces on objects which are not physically touching. Ghosts can radiate because they are visible. I'm not sure there is a case of reflection in the series.
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As I said, Krauss explains it better than I can. I probably misstepped somewhere along the line. "Pure energy" beings are a common sci-fi and fantasy cliche without any real physical consideration behind them. I'm aware that there's no such thing as pure energy and that it's a physical property, but light behaves much differently from other "substances" and thus warrants different treatment as far as its quantifiable energy goes -- light alone possesses none of the types of energy seen in matter.
Bosonic particles are able to occupy the same space at the same time, but I'm not entirely sure if they're not able to react with each other. But as far as ghostly force fields go, that may be approaching a good explanation, but GARAI SMASH!!!1!!!1!!!1!!!! doesn't look or act like a force field.
That theory of ghostly existence sounds a lot like Diablo or Final Fantasy VII's Lifestream, where separate realms interact with the one we know to produce magical effects.
I had a friend once who claimed to have met an archangel and talked with him -- specifically Azrael, the Angel of Death. Force knows I'd love to put that under a test tube. I would say she's a little nutsy, but given that my dream last night, the first one I remember in a while, was a strange combination of Due South, Star Wars, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, and my own twisted life, I've got no room to talk.
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I had a friend once who claimed to have met an archangel and talked with him -- specifically Azrael, the Angel of Death. Force knows I'd love to put that under a test tube. I would say she's a little nutsy, but given that my dream last night, the first one I remember in a while, was a strange combination of Due South, Star Wars, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, and my own twisted life, I've got no room to talk.
Wow, that's quite the odd combination.
Anyway... Azrael? I've never seen the angel of death given any name in any Biblical book - I suppose it may be in the Apocrypha, which I do not know. Is it? Because so far as I know, the only ones ever named are Michael and Gabriel. And 'angel' is only an interpretation anyway for 'messenger' (aggelos, where the double gamma gives the ng sound of English.) Thus any angel of death would simply be the 'messenger of death'... needless to say, that would be a frightening herald to speak to.
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I've heard that the name Azrael is Muslim in origin -- which is very odd, because it fits with the -ael -iel scheme of angel names and because the person is a devout Christian. It might be the Apocrypha -- I don't know, either, because I've never read it.
The dream, I think, primarily stemmed from my viewing/playing choices before bed. That and I'd gone almost cold turkey on medication, but Mom forced it down me. I want to get away from home ASAP, but money, as always, is an issue.
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As I said, Krauss explains it better than I can. I probably misstepped somewhere along the line. "Pure energy" beings are a common sci-fi and fantasy cliche without any real physical consideration behind them. I'm aware that there's no such thing as pure energy and that it's a physical property, but light behaves much differently from other "substances" and thus warrants different treatment as far as its quantifiable energy goes -- light alone possesses none of the types of energy seen in matter.
Could you quote some of Krauss' explaination?
Bosonic particles are able to occupy the same space at the same time, but I'm not entirely sure if they're not able to react with each other. But as far as ghostly force fields go, that may be approaching a good explanation, but GARAI SMASH!!!1!!!1!!!1!!!! doesn't look or act like a force field.
No, electromagnetic waves will pass through each other completely unchanged.
Every force is transmitted by force fields. The impact of a sword is the electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of the sword and the target. The physical and chemical properties of the sword are determined by the electromagnetic forces acting between its atoms, and the strong and weak forces acting within the atomic nuclei. Atoms and subatomic particles, being point masses, do not come into direct contact.
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Well Garai was not destroyed, he merely ended the fight. So maybe he was just testing Radius's strength, seeing if he was worthy of taking the Einlanzer.
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Then again, light is a bit nonsensical itself, since it requires no medium like other waves -- hence the photon, and in turn the larger classification of boson, was theorized.
Could you quote some of Krauss' explaination?
OK. First, Krauss explains Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism and the following implication that electromagnetic waves exist. We of course know v = f * lambda with regards to wave velocity, and if it's a wave then that formula should be applicable to it. Using that formula on EM waves, Maxwell got a speed of c and pretty much ended the particle/wave debate. Then he moves to Einstein's realization that the only way all EM waves can travel at the speed of light is if the speed of light remains the same regardless of the observer, hence the name relativity. Here's the actual quote:
"By the same token, not just light but all massless radiation must travel at lightspeed. This means that the many types of beings of "pure energy" encountered by the Enterprise, and later by the Voyager, would have difficulty existing as shown. In the first place, they wouldn't be able to sit still. Light cannot be slowed down, let alone stopped in empty space. In the second place, any form of intelligent-energy being (such as the "photonic" energy beings in the Voyager series, the energy beings in the Beta Renna cloud in The Next Generation, the Zetarians in the original series, and the Dal'Rok in Deep Space Nine) which is constrained to travel at the speed of light, would have clocks that are infinitely slowed compared to our own. The entire history of the universe would pass by in a single instant. If energy beings could experience anything, they would experience everything at once. Needless to say, before they could actually interact with corporeal beings the corporeal beings would be long dead."
The first part proves that ghosts have to be made out of some other particle than light. Dark matter, perhaps? Its summoning and utilization is said to be a Shadow ability -- theoretically, introducing enough dark matter into a person or object will exert enough antigravitic force to tear it apart painfully, hence the attack's extreme damage. Enough antigravity emitted by an object could conceivably render an object invisible, or nearly so. However, it would take an extraordinary amount of antigravity to accomplish this, considering that according to Krauss the gravitic force at the surface of the sun is sufficient to bend light by a fraction of a degree so small I'm not willing to type out all the zeros to accommodate it.
The bit about experiencing everything at once also comprises the only factual basis for out-of-body experiences.
No, electromagnetic waves will pass through each other completely unchanged.
Every force is transmitted by force fields. The impact of a sword is the electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of the sword and the target. The physical and chemical properties of the sword are determined by the electromagnetic forces acting between its atoms, and the strong and weak forces acting within the atomic nuclei. Atoms and subatomic particles, being point masses, do not come into direct contact.
Exactly -- however, no currently known particle can both do this normally and exhibit the properties we see in ghosts.
We know one thing now: ghosts aren't made of light or any wave claiming c as its velocity. The Lavos in the Tesseract, however, is presumably a spirit form of some sort. I'd guess that now we need a section on the physics of the Tesseract with regards to entities.
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Well, if you want to go into the String Theory, it's possible that ghosts are just a new way the strings interact in all of their dimensions. Or the theory of the universe being one ginormous string stretched out to near infinity and parallel universes etc etc. That could be a good explanation for ghosts and the alternate dimensions in CC. Reading all this kinda makes me wonder if the writers and developers had all this in mind when they made the games or if it's just over analyzation by fanatical fans.
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This may have already been said, but I didn't read all 3 pages, just the first one... I just wanted to make a comment on my thoughts regarding Lavos.
It was interesting what was said earlier about the Frozen Flame being like the Ring... Kind of makes me wonder if Lavos wasn't so much like Sauron, but more like the Nazgul. That is, the Nazgul were GIVEN their Rings, and succombed to the temptation of power.
In that sense, Lavos could have simply been an alien being (the humanoid creature you find at the core) who was tempted by the Frozen Flame's power, took it (or was given it), and it corrupted him. Its power may have allowed the giant shell-like thing to grow on him, and he sort of would have mutated into what we know as Lavos.
I know that's far-fetched, but hey, it's a thought. Also, regarding Starky... We can't really discount his knowledge of Lavos. He may have come from another world which Lavos already destroyed. Humans couldn't escape earth on the Day Of Lavos due to technology limits, but Starky's race very well could have.
Just food for thought. It's something to chew on, eh? :)
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Just clearing up some things :wink:
When we talk about pure energy, usually we are thinking about EM waves. Actually, those EM waves (any energy, actually) can be woven. Well, better say that could be woven if we knew how. The particle interaction can be "entagled", making them to keep their quatum states. If you want to have ghosts, here is your best bet (this is the property they want to exploit to get quantum computers, btw). Ideally you would be able to entagle photons themselves... if you had a being created by this entaglement, even thought the photons wouldn't be the same along its existance, the structure would remain: the photons would move still at the speed of light, but the being could stay stationary.
Bosonic particles can go into condensed state precise because, under certain conditions, quantum mechanics determine they will become "transparent" to each other, that is, no interacting at all. So nothing prevents them from occupying the most stable state, that is, lowest energy state.
Also, actually, forces are transmitted, not by fields, but by interaction carrier particles: photons, gravitons, gluons and bosons W+,W-,Z0. Force fields would be just a measurement of the flux of these particles in every point of the space.
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This may have already been said, but I didn't read all 3 pages, just the first one... I just wanted to make a comment on my thoughts regarding Lavos.
It was interesting what was said earlier about the Frozen Flame being like the Ring... Kind of makes me wonder if Lavos wasn't so much like Sauron, but more like the Nazgul. That is, the Nazgul were GIVEN their Rings, and succombed to the temptation of power.
In that sense, Lavos could have simply been an alien being (the humanoid creature you find at the core) who was tempted by the Frozen Flame's power, took it (or was given it), and it corrupted him. Its power may have allowed the giant shell-like thing to grow on him, and he sort of would have mutated into what we know as Lavos.
I know that's far-fetched, but hey, it's a thought. Also, regarding Starky... We can't really discount his knowledge of Lavos. He may have come from another world which Lavos already destroyed. Humans couldn't escape earth on the Day Of Lavos due to technology limits, but Starky's race very well could have.
Just food for thought. It's something to chew on, eh? :)
Still like Sauron, then, or perhaps Melkor. The former was himself tempted by a greater lord, the Vala Melkor. The latter became darkened of mind before the beginning (and drew many other of the lesser Ainur into his burning wrath with him) because of his desire to bring to life things of his own thought, and for timeless ages wandered away from the dwellings of the Ainur in the halls of Iluvatar, across the void seeking for the Flame Imperishable - which he could not find because it was with Iluvatar. It was this desire that drove him to bring discordant melodies of his own into the Song.
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This stuff about ghosts and physics is ridiculous. They're GHOSTS! Who said they had to be made out of any sort of energy at all. They can be in some ethereal realm outside reality and be manipulating the minds of mortals psionically to create an illusion that they're pseudo-tangible beings.
I'm going nowhere near the Lavos=Sauron stuff XD does that make Serge Frodo?
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Call me a jew who sees thing a bit too late... But that stupid hedgehog tries to take on the role of god. He gave life to mankind, and then he takes it away. Perhaps he had done so to every Planet with life in it. So perhaps in the Chrono universe only "living" Planets can have Life-Forms? And Lavoids are drawn to these, give power to the mightiest race and then destroy the Planet? Beacuse I think Zeal could of been Lavos' greatest moment and also the essence of his downfall. Had he not messed with the Zeal royal family and Gurus, Crono and his gang would of never recieved the gifts the were given by the three: The Rainbow, Epoch, Masamune, the Time Egg and much much more. The Pendent would of never reached Marle, and thus never would the CT journey begin. He tried to make a people of his own ,much like God with the Jews, but like all the jerks who tried to be God, he bit the dust.
Anyway, back to buisness. If Lavoids journied to "living Planets", one could say that they are the essence of all life. Though he would be wrong. On the contrary, Lavos is a poison to the Planet, a destructive force of life. Then maybe Starky (Who is amusingly enough an adavance scout for an alien race out to destroy Earth) thought of it in the wrong way? A universel, but still oddly Human point of view?
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Call me a jew who sees thing a bit too late... But that stupid hedgehog tries to take on the role of god.
Oh, I know. And that's not even the worst: he triest to convince others to do the same. 'Attain immortality through me'... and following it they are destroyed. And the paradise is thus forever lost. Seriously, this delves right into the ancient follies of Genesis, whether Babel or Eden.
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Well, the reason they end up destroyed isn't because of the endeavor itself, but rather because good people find what they're doing objectionable and kick their arse.
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The hedgehog itself is but the spaceship. The one who wants to be like God is the humanoid. As we all do. We all want all the power we can seize, because we know we are not gods.
Lavos kept the planet, the human planet, under tight control. Strieving for control. Would a true god need to fight for such control? A true god has control over anything that needs to be controlled, allowing for free will.
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To Hadriel: But that itself is the actings of fate, which is the will of God, thus making it God's judgement on the proud.
The thing is, in that desire to rule over and dominate other wills... in that Lavos is a dark lord, or at least a thing fallen to a major corruption. That, I think - or at least says so on the synopsis - is one of the primary themes of the Silmarillion: the conflict between free creative art from inherent talents and the desire to dominate other minds and wills, and bend them to one's own. That was Morgoth's folly, I think.
The hedgehog itself is but the spaceship. The one who wants to be like God is the humanoid. As we all do. We all want all the power we can seize, because we know we are not gods.
Lavos kept the planet, the human planet, under tight control. Strieving for control. Would a true god need to fight for such control? A true god has control over anything that needs to be controlled, allowing for free will.
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The hedgehog itself is but the spaceship. The one who wants to be like God is the humanoid. As we all do. We all want all the power we can seize, because we know we are not gods.
Lavos kept the planet, the human planet, under tight control. Strieving for control. Would a true god need to fight for such control? A true god has control over anything that needs to be controlled, allowing for free will.
Yeah, I know, that's why I said Lavos is stupid. And I reffer to him in the Hedgehog, rather then "the little humanoid in the Hedgehog". You were right about God, though. He has complete control of the world, and dosen't any stupid Frozen Flames to control over the world.
So, to make this entire page short: God rules, Lavos dosen't.