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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Harle's Fate and Connection to Kid/Schala and the Dragon God/Time Devourer

« on: November 21, 2011, 08:46:51 pm »

There's been a brief look at the connections between Kid & Harle, as well as their connection to the moons, but I'd like to explore that a little further and make some hypothesis about Harle and her relationship to Kid and the Time Devourer, as well as her fate in the game, since I've yet to see anyone investigate past the presumption that she merges with the Dragon God, despite the fact that it's not directly seen. This is also a loose spinoff looking into motives for a connection in the physical similarities between Lavos & the Dragon God (which was my first thread here), but that will become apparent fairly soon. There are a number of hyperlinks in the text that should serve as sources for the information if there're any questions on the details.




After the real Dragon God was originally a singular plasma life-form, which was a living accumulation of the planet's energy that was consumed by the Time Devourer. Because of this, it would presumably have access to Schala's genome to create a daughter-clone in a similar way that Schala did. The fact that the Dragon God's remaining physical avatar is a quasi-entity that it uses to appear in this dimension. The fact that it bears some physical resemblance to Lavos also seems to hint at some sort of crossover of information between the two entities. If the Dragon God's physical avatar resembled Lavos, it would make sense that when it also generated another daughter-entity it would resemble Schala/Kid. What's interesting is that this relationship suggests that Harle and the Dragon God are both a single entity, as well as two individual entities, much like the Time Devourer.

The Dragon God's physical avatar was split into the six individual plasma life-forms (known as Dragons) by FATE in, order to control the Elements. This shows that their natural state is when they're merged. When Chronopolis was temporarily shut down during the magnetic storm, the six Dragons combined to create Harle. Since (given this translation) Harle is then not a broken piece of the full Dragon God like the other six Dragons, she is a unique entity that's separate from the Dragon God, while also being a part of it. She's still considered the "7th" or "Dark Moon Dragon" (a connection to her Japanese name being Tsukuyomi), but Belthasar even refers to her as their child, which makes her innately different than them.

Some proof of this can be seen in the ending "Return of the Downtrodden". The Dragon God wipes out humanity, and (some years) later, Harle is seen in El Nido, eventually flowers at Cape Howl. The dwarves mention that the Dragon God is watching over them, which would suggest that The Dragon God still a complete entity as seen earlier on just as it was when it first merged, even though Harle (the 7th Dragon) is not merged into it.

This also brings up the question as to whether of not Harle would have needed to merge with the Dragon God at all, or once she delivered the Froze Flame to the Dragon God, was she free to do as she pleased as an individual entity. We see her vanishing upwards to deliver the Frozen Flame to the Dragon God, but unlike with the other Dragons, we don't see her merging with them. The most insight comes again from Belthasar's quote, "The seven dragons travelled across time to reunite into a single entity." The phrasing strikes me as odd (though it may just be the translation), because it states definitively that "they travelled" but only states their intention to unite as a single entity, not whether or not it was completed. Harle may not have merged with the Dragon God at all, but rather fled into hiding after delivering the Frozen Flame to Terra Tower. If that was the case, she would likely have stayed away from the party after abandoning them to fulfil her mission, and is emotionally distraught over the Dragon God's goals as well, as we see in the "Return of the Downtrodden" ending.

Essentially it comes down to the question of whether or not Harle appears in "Return of the Downtrodden" because the Dragon God is still alive, or in spite of the fact that it is still alive. ]This is where the text in the game seems to have a bit to offer.

When confronting Kid before she takes the Frozen Flame, Harle says the following,

"NO! Stop. Don't touch it. Kid! I know the feelings you have inside of you. The urge to bring everything to nothing is now stronger than your desire to save everyone. You may want to throw yourself down the cliff to destruction. That's your imperative... But please, Kid... do not drag Serge and the others down into destruction with you."

This is interesting, because it offers up the fact that Harle seems to know the feelings that Kid has, which are also the same feelings that Schala is harboring. This also points to an innate connection between the two involving Schala. When Kid refuses, and Harle is knocked to the ground, the Dragons leave their individual resting places and gather together.

Water: FATE has fallen, FATE has died!
Fire: Finally, the time has come.
Green: Indeed... The long, endless night shall finally come to and end.
Earth: Now... For mankind...
Black: I shall make you bleed!!!
Sky: Feel a million years of this planet's agony, pain, and suffering...!!!

Harle then awakens as they begin to merge together, leaving with the following comment,

"I feared it would come to this. I didn't want to have to fight with you if it could be avoided. Goodbye, Serge."

This marks the last time that we see Harle, but both her attitude here, as well as a quote from Belthasar about her purpose seems to pain a picture of the Dragon God.

"Five brother* stars that correspond to the five colored dragons, ruling like gods over the night skies... One moon that corresponds to the white Sky Dragon, and another darker, daughter moon to counterbalance them."

*The term brother is used, despite the fact that the Dragon's gender is only 3/5ths Male.

Due to Harle's disposition towards Serge, and the humans in general evident in her above dialogue, as well as her role in "Return of the Downtrodden" it's clear that Harle exists as a foil to the Dragon God's sentiment towards humanity. Any proof of Harle joining with the Dragon God is going to be evident in this attitude, which brings us to the dialogue at Terra Tower. The first, and potentially most disturbing in the text seen as you climb the stairs towards the top of the tower.

"A-ARRGH... HELP... S-STOP IT... KILL ME... WELL COME... Welcome... Humans... Those who know the torment and joy of creation also know the pleasure and pain of destruction. Therefore all that pass through here must be prepared to share the burden that I carry."

Given that this dialogue lacks a direct source, it gives the impression of Harle attempting to communicate to them, as well as her own individuality being overcome into consciousness of the single entity of the Dragon God.

"In order to survive, all living things in this world fight desperately, and devour those they defeat... Must one kill other living things in order to survive? Must one destroy another world to allow one's own world to continue? The wounded in turn wound and torment those weaker than they themselves are... There are only the killers and the killed... The sinners, who are judged, and the victims that do the judging... What meaning is there to such a world?"

This, to me, is the largest representation of Harle's counterbalance in the Dragon God's persona. This mirrors her sentiments that we see in "Return of the Downtrodden" almost exactly, and seems to be definitive proof that Harle has indeed merged with the Dragon God.

Kid's response to this is,

(paraphrased) "Whether there's meaning or not, we just keep living. You have no right to deny that."

Which elicits this harsh reply from the Dragon God.

"I will cleanse this blue planet of you filthy humans once and for all."

(and after its defeat)

"Now I shall truly awaken again... This too is destiny..."

To wrap things up, it's worth making this comparative analogy; Kid/Schala is to the Time Devourer, what Harle is to the Dragon God. Harle and the Dragon God are both quasi-entities that are being projected from the original Dragon God (absorbed by the Time-Devourer) from the DBT. The Dragon God's projection bears subtle physical resemblances to Lavos in the same way that Harle bears subtle physical resemblances to Schala/Kid. Each one also exists as a counterbalance to the other, and is a separate entity while also being part of the whole.

Given this relationship, and all the information above, we should be able to definitively say that Harle merged with the Dragon God, and when defeated, she fell back into the DBT with the Time Devourer. Whether or not any aspect of her was reabsorbed by Schala in the TD, is likely to fall into the same questionable area of whether or not Kid and Schala merge at the end of the game.




Anyhow, hopefully this is fairly clear and accurate, and provides some insight that hasn't been quite so thoroughly investigated before.


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus/Guile & Schala/Kid

« on: November 21, 2011, 04:06:00 pm »

While there have been a few topic on this matter, I didn't feel as though any of them were the proper tone that I was looking for, so I decided that this would best be addressed through a new topic. I was looking through the text from the ending of Chrono Cross, and something struck me as rather interesting. Here's the full text for reference:

Thus, the curtain closes on another tale
An eternity has passed...
Fleeting dreams fade into the distance...
All that is left now
Is me and my memories...

But I'm sure we'll meet again,
Someday, you and I...
Another place, another time,

It's just that we might not realize
That you are you and I am me...

Let us open the door to the great unknown,
Come across another reality,
And live another today...
Even when the story has been told,
Life goes on...

Until we meet again,
Take care of yourself, my friend...
Forever yours,
Schala "Kid" Zeal

Specifically it was this line that caught my attention:

"It's just that we might not realize
That you are you and I am me..."


While there is a lot of emphasis placed on Kid looking for Serge, and Magus looking for Schala at the end of CC, this line brings up something different. It isn't suggesting that they wouldn't recognize each other, (which would be the largest fear in an attempt to search for one another another time/place), but that they wouldn't recognize themselves. The interesting thing is that both Guile and Kid don't seem to (refuse to) recognize themselves as Magus and Schala during CC. In the the CT-DS ending, Magus is specifically shown suffering amnesia, which seems to suggest a stronger connection between himself and Guile (that's been at varying levels of officiality in Chrono Cross), and Kid and Schala's connection is more explicitly noted. In addition to that Guile and Kid's physical appearances in CC are also different from those of Magus & Schala's in CT, which also fits with the general idea of forgotten/lost self-identity that's being referred to in the final letter.

While I'm not sure if it offers any additional insight, I figured that it was worth mentioning.


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono Cross Ghost Children related to characters in the Dimensional Vortex?

« on: November 21, 2011, 03:00:49 pm »

It could work, but then there's the issue that Crono and such visit the dimensional vortex before defeating Lavos. Except that they don't, because it's a New Game +...except that they do, because the Gates are still functional (they close after CT).

Since that's all vaporous, then I think we can go ahead and write our own theory in this case, just for a thematic tie-in. So yeah, I think this is pretty cool. We should put it int he next analysis review.

Even if my initial reasoning isn't completely perfect, I'm glad I've got the topic rolling on this again, because it's something that feels more intentional the longer that I look at it; with the temporal locations of the Dimensional Rifts, as well as the specificities of the three characters who appear as Shades. I'll be sure to check out the main CT-DS discussion and give it a read through and see if anything else comes to mind (though perhaps one of you might be able to craft a slightly more solid theory from the little bits and pieces that I've brought up).


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono Cross Ghost Children related to characters in the Dimensional Vortex?

« on: November 14, 2011, 07:29:48 pm »

It's good to know that there's possibly some merit to my hypothesis. Do you know if there's anyone who I might be able to postulate some ideas at, or who might be able to look at the possibility of refining this, so as possibly to expand the listing of information in the encyclopedia on said Ghosts?


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono Cross Ghost Children related to characters in the Dimensional Vortex?

« on: November 09, 2011, 09:12:06 pm »

While most entities should fall into the DBT, I think that the section on the Time Crash Shift discusses the anomalies that take place in the Dead Sea. There are also probably some oddities that come along with splitting off a section of a frozen, aborted timeline and the three of them being time travellers not involved in that instance of the timeline, that I'm not too sure I have the full understanding to explain at present.

It's also worth mentioning that within the Dead Sea where we find the Ghosts of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca, because of the Time Crash it contains the Sea of Eden from 12000 BC, Nadia's Bell from 1000 AD, and Chronopolis from 2400 AD. In Chrono Trigger, the Dimensional Rifts that tear open containing the Shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca appear at 12000 BC, 1000 AD, & 2300 AD. I'd hypothesize that the Dimensional Rifts are being torn open into Another World during the event of the Time Crash, since it's the main temporal anomaly, and the Time Devourer is still in its early stages.

I'd be stretching to explain WHY the shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca aren't swallowed into the DBT, but it may be because Chrono, Marle, & Lucca travel into the DBT to confront the Dream Devourer. Since their aborted timeline selves aren't able to exist alongside their real selves inside of the DBT (related to the Time Bastard theory), the three of their shades are essentially trapped into a state of partial existance in the Dead Sea, rather than being able to enter the DBT and be consumed.

I feel as though my explanation is a ways from being perfectly correct, but I think that the right pieces are there.


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono Cross Ghost Children related to characters in the Dimensional Vortex?

« on: November 08, 2011, 07:39:06 pm »

So, I was wondering about this today, and read through a couple of articles, and figured I'd toss out a hypothesis. I managed to find this thread (I know it's old, but there's a few comments in here that are worth mentioning). but wasn't able to find any other information on the subject, so if this has been discussed at length before, I apologize for missing it. Anyhow, here goes:


The Home World Dimension was created in 1010 A.D. when Serge survives, thus creating two Dimensions of Home & Another World. According to the Armageddon-Branch Theory the only Chrono that exists, exists in Another World, because during Chrono Trigger, that is the only dimension (up until the end of the DS credits).

According to the mechanics of the Time Crash Shift's unique type of time travel, it caused certain points in time to become part of the same region of other points in time. This explains why when the three Dimensional Vortices rip through into Another World (in the CTDS after credits) that they appear in vastly different times, (12000 BC, 1000 AD, & 2300 AD), because from the Dead Sea, these times and regions are all intertwined indistinguishably into the same location. This would mean that the Alabaster, Steel, & Crimson Shades are, in fact the Ghost Children in Chrono Cross seen at a different point in their own contained, aborted timeline. The CC party seeing them when they're younger, and the CT party when they're the same age as their counterparts. Due to the nature of how time does (or doesn't) flow in the Dead Sea, it's difficult if not impossible to tell if there's actually a conceivable passage of time outside of the Dead Sea itself that would determine the appearance of the age of the three Shades. Due to the way that time and space is knitted together, they could conceivable be any or all ages at once, and just manifesting in a particular form at random, since they're just echoes of Marle, Chrono, & Lucca in a region of a Dimension where they don't properly exist.

Because their echoes exist in the Dead Sea, which is a location where discarded information and time are all merged together, this might also explain why they, have such intimate knowledge of so many different things that have and haven't happened, since they exist in many times at once (and none at all). This would also explain why once defeated by their other selves in Chrono Trigger, they merge together and awaked latent powers in themselves- they're connecting the Another World original with their Home World/Dead Sea counterpart that contains knowledge and other effects from being exposed to the Dead Sea Time anomaly.

Anyhow, thoughts?


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Site Updates / Re: Current Events

« on: November 12, 2008, 09:22:37 am »

I dunno whereabout to post this exactly, but there's word that Chrono Trigger for the DS is supposed to have a new ending.

http://kotaku.com/5081731/chrono-trigger-ds-has-new-ending


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Comparison of Lavos and the Dragon God Anatomy/Origin

« on: January 01, 2007, 08:38:04 pm »

(Let me start off by saying MASSIVE apologies for this thread revival. I haven't really been online a lot lately, and remembered this place when I was opening some things today and found my CT game, and had a gew ideas to contribute)

There is always the possibility that it wasn't an entirely intentional result. It may be that since it was integrated with Lavos, when it's projected into their dimension, it bears similiar traits of him just due to the fact that it's become a part of him. Again this is if the Original Dragon God didn't appear to look exactly the same. It may be that the similiarities are something like a reflection from Lavos' influence from the other dimension, and Schala may have been carried along with it (thus Harle's image) as she's trapped in TBD with Lavos. Thus no motive because it wasn't unintentional.


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos' Impact

« on: July 08, 2006, 07:40:44 am »

The above quotes only represent the fact that after 1999 Lavos reproduces and has the Lavos Spawn as offspring. It's never stated if Lavos is in fact the first of it's kind. The part about him being injured and regenerating in PD-1 was briefly mentioned before, but I like the point that you brought up with the Frozen Flame, and it's regenerative capabilities. That's something I hadn't thought of. I should probably break out CC and play through it again, since my knowledge of it is really rusty. I've spent more time, and played through CT a lot more times which might be a little bit apparent from my theroies, though it'sbeen about a year since I've played either.


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos' Impact

« on: July 08, 2006, 12:36:26 am »

AuraTwilight: (The Sea of Zuruvan is the Sea of Time 1, 2) That's a really interesting idea on Lavos, and I admit that I like it quite a bit except for the fact that I like to think that the Lavos / Lavos Spawn you fight in CT are the only ones of their kind so there's not a possibility of the events recurring. I'll go over this in more detail in just a bit.

As for the Red Star, I have a few more quick points to bring up. This MAY just be a subtlety that's not specific in translation.

[Man]
   Red star in sky.
   See during daytime!

 [Woman]
   Red star grow strong!
   Bad sign...

The fact that it's visible during the daytime - can it still be seen at night? If not it suggests the gate theory a little more strongly. The main point outside of this is from two of our main characters - Lucca and Robo. They both reach a similiar conclusion - It appears that the immense energy that Lavos radiates alters time and creates Gates. This would (likely) mean that if there WERE more than one full grown Lavoid, it would also cause distortions in time. If in fact it were born/created and it's power continued to grow and distort time into the first Gate (the Red Star) until it actually ripped out of it's own time and fell. This also suggests the fact that the Lavos that fell was full grown upon impact. Unless the Lavos Spawn continue to grow and advance through their travels through space (to the point where upon impact they are already capapble of distorting reality), Lavos was likely the only one of its kind.


Sentenal: Frog is the only one who suggests it will burrow underground, Ayla just comments that it's already underground, and it's extremely fast. I'm not saying that no part of Lavos never impacted, as we know this for a fact to be untrue because of the Frozen Flame. If it did open a pocket dimension, my point was that it wasn't fast enough to prevent all damage done to him (kind of like a really big object flying through a small door) so that most of the damage would be to his exterior and superficial, something though could be regenerated. Also, in the great amount of debris that would be hurled into the air, it's not likely that it would be that simple to determine if Lavos was physically burrowing or sinking into a pocket dimension. Either way, you're left with a huge amount of debris and clouds of dust.

If you don't like that idea still there's always the possibility that the beam he generates from its 'mouth' could have provided some amount of force to slow him just before impact, as well as created a massive hole for him to burrow into with frightening speed. My main point is I'm trying to develop a logical way that something like Lavos could survive the fall, yet still manage to the damaged by Chrono and Company. Also, there's a large fire where Lavos impacted which suggests to support this theory.


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos' Impact

« on: July 06, 2006, 09:21:27 pm »

Ok, since that'sbeen accepted as a relatively good explanation, I was wondering if anyone knows how long the red star was around before Lavos' impact, cause I have a few ideas on that as well, but a lot of it depends on how long the red star was around. Though Lavos is a pretty large creature, it's un likely that Lavos would be visible before re-entry, but if it was only the re-entry, the 'star' wouldn't last for very long.

Now the idea that it would be the destroyed world it was leaving would make sense but even if it was around for several years that would mean one of a few things. The world would either need to be relatively close, or Lavos would need to be travelling close to the speed of light which seems unlikely due to the damage it would inflict upon Lavos upon impact with the atmosphere, let alone the surface before it could escape into a pocket dimension. The biggest problem with this idea is the fact that though the world would have been raised to mostly ashes by it's predecessor, it likely would have made an explosion that would last long enough to create a long lasting object like the red star since the Lavos Spawn still reside there before leaving. There is a possibility that the explosion could be a result of them leaving the ashen world however.

Another idea is if you remember that the time gate that you use to reach Lavos is dark and red, and it COULD be that it was thrown out of another dimension / time / world into ours. Depending on the duration the red star appeared it could be a time gate that was opened, and unknown where it lead to, and it was forced out. This would explain why entrance into Lavos' dimension is distinctly different than travelling to another period in time as well as the fact that has the capability to create pocket dimensions upon landing, but still has a reason for analyzing DNA. This idea is more based around the idea that Lavos could have a greater history, and leaving an opening for a pre-CT game explaining it's origins, but it's probably the most far fetched of the ideas.

Another thing that this brings up is if Lavos was fully ready when it came down. The exploding world theory means that Lavos would have been no larger/more powerful than any of the other Lavos Spawn when it impacted because it would be leaving another world in the same way, and it only seems to advance itself from drawing the information from other lifeforms, which there don't seem to be too many of in the long space travel over unless it was information it had obtained from it's predecessor. If it was a gate, that would provide a logical explanation of how it obtained the ability to create a pocket dimension upon / during impact that's different than the other ones used in CT, regardless of it having analyzed only things from this world.

What it really breaks down to is if Lavos is spawned (the exploding world), or created (the red gate). Since we don't really know that for sure it's 50/50, but I like the created theory more as it leaves Lavos as a sole entity, and leaves the possibility of the universe being destroyed by Lavoids every small. (after all FATE, time, and everything/one else has had a hard enough time coping with just one of them.


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Lavos' Impact

« on: July 03, 2006, 11:04:11 pm »

I'm aware that this is discussed in some detail on some other areas of the forums, but hopefully this idea will be enough to warrant it's own thread. According to the Encyclopedia, PD-1 is created upon Lavos's landing on the planet. I'm not sure the exact reference in game to confirm that  & it would be much appreciated if someone could fill me in on that as it might scrap this whole theory. I'm wondering if it could be possible that PD-1 would have been created upon or immediately prior to impact, shunting him into another dimension, and allowing Lavos to avoid a great deal of damage from the impact. Not to mention that it has time to heal if it did in fact take significant damage upon hittting the planet. This would explain Chrono & company's ability to damage it as well as it being able to withstand seemingly impossible amounts of damage from impact. Perhaps it fired one it's various attacks right before impact to give that extra split second it needed to escape into PD-1. Maybe even shredding a hold into another dimenstion was enough to cause the destrustion to the Reptites...

Anyways, just a bit of theorising, and I wanted to know what the rest of you thought.


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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Comparison of Lavos and the Dragon God Anatomy/Origin

« on: March 10, 2006, 01:42:06 am »

So then would it be safe to say that the relationship is not merely artistic in nature??

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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Lavos - Dungeons and Dragons conversion

« on: March 09, 2006, 02:21:42 am »

This is really nice. Well done. Do you have a way of dropping the power version for a Lavos Spawn by chance?? I'll have to look at the different stats more closely later tonight, but you've done an excellent job!

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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Comparison of Lavos and the Dragon God Anatomy/Origin

« on: March 08, 2006, 11:43:42 pm »

Chrono'99 - Thanks for all the game quotes, they've really been helpful.

My main question that I'd like to get a couple more opinons on is - if the Dragon God's appearance is directly an influence of TD, or if it could be due to SOME similiarity in it's and Lavos' origin, or if it's merely an artwork scheme with no other connection.

(On a related note, do you think that there's any similarities that Lavos Merges with Schala and the Dragon God merges with Harle?)