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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Chrono Team Versions in Home World exist!
« on: September 05, 2006, 11:38:48 pm »
Which is why I apologized because I didn't make it through the entire thread. And I apologize again.
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Chrono Team Versions in Home World exist!
« on: September 05, 2006, 05:32:39 pm »
I'm not sure if this has already been said, but if you talk to the Lucca "ghost" before going to the DBT to kill the time Devourer, Lucca very clearly says: "I'm sorry, Kid, we no longer exist in this timeline."
Meaning, that Marle, Lucca, and Crono all bit the dust in the Home timeline. I'm trying to remember when the timelines split... 1010, right? Since the fall of Guardia was in 1005, and if Crono and Marle died then, then they're gone for good, no matter how the timelines merge.
Of course, I have an idea about Porre. Lynx was an agent of Porre, supposedly, right? Is it possible that Porre's assistance "from beyond the normal flow of time" was part of Project Kid? It gave Lynx a reason to be in El Nido and talk with Viper..
But I still can't remember if he was part of the Porre thing. Porre's invasion of El Nido might've been necessary for Serge to finally end up at Opassa Beach (to get the TD)... so, is it possible that in a new timeline, Porre would not be a military power and Guardia would not fall?
Meaning, that Marle, Lucca, and Crono all bit the dust in the Home timeline. I'm trying to remember when the timelines split... 1010, right? Since the fall of Guardia was in 1005, and if Crono and Marle died then, then they're gone for good, no matter how the timelines merge.
Of course, I have an idea about Porre. Lynx was an agent of Porre, supposedly, right? Is it possible that Porre's assistance "from beyond the normal flow of time" was part of Project Kid? It gave Lynx a reason to be in El Nido and talk with Viper..
But I still can't remember if he was part of the Porre thing. Porre's invasion of El Nido might've been necessary for Serge to finally end up at Opassa Beach (to get the TD)... so, is it possible that in a new timeline, Porre would not be a military power and Guardia would not fall?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« on: September 04, 2006, 11:01:58 am »
I think the Armageddon-Branch theory is correct, because the idea seems to be supported in Chrono Cross.
I think we are misinterpreting what is said in Chrono Cross.
As I look over it again...
"On the time line that existed
before history was changed,
Lavos was assumed to have
slept deep below the planet's
surface..."
If, in what I saw before, you kill Lavos underground if you use the Black Omen, then you kill Lavos before he surfaces, and Chronopolis might not be aware that he sleeps under the ground.
" On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins."
Point: Lavos didn't necessarily apprear on the surface of the planet to beat him, did he? He's show on the surface of the planet if you take the bucket, but if you defeat him with the Black Omen (or use the bucket after defeating the Black Omen) you are underground. No surface of the planet.
Second point: It says "brought the world to ruins." This would refer to the timeline represented by 2300 AD. If you had defeated Lavos, the world would not have been brought to ruins. That's the point of defeating Lavos.
It is not saying that in some timelines Lavos was defeated in 1999, but that in some timelines, Lavos CAUSED DESTRUCTION TO THE EARTH in 1999. We know this is clearly not the timeline represented by killing Lavos at any point in Chrono Trigger, because the point of killing Lavos is for the world to not be in ruins.
" Perhaps, at this point in time,
it is nearly impossible to
obtain any true information
about Lavos."
"No, Chronopolis cannot be wrong. Chronopolis studied all of the future, and the past. Heck, the world Chronopolis was born into did not have any records of Lavos or Zeal, period, and only found out about Lavos from the Dead Sea records most likely. "
~Zaperking (I'm sorry, I tried to quote but it kind of died, and I'm in a bit of a hurry.)
He claimed that Chronopolis knew all of time. Okay, well then how come they can't look to Lavos BEFORE Chrono and crew killed him? It wouldn't be hard, even if he was defeated in 15000 BC, he's been there since 65 Million BC. So he's been underground, you say? They could still research is as he falls in 65 mil BC. They could still check out what Chrono and crew said about him throughout history. IF they actually know ALL of history, then they should know.
"There are those who believe
that, 12 thousand years ago,
the legendary ancient magical
civilization known as Zeal
came into contact with Lavos."
Again a point that Chronopolis does not know all of history: if they knew it all, Zeal would not be a legend, because Zeal did exist, though of course at some point it did fall. That's like saying Chronopolis shouldn't know anything about anyone living in the past, because at some point they did die. In any timeline which Lavos was killed, Zeal still existed.
AND THE MOST MAJOR POINT OF ALL, WHICH NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO YET!
AND AGAIN! After defeating the Black Omen, you are TAKEN TO 1999!!! I warped out back to the end of time, and to warp back in, you take the bucket to 1999. Hence, even if you use the black Omen, Lavos is killed in 1999.
The only way to kill Lavos in 12000 BC (I typo'd with 15000 back there, sorry) is if you kill him during the Ocean Palace incident. And this is plot interrupting, cutting off a large portion of the game.
I'm still not sure if this would cause him to be killed in 12000 BC though, because it's possible you are warped to a different spot.
In fact, the ending to defeating him here is merely "The Dream Project", or developer rooms. No plot.
I don't think this is the ending represented in Chrono Cross, because it cuts out a large amount of game, especially the development of the characters with the sidequests.
I think we are misinterpreting what is said in Chrono Cross.
As I look over it again...
"On the time line that existed
before history was changed,
Lavos was assumed to have
slept deep below the planet's
surface..."
If, in what I saw before, you kill Lavos underground if you use the Black Omen, then you kill Lavos before he surfaces, and Chronopolis might not be aware that he sleeps under the ground.
" On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins."
Point: Lavos didn't necessarily apprear on the surface of the planet to beat him, did he? He's show on the surface of the planet if you take the bucket, but if you defeat him with the Black Omen (or use the bucket after defeating the Black Omen) you are underground. No surface of the planet.
Second point: It says "brought the world to ruins." This would refer to the timeline represented by 2300 AD. If you had defeated Lavos, the world would not have been brought to ruins. That's the point of defeating Lavos.
It is not saying that in some timelines Lavos was defeated in 1999, but that in some timelines, Lavos CAUSED DESTRUCTION TO THE EARTH in 1999. We know this is clearly not the timeline represented by killing Lavos at any point in Chrono Trigger, because the point of killing Lavos is for the world to not be in ruins.
" Perhaps, at this point in time,
it is nearly impossible to
obtain any true information
about Lavos."
"No, Chronopolis cannot be wrong. Chronopolis studied all of the future, and the past. Heck, the world Chronopolis was born into did not have any records of Lavos or Zeal, period, and only found out about Lavos from the Dead Sea records most likely. "
~Zaperking (I'm sorry, I tried to quote but it kind of died, and I'm in a bit of a hurry.)
He claimed that Chronopolis knew all of time. Okay, well then how come they can't look to Lavos BEFORE Chrono and crew killed him? It wouldn't be hard, even if he was defeated in 15000 BC, he's been there since 65 Million BC. So he's been underground, you say? They could still research is as he falls in 65 mil BC. They could still check out what Chrono and crew said about him throughout history. IF they actually know ALL of history, then they should know.
"There are those who believe
that, 12 thousand years ago,
the legendary ancient magical
civilization known as Zeal
came into contact with Lavos."
Again a point that Chronopolis does not know all of history: if they knew it all, Zeal would not be a legend, because Zeal did exist, though of course at some point it did fall. That's like saying Chronopolis shouldn't know anything about anyone living in the past, because at some point they did die. In any timeline which Lavos was killed, Zeal still existed.
AND THE MOST MAJOR POINT OF ALL, WHICH NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO YET!
AND AGAIN! After defeating the Black Omen, you are TAKEN TO 1999!!! I warped out back to the end of time, and to warp back in, you take the bucket to 1999. Hence, even if you use the black Omen, Lavos is killed in 1999.
The only way to kill Lavos in 12000 BC (I typo'd with 15000 back there, sorry) is if you kill him during the Ocean Palace incident. And this is plot interrupting, cutting off a large portion of the game.
I'm still not sure if this would cause him to be killed in 12000 BC though, because it's possible you are warped to a different spot.
In fact, the ending to defeating him here is merely "The Dream Project", or developer rooms. No plot.
I don't think this is the ending represented in Chrono Cross, because it cuts out a large amount of game, especially the development of the characters with the sidequests.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« on: September 03, 2006, 02:03:32 pm »
I.. don't remember seeing that.
Does it matter what time period you defeated the Black Omen in?
Does it matter what time period you defeated the Black Omen in?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« on: September 03, 2006, 01:58:44 pm »
According to the article on this site for endings, the ending received for destroying Lavos in 15000 BC is the developer's rooms at the End of Time.
Of course, that still assumes that Lavos was actually defeated in that time period. Whenever you fight Lavos, it appears that it is in "the pocket dimension" that is spoken about again on this site. I don't remember the exact name given to it. The only gate in the game seen to take you to Lavos is that of 1999, again enforcing that Lavos can only be killed in 1999.
It's the only scenario that allows the Sea of Eden to make sense, pretty much. In fact, it allows the Sea of Eden to make perfect sense, and it clarifies a lot of Chrono Cross.
Is it possible that the computers and Chronopolis were incorrect?
Hopefully someone will post on this again someday soon, heh.
Of course, that still assumes that Lavos was actually defeated in that time period. Whenever you fight Lavos, it appears that it is in "the pocket dimension" that is spoken about again on this site. I don't remember the exact name given to it. The only gate in the game seen to take you to Lavos is that of 1999, again enforcing that Lavos can only be killed in 1999.
It's the only scenario that allows the Sea of Eden to make sense, pretty much. In fact, it allows the Sea of Eden to make perfect sense, and it clarifies a lot of Chrono Cross.
Is it possible that the computers and Chronopolis were incorrect?
Hopefully someone will post on this again someday soon, heh.
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« on: September 02, 2006, 11:16:18 pm »Quote
...but then when you have that little dude warp you out of the Black Omen if you get tired, does it take you to 12000 BC, or the time period from where you entered originally...? I never warped out--
I have. It takes you to the entrance of the Black Omen in whatever period you came from.
Quote
"My theory is that Crono and team clear the Black Omen, and the explosion semi-replicates the Ocean Palace incident and warps them to Lavos in 1999 AD."
Kind of close to what I think.
I posted this on another board after I read the armageddon theory, because I believe it to be correct.
The only way Lavos can be defeated in 12000 BC is if you kill him at the time in which Chrono would die. As far as I am aware, this is not the ending to Chrono Trigger that is acknowledged in Cross. Actually, is it even an ending? Someone on my other post said it was, but I am not certain. I think it might be impossible.
The Black Omen always transports you to 1999. I know because if you take the warp next to the save point out, it takes you to the bucket at the end of time. And well, the bucket has been said to take you to 1999. Lavos dies in 1999.
I think Cross just words things badly. The "ideal" way to end Trigger is by using the Omen during the time of Zeal. I hate to use ideal... but the most natural ending. Does that make any sense? What the game leads you to, so to speak. The ending that Cross acknowledges. So, technically the crew would've began their trip to off Lavos during that time period, even though he dies later. Again, bad wording?
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ayla
« on: September 02, 2006, 09:35:42 pm »
Oh, and another thing about Ayla:
She represents humanity before it was corrupted by Lavos, as explained in Chrono Cross. The "pure" human, so to speak. It struck me as I was playing with her in my party once.
Ayla shows that humans naturally have good intentions, one could say.
She represents humanity before it was corrupted by Lavos, as explained in Chrono Cross. The "pure" human, so to speak. It struck me as I was playing with her in my party once.
Ayla shows that humans naturally have good intentions, one could say.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« on: September 02, 2006, 07:22:27 pm »
Oh, and even though he can be defeated then, how does Cross suggest that is when he was defeated?
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« on: September 02, 2006, 07:20:52 pm »
Oh, you mean when Chrono is killed?
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ayla
« on: September 02, 2006, 07:20:07 pm »
She's my favorite, actually, but I think I missed out on a little bit of character development because she was always in my party.
A lot of what she says is very intelligent/thoughtful, but just in broken words.
Is it possible that Gaia's Navel is from Ayla's time? I just read an article about the Dead Sea, and it talked about places being transported.. like the city of reptiles, for instance. It would kind of explain why the Navel is so hard to reach, because the article talked about how the Dead Sea had to not interfere with the timeline. Everyone knows the Dead Sea is there, but it still barely changes anything.
Aren't all of the monsters there also very prehistoric?
A lot of what she says is very intelligent/thoughtful, but just in broken words.
Is it possible that Gaia's Navel is from Ayla's time? I just read an article about the Dead Sea, and it talked about places being transported.. like the city of reptiles, for instance. It would kind of explain why the Navel is so hard to reach, because the article talked about how the Dead Sea had to not interfere with the timeline. Everyone knows the Dead Sea is there, but it still barely changes anything.
Aren't all of the monsters there also very prehistoric?
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Armageddon-Branch Theory
« on: September 02, 2006, 07:06:01 pm »
The article "Salt for the Dead Sea" (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html) says that this theory was rejected because it was suggested Lavos was defeated in 15000 BC. I don't see how Lavos could possibly be defeated at that time.
If I'm not mistaken, there are 3 ways to reach Lavos: the Black Omen, the bucket, and the Epoch. All of these, however, take you to 1999. Epoch clearly takes you to 1999 because that is the date you choose. The bucket clearly takes you to 1999 because the Guru tells you so, and the scenes show it.
The Black Omen is not stated to take you to 1999, but it clearly does because if you use the portal next to the save point, you are taken to the bucket. No matter what time you access the Black Omen portal, you are still taken to 1999.
I'm not saying this is fact, this is just what I've observed. If there is evidence to the contrary, and I assume there is, for the theory to be disproven, I am curious what it is.
If I'm not mistaken, there are 3 ways to reach Lavos: the Black Omen, the bucket, and the Epoch. All of these, however, take you to 1999. Epoch clearly takes you to 1999 because that is the date you choose. The bucket clearly takes you to 1999 because the Guru tells you so, and the scenes show it.
The Black Omen is not stated to take you to 1999, but it clearly does because if you use the portal next to the save point, you are taken to the bucket. No matter what time you access the Black Omen portal, you are still taken to 1999.
I'm not saying this is fact, this is just what I've observed. If there is evidence to the contrary, and I assume there is, for the theory to be disproven, I am curious what it is.
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