Messages

1

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Is Magus truly a Prophet?

« on: March 01, 2005, 08:44:25 pm »

He probably figured that the party was sent to the same location in time as he was.

2

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 22, 2005, 07:56:11 pm »

Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.

And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.

Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos.  I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.

I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.

yea - way to go razor's edge....

Lavos seeks the perfect evolution - so he must manipulate his subjects on earth for the better over time. If he just "let them go", they might destroy him or his offspring - he must take that into consideration, so he has to destroy the world, otherwise he is putting himself at risk. (and yes I know he put himself at risk by emerging - thus allowing Crono and co. to see his destruction - but he replicates on the surface because his children apparently cannot launch themselves to other planets from underground - so he had to emerge).  
Crono and co. discover this, the do not want themselves and the world to be destroyed, so they do the same thing as Lavos - they seek a way to kill their enemy before their enemy kills them. Lavos will not have his offspring hindered, and Crono will not have the world destroyed.  In the end its not really about good or evil, both are just doing what they think is best for themselves and their own kind.  Therefore Lavos is not evil, unless you consider Crono evil.

3

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Timeline & Dimensional Clarification

« on: February 21, 2005, 11:35:45 pm »

Yea, you might want to label "Darkness Beyond Time" in that space right above the Key since not much is going on there.

4

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 21, 2005, 05:02:10 pm »

Well, razor's edge, I guess you've never scratched your skin.

Zeal became too close to Lavos, and by that point, he no longer had any need for them to exist - he could always make more. Its just like how you scratch your skin when you have an itch - you kill many organisms, but you will get more eventually, so you dont even think of it, and if you do think of it, you dont care. Lavos's body IS the planet now, if anything replaceable on it bothers him, he will eliminate it if he so chooses.  Again you only say he is evil because you see things from the human point of view.

5

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 21, 2005, 02:45:43 pm »

arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune

Radius's view is skewed.

Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient.  Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival.  Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.

6

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 20, 2005, 08:58:02 pm »

Lavos/Lavos Energy/TD/ are not evil. The sword is not evil. Look at it from a neutral point of view (we are used to the view via Serge, if we had a view via the TD it would all be opposite). We have a problem here:

Is the sword comprised in some way of Masa and Mune? Or are they simply its masters?

If they are not directly of the swords composition, you could argue that they only control the Masamune - so while they are asleep they are not in control of it as they claim in the game. The Masamune is just a sword, it is, however, infused with Lavos energy. Therefore the Lavos-energy-infused Masamune is being its natural self, without anyone inhibiting it.

If they are directly related to the swords composition, they must be affected by the Lavos energy somehow. To say that they are free from it makes sense if you argue that Lavos energy only makes the sword powerful and does nothing in terms of influence.  I disagree with this though. Queen Zeal saw the opportunity for absolute power, Radius saw the opportunity to best his ally and become number one. Frog saw the opportunity to slay Magus and win back the honor of his friend.

Lavos energy represents undying ambition and is neutral. However certain plot points make us think that the sword somehow becomes good or evil. Masa and Mune seem to be able to slightly alter the Ambition from a selfish form to a selfless form (hence Frog's ambition). This is based on their own judgments (or Melchiors judgments) on what is good or evil. I know many of us consider being selfish to be bad, but remember that Lavos energy, whether or not it represents undying ambition, is just energy - it cannot think. Without a medium to pass through (Masa and Mune) it will only give its user the will to reach their absolute potential. And yes, Doreen probably meant "catching them on the job"

The Lavos-energy-infused-Masamune never became evil, it became natural again.

7

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 20, 2005, 03:27:01 pm »

I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.

8

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 20, 2005, 02:15:24 pm »

And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?

I always thought that the Masamune in CC was the Masamune created in 2 seconds by the Mammon Machine in the Ocean Palace, but I just read somewhere else that because of Time Bastard, Frog's Masamune and the evil Masamune must be the same one.  I'm not really sure how to answer this question, but let me give a few differences between the Masamune in CT and the Masamune in CC.
1) In CT, the Masamune is always in the same time period as Frog
2) In CC, Frog isnt even alive anymore.
3) In CT, Masa and Mune are awake - In CC, they are asleep.
4) So, The Masamune as we see it in CC lives in a world where Frog no longer exists and its masters sleep. The Masamune as we see it in CT lives in a world where Frog is always present and its masters awake.
5) The Masamune in CT lives in a world directly opposite of the Masamune in CC (in terms of its own experiences).
6) The Masamune found in CT is a typical broadsword with a nice blue glow.
7) The Masamune found in CC is not a typical sword at all - it doesnt even look like a broadsword anymore, and it is red in color.

Lets put this together: CT: Frog, awake, typical, blue.
CC: No Frog, asleep, not typical, red.

8 ) The Masamune as it is in CT is the direct opposite of the Masamune as it is found in CC in terms of appearence and experiences (as partially stated above).
ready?
9) The Masamune in CT represents the experiences/feelings of Glenn, who by the hands of Magus became like him - one with two identities.
10) If the Masamune in CT is the direct opposite of the one in CC in all ways except for the fact that it exists, then all attributes above pertaining to the appearence, experience, and 'reason' of the Masamune as it is in CT should be 'inverted' for the Masamune in CC.
11) Therefore, the Masamune in CC does NOT represent the experiences/feelings of Frog.

yay

9

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 19, 2005, 12:58:44 pm »

Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!

A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.

Yes, but Masa and Mune couldn't transform the sword without the transformation within Frog. Explanatory metaphor time--Masa and Mune needed Frog to unlock the door so they could open it.

Ok, After reading over everything, I've come to accept your theory as the most likely explanation. So, instead of debating with you about it, I've decided to add to it.
In my opinion there is a special relationship between the Masamune and Frog - its almost as if the Masamune's condition represents Frog's feelings inside.
The Masamune is of normal power - Cyrus and Glenn fight Magus
The Masamune breaks, loses all power - Cyrus is killed, Glenn's dreams shattered, Glenn faces identity loss as he hides who he is from even his closest friends (Leene for example)
The Masamune is restored - Frog gains the courage to fight Magus again.
The Masamune powers up - Frog remembers who he is, who Cyrus is, and what he is fighting for.
The Masamune finds its true identity - Frog finds peace with Cyrus, there is no longer an identity split, there is no Frog - only Glenn

10

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 17, 2005, 11:53:42 pm »

Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!

A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.

11

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Found! Power Spots are confirmed!

« on: February 17, 2005, 09:01:24 pm »

Chronopolis and the Dragonians originated the system, and El Nido is bound to the success of the heroes of time. They wouldn't have existed in Chrono Trigger.

Yes, but if the elements were formed naturally, Crono's success wouldnt matter - the elements would be found in and around power spots.  
Where are the power spots on the Zenan Continent? Not sure, but there has to be at least one.  The few places I can think of are the Heckran Cave, Fiona's Forest, Volcanic area around Tyrano Fort, Sun Keep.

The gigantic elements of each color found towards the top of Terra Tower are probably akin to a large-scale model of the everyday elements.
Also the Chrono Cross is definately fully recognizeable when you get it.

12

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 17, 2005, 05:52:11 pm »

If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.

Thats not a very stable conclusion. "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!"

nah. Besides you seem to be underestimating Cyrus's will to slay Magus. The Masamune is a magical sword with magical properties, so it doesnt really matter who uses it, if they know what they are doing, they will gain great power.

New thought: Remeber the Amulet Schala gave to Janus? Assume it is made of Dreamstone. Now assume (from Schala's statement "it will protect you") that it is full of Lavos energy. Now assume that over time Magus absorbed this energy from the Amulet into his own body. Now part of his power is from Lavos. Allow me to go further:
1) The Masamune absorbs some of the Lavos Energy within him, thus weakening him.
2) At the Ocean Palace, Magus attacks Lavos, yet...nothing happens at all, he uses his best attack (where a red object, similar looking to the ruby knife is involved) and nothing happens.
3) Perhaps Lavos energy is involved in the attack, meaning it cant hurt Lavos.
4) Lavos absorbs all the "tainted" (Lavos energy affected) powers from Magus, leaving him with a few simple innate skills.
5) Lavos tainted skills never return because they are not innate. The only example from Magus that I can think of is Geyser.

This is, of course, assuming that the Amulet is made of Dreamstone, infused with Lavos energy, and involved at all.

13

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Questions I'm still a bit fuzzy on

« on: February 17, 2005, 05:26:31 pm »

Wait, when you say A' is sent to the DBT, you mean when A emerges from the gate in 1000 AD right? So A replaces A'. To me it sounded like A' never exists, even in the new timeline - so i am just checking.

14

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Found! Power Spots are confirmed!

« on: February 17, 2005, 05:01:35 pm »

We also don't see them being made; they're just there, left over from when the Dragonians made/found/produced them.

But we know that they are made using the natural energy found in power spots. If they were formed naturally, wouldnt we run across some on the Zenan continent? Obviously not in the same form (game designs) but what about an equivalent? Can you think of any? I can think of none at the present moment. Again, its possible that nothing like it may exist because of the difference between the games, but its worth an observation.

15

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 15, 2005, 11:27:18 pm »

Ok.. so the Masamune absorbs from Magus because of Frogs will. You have enough proof, assuming you arent looking at that conversation from the wrong angle. I guess that means that Frog has emotional tension with the Mammon Machine...

so yea, look at the conversation again