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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: How Does Serge Cause the Destruction of the Future?
« on: December 07, 2007, 07:19:23 am »I think this has an explanation... When Serge touched the Flame, he became its arbiter... Some years later, Wazuki kills Serge, then FATE regained control of the Records of Fate and of the minds of the El Nidians, preventing more aggression to the history and preserving the good future. What i mean is, the records of fate stayed deactivated for less time than it was needed to the El Nindians to influenece history deeply... In Home, FATE never regain control of itself, since Serge survives, then it never regained control of the minds of the El Nidians... hundreds of years then would have passed without El Nidians being manipulated, what would cause a huge distortion of the happennings in the world and somehow preventing Crono from fulfilling its purposes...
When I first read your post, it seemed a good theory to me. But then I started thinking...
In Chrono Cross, FATE does not only want to kill Serge. It needs to gain Serge's body to be able to access the Frozen Flame. Then it seems that only killing Serge does not solve FATE's problem, right? If this is true, then why did FATE try to kill Serge in the first place? If this is false and killing Serge solves FATE's problem, why doesn't it just try to kill him in Chrono Cross instead of doing all the body changing? I was unable to find an answer.
Another question is: what really prevents FATE from accessing the Records of Fate in Home? I first thought that it was because it could not access the Frozen Flame as a result of Serge being the Arbiter. But now I am thinking that this does not make sense: Another FATE does not have access to the Frozen Flame, still it's able to control Another's Records of Fate, but not Home's. What is the difference? The merely presence of Serge in Home would prevent access to the Records? I don't think so, if this was true then FATE would loose access to Another's Records when Serge arrived there.
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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos Question
« on: December 07, 2007, 07:09:39 am »
But when Magus awakens Lavos in 600 A.D. in the original timeline, it doesn't destroy anything. Probably it finds no need to destroy anyone besides Magus - that started to battle with Lavos by his own will - because no one in 600 A.D. is really a threat to it.
It really seems that Lavos is able to find out when the humans are becoming a real threat to it and is capable of destroying them in that case.
It really seems that Lavos is able to find out when the humans are becoming a real threat to it and is capable of destroying them in that case.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: How Does Serge Cause the Destruction of the Future?
« on: December 06, 2007, 07:53:40 am »
I agree with you. I like this simple theory much more than the Armageddon-Branch. In Chrono Cross we can see that 10 years caused a lot of small changes in the course of things in the two dimensions mainly because of the lack of the influence of Records of Fate. Who can say what other changes would happen in 900 years or more? Apparently, some of these changes were capable of causing the ruinned future.
I also agree that the Home Dimension must have its own past. If someone from the future of Home Dimension travels to the past, he must arrive on Home Dimension's own past. If it did not exist, this person would arrive in Another's past despite having departed from Home's future? I don't see how this would make any sense, so I really think that each dimension must have its own past, although identical ones.
Another point: some people may say that the ruinned future has a problem with the free will of Serge, since he can see that he will do something that will destroy the future. I don't think this is right. Looking at things with this theory in mind, we can conclude that propably it wasn't Serge himself that made any actions that would cause the ruin. The creation of a dimension where FATE was not able to control the Records of Fate was the real problem. Hence, anyone in Home Dimension was able to take some course of actions that would cause the destruction, not necessarily Serge himself. When Serge goes to the dead sea, he is actually travelling to the future, so he is seeing the results of the actions that other people along the history of the dimension had already done, not actions that they are going to do.
I also agree that the Home Dimension must have its own past. If someone from the future of Home Dimension travels to the past, he must arrive on Home Dimension's own past. If it did not exist, this person would arrive in Another's past despite having departed from Home's future? I don't see how this would make any sense, so I really think that each dimension must have its own past, although identical ones.
Another point: some people may say that the ruinned future has a problem with the free will of Serge, since he can see that he will do something that will destroy the future. I don't think this is right. Looking at things with this theory in mind, we can conclude that propably it wasn't Serge himself that made any actions that would cause the ruin. The creation of a dimension where FATE was not able to control the Records of Fate was the real problem. Hence, anyone in Home Dimension was able to take some course of actions that would cause the destruction, not necessarily Serge himself. When Serge goes to the dead sea, he is actually travelling to the future, so he is seeing the results of the actions that other people along the history of the dimension had already done, not actions that they are going to do.
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History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« on: December 03, 2007, 07:25:36 am »The confusion about Porre was never really about whether or not they could beat Crono, Lucca or Marle, it was more the fact that it was such a drastic change between Cross and Trigger.
I believe the most accepted reason is that Porre somehow intergrated Elements into their army during the colonisation of El Nido since 920 AD.
Yes, you're right! But I still think there is some trouble there. If the Elements were the reason for Porre's success, it means this happened only in the timeline modified after Chronopolis arrival. This implies that its effort to avoid any changes in time that would put its existence in risk would have failed completely.
As for Belthesar... why would he bother to save either Chrono, Marle or Lucca. It's likely he contacted Lucca at some point in 1005 or earlier, but there's no reason why he would bother, especially since the ideal timeline would effectively save them anyway. Plus how could Belthasar save them anyway? He's weaker than them for sure, and I doubt either Chrono, Marle or Lucca would want to flee from Guardia.
You got some nice logical reasons though, but unlikely compared to more 'solid' explainations.
Ok, I understand that he probably had no great reason to save them. But it seems to me they have developed some kind of friendship after all the events in CT, so that could be one reason. As for how could he save them, I believe his strength is his intelligence. After doing all the planning of Project Kid, making a "small project" to save them would be easy. Since the reason of their fall was something outside the normal flow of time, maybe travelling a few years in the past (say, 1002 A.D.) and advicing them about what would happen could be enough.
Anyway, I agree that this "Belthasar saving them" theory if really weak. But I think my "Lucca saving them" theory is more strong. If Lucca just saw her friends die in 1005 A.D., but she survived, she would do anything she could to save them. I didn't see anything about this point anywhere. What was Lucca doing between 1005 and 1015 A.D.? And after the events in Cross, I believe time is changed so she does not die in 1015 A.D., so what is she doing after that?
Thanks for your reply!
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: More Salt for the Dead Sea
« on: November 30, 2007, 09:01:08 am »
After Serge's battle with Miguel, Another's FATE destroyed Home's Frozen Flame, although it did not have access to its own Frozen Flame at that time.
Hence, it seems to me that Another's FATE had the power to destroy Home's Dead Sea even without access to the Frozen Flame.
Hence, it seems to me that Another's FATE had the power to destroy Home's Dead Sea even without access to the Frozen Flame.
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History, Locations, and Artifacts / Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« on: November 23, 2007, 03:19:38 pm »
Hi everyone!
Just this year I started playing Chrono Cross, then I've found this site, which I thought is very well made and useful! Thank you to the ones that helped making it this way!
Now, I've read many theories about the rise of Porre / fall of Guardia, but a few ideas occurred to me, that I've not seen posted anywhere else, so I will bring them to discussion.
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1- My first thought is about the power of the Porre Army. I was thinking that Serge actually fights some of the Porre soldiers in CC, so this can give us a look at the average power of the Porre soldiers. The ones that Serge had to fight were not very powerful and very easy to kill. In fact, some of them had to ask for (Serge as) Lynx's help because they were having trouble to capture Orlha (and she was alone)! So, I have to conclude that the average Porre soldier is not that powerful in 1020, hence they should be even weaker, or at least equal, in 1005, right? The only powerful soldiers from Porre that Serge has found were Norris, Grobyc and Guillot, but I understand that they were exceptions, so there wasn't a lot of them. Also, probably they didn't have anything like Grobyc and Guillot in 1005 yet, perhaps some initial experiments.
Thinking this way, I don't think that probably Porre army would be able to beat Crono, Marle and Lucca because of their great power. This does not discard the possibility that they were killed by any others means or even off-battle, but I don't see how Porre army could have won a fight with them.
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2- Now the second point is about what happened between 1005 and 1020.
2.1- If Crono and Marle were alive, I believe that the first thing they would do (together with Luca) would be to make a plan to enter through Porre's defenses right to its source of power and destroy it, as they had done previously through their journey. But obviously, this did not happen.
If they are alive and did not take this course of actions, I can only think that they should have a reason to consider better not risking it. For example, they could be ruling what was left of Guardia as king and queen and felt that abandoning their people to try a risky move would be to dangerous to them: if they would for any reason fail, or if Porre would strike another massive attack before they were back, the citizens of Guardia would be left alone and without defenses.
Another theory is that they could have had babies before 1005, and thought that they could not risk their lives leaving their children alone, so they decided to stay behind, taking care of them at least until the time they reach their maturity.
Under this theory, it is possible that after some time they finish building a plan, or wait until whatever was stopping them to end (their children grow, for example), and in the soon future they attack Porre and raise Guardia to the place it was before.
2.2- If Crono and Marle actually die in 1005, we have to consider that Lucca stayed alive until 1015. I cannot imagine how would Lucca live 10 years knowing that their friends were death and do nothing about it! Specially because she had already used their time travelling abilities to save Crono once. And if the cause of Marle and Crono's death was really something outside the normal flow of time, Lucca would surely have discovered this and would try to fix everything in the first place, maybe asking for help from their other friends through time.
I think that maybe she was trying to do something to fix things, but she did not have the Epoch for some reason and could not use any gate, and that is why she was trying to build a time egg. If she succeeded, she would soon use the time egg to fix things and save Crono and Marle, but them Lynx came and killed her before she was able to do anything but an incomplete time egg.
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3- But if Crono and Marle are dead as Chrono Cross is going on, what happens after it is finished? We know something about what happens in the Chrono Cross timelines, but it is possible that the activation of the Chrono Cross by Serge has created a new timeline. If we consider the time rewind theory to the unification of the dimensions (which, personally, I think it is what would really happen), them time would flow normally from 1006 on, without any dimension splitting. If this really happens, and assuming that Crono and Marle did really die in 1005, them:
3.1- As there is no Lynx in the unified timeline, no one attacks Lucca in 1015, so she is alive and continues her research on time eggs. Eventually, she is able to build a complete time egg, so she uses it to come back to 1005 or sometime earlier, fixes whatever happened that was "outside normal flow of time", and saves Crono and Marle. Possibly with the help of Schala/Kid (since we do not really know what happened to them) or someone else (she could ask for Ayla/Frog/Robo's help also). Wouldn't this be possible? Wouldn't this possibly be what Lucca would do? I doubt she would just continue her life knowing that their friends are death and just accept it.
3.2- Another possibility: Belthasar knows everything that happened through the time until 2400AD, right? If really there was something outside the normal flow of time that helped the destruction of Guardia, Belthasar would have the possibility to fix it. Maybe he didn't do anything in the first place, because his first priority was Project Kid and destroying the Time Devourer, and he did need the support of the future Central Regime built by the evolution of the Porre Kingdom, to build Chronopolis. But after the Time Devourer is destroyed, Belthasar could have used his Neo Epoch to start his next project: saving Crono, Marle and Guardia from the events in time that have happened and caused their falling, possibly counting with the help of Lucca to accomplish this (or manipulating her and others to make his new project work, as appears to be his way to fix things).
----------
Well, what do you think? Does any of these ideas seem really possible?
Just this year I started playing Chrono Cross, then I've found this site, which I thought is very well made and useful! Thank you to the ones that helped making it this way!
Now, I've read many theories about the rise of Porre / fall of Guardia, but a few ideas occurred to me, that I've not seen posted anywhere else, so I will bring them to discussion.
----------
1- My first thought is about the power of the Porre Army. I was thinking that Serge actually fights some of the Porre soldiers in CC, so this can give us a look at the average power of the Porre soldiers. The ones that Serge had to fight were not very powerful and very easy to kill. In fact, some of them had to ask for (Serge as) Lynx's help because they were having trouble to capture Orlha (and she was alone)! So, I have to conclude that the average Porre soldier is not that powerful in 1020, hence they should be even weaker, or at least equal, in 1005, right? The only powerful soldiers from Porre that Serge has found were Norris, Grobyc and Guillot, but I understand that they were exceptions, so there wasn't a lot of them. Also, probably they didn't have anything like Grobyc and Guillot in 1005 yet, perhaps some initial experiments.
Thinking this way, I don't think that probably Porre army would be able to beat Crono, Marle and Lucca because of their great power. This does not discard the possibility that they were killed by any others means or even off-battle, but I don't see how Porre army could have won a fight with them.
----------
2- Now the second point is about what happened between 1005 and 1020.
2.1- If Crono and Marle were alive, I believe that the first thing they would do (together with Luca) would be to make a plan to enter through Porre's defenses right to its source of power and destroy it, as they had done previously through their journey. But obviously, this did not happen.
If they are alive and did not take this course of actions, I can only think that they should have a reason to consider better not risking it. For example, they could be ruling what was left of Guardia as king and queen and felt that abandoning their people to try a risky move would be to dangerous to them: if they would for any reason fail, or if Porre would strike another massive attack before they were back, the citizens of Guardia would be left alone and without defenses.
Another theory is that they could have had babies before 1005, and thought that they could not risk their lives leaving their children alone, so they decided to stay behind, taking care of them at least until the time they reach their maturity.
Under this theory, it is possible that after some time they finish building a plan, or wait until whatever was stopping them to end (their children grow, for example), and in the soon future they attack Porre and raise Guardia to the place it was before.
2.2- If Crono and Marle actually die in 1005, we have to consider that Lucca stayed alive until 1015. I cannot imagine how would Lucca live 10 years knowing that their friends were death and do nothing about it! Specially because she had already used their time travelling abilities to save Crono once. And if the cause of Marle and Crono's death was really something outside the normal flow of time, Lucca would surely have discovered this and would try to fix everything in the first place, maybe asking for help from their other friends through time.
I think that maybe she was trying to do something to fix things, but she did not have the Epoch for some reason and could not use any gate, and that is why she was trying to build a time egg. If she succeeded, she would soon use the time egg to fix things and save Crono and Marle, but them Lynx came and killed her before she was able to do anything but an incomplete time egg.
----------
3- But if Crono and Marle are dead as Chrono Cross is going on, what happens after it is finished? We know something about what happens in the Chrono Cross timelines, but it is possible that the activation of the Chrono Cross by Serge has created a new timeline. If we consider the time rewind theory to the unification of the dimensions (which, personally, I think it is what would really happen), them time would flow normally from 1006 on, without any dimension splitting. If this really happens, and assuming that Crono and Marle did really die in 1005, them:
3.1- As there is no Lynx in the unified timeline, no one attacks Lucca in 1015, so she is alive and continues her research on time eggs. Eventually, she is able to build a complete time egg, so she uses it to come back to 1005 or sometime earlier, fixes whatever happened that was "outside normal flow of time", and saves Crono and Marle. Possibly with the help of Schala/Kid (since we do not really know what happened to them) or someone else (she could ask for Ayla/Frog/Robo's help also). Wouldn't this be possible? Wouldn't this possibly be what Lucca would do? I doubt she would just continue her life knowing that their friends are death and just accept it.
3.2- Another possibility: Belthasar knows everything that happened through the time until 2400AD, right? If really there was something outside the normal flow of time that helped the destruction of Guardia, Belthasar would have the possibility to fix it. Maybe he didn't do anything in the first place, because his first priority was Project Kid and destroying the Time Devourer, and he did need the support of the future Central Regime built by the evolution of the Porre Kingdom, to build Chronopolis. But after the Time Devourer is destroyed, Belthasar could have used his Neo Epoch to start his next project: saving Crono, Marle and Guardia from the events in time that have happened and caused their falling, possibly counting with the help of Lucca to accomplish this (or manipulating her and others to make his new project work, as appears to be his way to fix things).
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Well, what do you think? Does any of these ideas seem really possible?
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