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1
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 04, 2010, 10:58:40 pm »Quote
The implication is that FATE had been working on Wazuki from the time that he took Serge to Chronopolis, which was before the dimensional fracture
Wait, am I getting the events backwards? I was thinking the dimensional fracture was when Serge drowned, and that that happened before the panther incident. I must have gotten that backwards, though.
2
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Elaine and the Statutory Rapist
« on: February 04, 2010, 10:56:19 pm »
I thought Fritz was her brother.
3
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Explain Serge's Silence.
« on: February 03, 2010, 10:45:52 pm »
Alternate interpretation:
Serge, being controlled by FATE, doesn't have a voice of his own and thus can't "talk."
Serge, being controlled by FATE, doesn't have a voice of his own and thus can't "talk."
4
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 03, 2010, 10:34:11 pm »Quote
Crono's is obvious, the Time Egg incident.
Yes, and eggs in general are associated with resurrection. What's interesting is that I SEEM to recall the notion of a time EGG being something Woolsey came up with. Can anyone confirm this?
(I do feel the Norstein-Bekkler stuff sort of cheapened the effect, though. The Time Egg could've reasonably just pulled him back from some ambiguous void, like what happened with Marle, without the need for the whole body switch/carnival doll thing).
Anyway, I think you could also see Frog in a similar light.
What about Lucca and Ayla, though? Lucca is obviously literally killed during CC, but she has her own weird confrontation with death during the campfire scene. Except not, because she doesn't really have a death/rebirth experience. It's just witnessing mortality in some manner.
I don't think Ayla ever really is forced to confront mortality, though? Then again, her Personal Sidequest was apparently cut, and I'm not willing to trust that whatever CT DS added back in was particularly accurate to what it was originally.
(Also the other thing I found weird about Lynx being Serge's father is that Lynx existed in the dimension where Serge died when he was like, three. Which means that either Lynx was inserted into both timelines, which doesn't really sit well with me for a number of reasons. It's subtle but there's some indications that Home Lynx, while still not really being a good guy, isn't nearly as evil as Another Lynx is. Also, if they're both pawns of FATE, I don't see why Home Lynx wouldn't have been lost along with the dragoons in the dead sea or whatever. I also get the impression that Lynx existed before that entire incident anyway, partially because Another Lynx *sounds* like he has the same consciousness as the panther demon that attacked Serge
Anyway, I take it more that FATE just hijacked Serge's dad's body in a moment of weakness and was used as some sort of biological basis for Lynx. The notion that Lynx is Serge's dad isn't really accurate because there's very clearly nothing left of Serge's dad's personality/mind/soul/whatever in Lynx).
5
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 03, 2010, 06:05:28 pm »Yeah, I always think mind switching(or transfer) can't keep one living forever -- if you believe that mind are not individual entity like the term of soul. So when Lynx switched bodies (or mind) with Serge, you can say Serge was already dead. The new Serge in Lynx's body keeps all his memory, but he is definitely a new person. Though to a third person, he is still Serge since he knows everthing that Serge knows. The original Serge might suffer a mind-blanking period during the the switching process, and his feeling never continued(died).
That is kinda like Belthasar's Nu, who received Belthasar's memory.
That's actually an interesting way of looking at that, and I'm glad you brought the Nu connection up because I'd forgotten about that.
I'd say Serge is different, because, while in the case with the Nu, it's made more apparent that Nu INHERITS Belthasar's memory, but isn't exactly Belthasar.
Serge and Lynx, on the other hand, seem to maintain their consciousness.
Or to use the term I was using earlier, Serge and Lynx maintain, initially, their egos across the body switch. Belthasar does not.
(And just to be clear, I'm using ego in the ego loss/spirituality sense, and not so much in the Freudian sense).
On the other hand, Harle is challenging Lynx about his belief that he is Serge and, more broadly, the notion of Serge as an individual personality/ego.
Looking at this from an ego death perspective, here's another way I might see this.
Belthasar, being a wiseman and thus probably enlightened, might not even have an ego to pass on to the Nu. If the ego, here, is referring to a specific, limited sense of self, Belthasar might have a more universal perspective of consciousness. No sense of "self", per se, but maybe more one of universal one-ness.
Or something.
There's also the whole Schala/Kid thing and the Lynx-is-Serge's-dad thing which I'm sort of hazy on.
6
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 02, 2010, 08:30:00 pm »
"The thematic purpose was FATE (as Lynx) needed to have a Serge puppet to access the frozen flame - as Serge was the arbiter and the only person who had access to it."
No, that's the plot reason. I'm trying to look more at broader thematic reasons here. They're not the same thing, exactly.
Here's another idea. The body switch could very represent physical death and rebirth.
Serge "dies" at various points in the story. Most obviously, when he drowns would be the first time. He also, subsequently, experiences a rebirth after every death. In this particular case, it's not so much a rebirth, per se, but the dimensions forking.
The second death is harder to pinpoint, because you could either say his contact with the Frozen Flame in the Sea of Eden is a singular death and rebirth event, or that the attack from the panther demon is the death, and that the contact is the rebirth.
I think you could make a case for the first point Serge switches dimensions being a death event (Crossing over to the other side, being in a world where he no longer exists, etc). but the next big one, in any case, would be when he switches bodies with Serge.
I think there could be a them here about taking hold of destiny by confronting death. That could bear some exploring.
No, that's the plot reason. I'm trying to look more at broader thematic reasons here. They're not the same thing, exactly.
Here's another idea. The body switch could very represent physical death and rebirth.
Serge "dies" at various points in the story. Most obviously, when he drowns would be the first time. He also, subsequently, experiences a rebirth after every death. In this particular case, it's not so much a rebirth, per se, but the dimensions forking.
The second death is harder to pinpoint, because you could either say his contact with the Frozen Flame in the Sea of Eden is a singular death and rebirth event, or that the attack from the panther demon is the death, and that the contact is the rebirth.
I think you could make a case for the first point Serge switches dimensions being a death event (Crossing over to the other side, being in a world where he no longer exists, etc). but the next big one, in any case, would be when he switches bodies with Serge.
I think there could be a them here about taking hold of destiny by confronting death. That could bear some exploring.
7
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 02, 2010, 12:38:03 am »
This is something I kind of wondered about for awhile. When Serge and Lynx switch bodies in Fort Dragonia, there is, from a strictly plot-based standpoint, this notion of equivalence. Serge and Lynx had to switch bodies because Search had drowned in one world and Lynx had died in that Dead Sea incident in the other.
But what thematic purpose did it have? It wasn't just a single flash-in-the-pale event. You play as Lynx for something like a third of the game.
I did some research on the concept of ego death late last year, and I was recently thinking that ego death could provide and interesting framework for the body switch incident, and, possibly, the nature of Serge's character as a whole.
Ego death doesn't mean actual, physical death, but rather the loss of ones sense of self -- in a sense. I don't claim to understand it fully, and there are a lot of different viewpoints about it, but one general way of looking at it is, through meditation or psychoactive drugs or some sort of trauma, losing one's sense of self, sense of separateness from ones environment, and feelings of control over ones own actions and... let's say "fate," just for fun.
What do we specifically know from the game's script? After Serge becomes Lynx, he ends up in the Cleft of Dimension, and during his escape from there, Harle has a few conversations about who he's become.
Here, you're presented with a few dialogue options. In one set, Serge initially maintains that he's Serge, and not Lynx. Harle, however, insists that nobody would believe he's Serge, and that Serge doesn't even exist in the particular world he's in. Thus, he must not be Serge.
And then she questions him on what Serge even was. This is the salient part: "Maybe for you it is evident, but... I wonder if you ever really were Serge...? Furthermore... what waz zis Serge? A figure, a shape? A spirit? A soul? Where waz zis Serge?"
I interpret this as a discussion on the illusory nature of Serge's ego. One of the dialogue options that follows in this exchange allows Serge to accept that he is Lynx. This, to me, amounts to Serge experiencing ego death.
Of course, this is really just half of it. Serge, obviously, gets his body back, and the flipside of ego death is the reformation of one's sense of self after experiencing it. There's also a couple of other themes about death and rebirth that come up a lot in the game.
One thing I do want to note is that Kato seems to have a fondness for gnostic mythology, dreamtime mythology, and Zurvanism (in some nominal sense at least).
There does seem to be a degree of overlap between the ego death, psychonaut group and the gnostic group, particularly through the idea of using ego death a as a means of achieving gnosis, although I'm not finding much concrete information about that.
But what thematic purpose did it have? It wasn't just a single flash-in-the-pale event. You play as Lynx for something like a third of the game.
I did some research on the concept of ego death late last year, and I was recently thinking that ego death could provide and interesting framework for the body switch incident, and, possibly, the nature of Serge's character as a whole.
Ego death doesn't mean actual, physical death, but rather the loss of ones sense of self -- in a sense. I don't claim to understand it fully, and there are a lot of different viewpoints about it, but one general way of looking at it is, through meditation or psychoactive drugs or some sort of trauma, losing one's sense of self, sense of separateness from ones environment, and feelings of control over ones own actions and... let's say "fate," just for fun.
What do we specifically know from the game's script? After Serge becomes Lynx, he ends up in the Cleft of Dimension, and during his escape from there, Harle has a few conversations about who he's become.
Here, you're presented with a few dialogue options. In one set, Serge initially maintains that he's Serge, and not Lynx. Harle, however, insists that nobody would believe he's Serge, and that Serge doesn't even exist in the particular world he's in. Thus, he must not be Serge.
And then she questions him on what Serge even was. This is the salient part: "Maybe for you it is evident, but... I wonder if you ever really were Serge...? Furthermore... what waz zis Serge? A figure, a shape? A spirit? A soul? Where waz zis Serge?"
I interpret this as a discussion on the illusory nature of Serge's ego. One of the dialogue options that follows in this exchange allows Serge to accept that he is Lynx. This, to me, amounts to Serge experiencing ego death.
Of course, this is really just half of it. Serge, obviously, gets his body back, and the flipside of ego death is the reformation of one's sense of self after experiencing it. There's also a couple of other themes about death and rebirth that come up a lot in the game.
One thing I do want to note is that Kato seems to have a fondness for gnostic mythology, dreamtime mythology, and Zurvanism (in some nominal sense at least).
There does seem to be a degree of overlap between the ego death, psychonaut group and the gnostic group, particularly through the idea of using ego death a as a means of achieving gnosis, although I'm not finding much concrete information about that.
8
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Another Look at CC's 2nd Moon
« on: July 30, 2009, 10:13:44 pm »
Er, right. I meant she's not the moon. It just sounds like her existance NECESSITATED the extra moon somehow.
9
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Another Look at CC's 2nd Moon
« on: July 29, 2009, 10:32:40 pm »
IIRC, the second moon is Harle, because Harle is... the... moon Dragon, which necessitates the existence of the second moon. There's something in the script about it. So yeah, Dragonians made it or something.
10
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Drifters?
« on: July 28, 2009, 10:32:13 pm »
Or the drifters are just... still the CT party. The End of Time is removed from normal time completely, so every time chrono and co went through there would be probably seen as near simultaneous for the Guru of time.
11
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Nostalgia as a central theme in CC.
« on: July 28, 2009, 10:30:41 pm »
I'm planning on doing a bigger write-up on this cause I think it's an interesting approach. Anyway.
Taking the introduction video and ending video, namely, the parts involving the journals, as a whole, it's... basically Kid reflecting on the events that happen in Chrono Cross. To the extent that I wonder if maybe Chrono Cross IS supposed to be the contents of that journal.
Couple this with the ending scene and ending song and the last bit of text about Kid searching for Serge, even if they might not recognize eachother. Saudade and sehnsucht are similar concepts to nostalgia, and they mean, more specifically, fondness for something lost or unattainble, and the search for something that might be unachievable, but there's some sort of fulfillment in the search. The lyrics of the ending song, translated, seem to carry a similar theme.
There's also a strong sense of reflection on the past in CC, in general. Serge and Leena's early dialogues on the beach, for instance, or pretty much everything involving Fargo or the Acacia Dragoons, the recurring theme of mementos and keepsakes, or, most obviously, the way that the entire multi-universe thing plays into the idea of seeing how things might have turned out otherwise.
Finally, I think you can also see Serge, in addition to being the arbiter of time, as a sort of change agent that rekindles some sort of... youthfullness or sense of adventure in the people he encounters, hence them all deciding to join up with him.
Radical Dreamers... I haven't played much. Just started recently. But it seems to have similar themes too.
Also, the campfire scene in CT. I wonder how relevant THAT might be, assuming nostalgia is an important theme in CC. I mean, that entire bit is about the Planet looking back on its life, and the characters wondering if they'll do the same in the future.
So, yeah. Whatever. Any thoughts? Contributions?
Taking the introduction video and ending video, namely, the parts involving the journals, as a whole, it's... basically Kid reflecting on the events that happen in Chrono Cross. To the extent that I wonder if maybe Chrono Cross IS supposed to be the contents of that journal.
Couple this with the ending scene and ending song and the last bit of text about Kid searching for Serge, even if they might not recognize eachother. Saudade and sehnsucht are similar concepts to nostalgia, and they mean, more specifically, fondness for something lost or unattainble, and the search for something that might be unachievable, but there's some sort of fulfillment in the search. The lyrics of the ending song, translated, seem to carry a similar theme.
There's also a strong sense of reflection on the past in CC, in general. Serge and Leena's early dialogues on the beach, for instance, or pretty much everything involving Fargo or the Acacia Dragoons, the recurring theme of mementos and keepsakes, or, most obviously, the way that the entire multi-universe thing plays into the idea of seeing how things might have turned out otherwise.
Finally, I think you can also see Serge, in addition to being the arbiter of time, as a sort of change agent that rekindles some sort of... youthfullness or sense of adventure in the people he encounters, hence them all deciding to join up with him.
Radical Dreamers... I haven't played much. Just started recently. But it seems to have similar themes too.
Also, the campfire scene in CT. I wonder how relevant THAT might be, assuming nostalgia is an important theme in CC. I mean, that entire bit is about the Planet looking back on its life, and the characters wondering if they'll do the same in the future.
So, yeah. Whatever. Any thoughts? Contributions?
12
Site Updates / Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« on: May 12, 2009, 02:59:22 pm »
Compared to that 3D Remake thingy's C&D, this C&D really, really looks incredibly... fake.
http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1416 <- Resurrection's.
I mean, seriously. Just compare them. Crimson Echo's C&D doesn't have any lawyer's backing, any substantial copyright information about Chrono Trigger itself... it just cites some sort of valid DMCA laws which can be found *anywhere*, and looks like it comes from a real address, which probably isn't hard to fake.
http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1416 <- Resurrection's.
I mean, seriously. Just compare them. Crimson Echo's C&D doesn't have any lawyer's backing, any substantial copyright information about Chrono Trigger itself... it just cites some sort of valid DMCA laws which can be found *anywhere*, and looks like it comes from a real address, which probably isn't hard to fake.
13
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: True beauty is found within a dying entity.
« on: April 14, 2009, 06:34:08 am »
Well, literally he's talking about Marbule, and why he doesn't want to save it. Marbule is dying, and he's finding beauty in this (Probably was referring to Zelbess at the same time, really). What I was talking about is more like, eh... assuming the Entity is the dying planet, maybe it was finding beauty in its own demise, which was the real reason it was shuffling Chrono and co. through the time gates, and that its intent wasn't actually to have Lavos stopped. The fact that Lavos can generally be fought by the player at their own volition sort of makes this seem more plausible to me too.
14
Characters, Plot, and Themes / True beauty is found within a dying entity.
« on: April 14, 2009, 12:40:34 am »
(Sorry if a similar topic already exists).
This line really stood out to me when replaying CC recently, partially because it doesn't seem to suffer from any omphaloskepsis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContemplateOurNavels) or fauxolosphical rantings, like that bit right after Serge turns into Lynx. Additionally, taken as a whole:
You can see that it's fairly punchy and stand alone. I don't know if I'd call any of the Chrono games well-written as a whole, but they do have some really good standout moments*. That being said...
The other things that's really interesting to me, though, is the greater thematic thing that I think this is pointing at. There is a line of thinking that CT's story isn't so much about SAVING the world as it is about the Entity kind of narrativizing itself to Crono and co. by leading them through the time gates and just showing them the history of the world, which is an interesting concept.
The particular usage of the word 'entity' is interesting here, since I can think of a lot of synonyms that would've had the same meaning without... the sort of additional meaning entity has to it. And it's not like it's a hugely common word choice here, so I'd say the writers likely knew what they were doing here (Or translators at the least). But still, I think it leads creedence to the notion that maybe CT really did have a lot to do with a dying entity telling its own (beautiful?) story.
I'm not sure what it says, thematically, about CC, though. What do you guys think?
This line really stood out to me when replaying CC recently, partially because it doesn't seem to suffer from any omphaloskepsis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContemplateOurNavels) or fauxolosphical rantings, like that bit right after Serge turns into Lynx. Additionally, taken as a whole:
Quote
You don't understand...
True beauty is found
within a dying entity.
Therefore, I will watch over
Marbule when its time comes...
Furthermore, you and I
have a contract.
For the time being, you
are in my possession.
What am I supposed to do
should anything happen to you?
That would be a great
financial loss for me...
You can see that it's fairly punchy and stand alone. I don't know if I'd call any of the Chrono games well-written as a whole, but they do have some really good standout moments*. That being said...
The other things that's really interesting to me, though, is the greater thematic thing that I think this is pointing at. There is a line of thinking that CT's story isn't so much about SAVING the world as it is about the Entity kind of narrativizing itself to Crono and co. by leading them through the time gates and just showing them the history of the world, which is an interesting concept.
The particular usage of the word 'entity' is interesting here, since I can think of a lot of synonyms that would've had the same meaning without... the sort of additional meaning entity has to it. And it's not like it's a hugely common word choice here, so I'd say the writers likely knew what they were doing here (Or translators at the least). But still, I think it leads creedence to the notion that maybe CT really did have a lot to do with a dying entity telling its own (beautiful?) story.
I'm not sure what it says, thematically, about CC, though. What do you guys think?
15
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre / CT Cast after Chrono Cross
« on: August 27, 2008, 01:46:52 am »Quote
CC leaves a lot of things to the player, in terms of figuring shit out. While that doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can quite frustrating. I agree with Captain B. Even if they make another chrono game, it will most likely not answer a whole lot of questions.
Yeah, but if everything was answered, then there wouldn't be all of these discussions ABOUT figuring stuff out, and then where would the fun be? It's the unsanswered stuff that makes the settings feel really alive.