Messages

1

General Discussion / What Is Your Innate Elemental?

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:48:06 pm »

What is Gemini affiliated with?

Either Water or Air.

I'm a Gemini as well, and I remember that someone told me Gemini's have the Air Innate.

2

General Discussion / How Old/Young You Are?

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:41:16 pm »

Wait, France has the bomb?

What the hell is it doing in the hands of those ignorant fuckers?

You say ignorant, but they also have stem cell research, and don't derrive their electricity from fossil fuels. Ignorance nothing; they have a future.

That, and I believe France is the only Western European country with a space program AT ALL.

Yeah, a future as long as America defends them.

...you forgot to say, "Pwned!"

3

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / I can't Believe I Never Noitced This Before

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:28:43 pm »

Who even knows whether one of those three "spots" is an eye at all?

16-bit sprites always looked pretty abstract to me.

The sprites of the Gurus always looked hard for me to interpret as well, especially Belthasar. Where are that man's eyes?!

4

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Relations Chart

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:26:24 pm »

I would hope that Magus gets a line drawn to Marle if only because he called her an idiot! A most humorous moment.

REALLY?! When did that happen?!  

5

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Moon Discrepancy

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:24:02 pm »

Zaper, Harle did NOT jump out of the moon.

Harle was simply standing on a parapet of Viper Manor, with the moon in the background, and she leaped off of the parapet.

After all, she still looked too big in relative size of the moon, to have leaped out of the moon.

After all, if Harle leaped out of the moon, she'd be jumping out into the vacuum of SPACE, not into the sky!

The moon isn't within the atmosphere of the planet, no matter how large the moon looks and thus makes it seem that way!

This cinema you're talking about...it's the one that plays during Scars of Time, yes? Is there any way of triggering it in-game? I have this image that you can because people here use that cinema as an example, and they're seeing things that I'm not (too fast? Not looking the right place?), and I'm wondering if the one that plays during the intro is just a clip from one in the game.

You're not alone; I've never seen this particular cinema scene in game, unless it's supposed to be part of the cinema scene that plays before your first visit to Viper Manor, in which we see the Manor, with the night sky in the background filled with the two moons, and we see a four-winged Dragon (probably the White Sky Dragon) fly by.

Indeed, if it's supposed to play at this part in the game, it gets skipped over when I play my disc on my PS2.

Either way, I only see this scene during the introductory cinematic amalgamation that precedes the title screen and the in-game demo movie.

6

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Chrono Cross: Attack on Dinopolis

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:21:36 pm »

Those stealth fighters are possibly the little stealth fighter monsters that roam around Chronopolis, obviousally not to scale size.

[Nitpicking]

No, there are no stealth fighter enemies in Chronopolis that look like the ones in that still scene.

If you're talking about the Aero Guards, they were white, and they were the only floating, hovering, flying machines in Chronopolis.

The stealth fighters shown in the still scene are clearly black.

[/Nitpicking]

7

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Moon Discrepancy

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:18:39 pm »

Zaper, Harle did NOT jump out of the moon.

Harle was simply standing on a parapet of Viper Manor, with the moon in the background, and she leaped off of the parapet.

After all, she still looked too big in relative size of the moon, to have leaped out of the moon.

After all, if Harle leaped out of the moon, she'd be jumping out into the vacuum of SPACE, not into the sky!

The moon isn't within the atmosphere of the planet, no matter how large the moon looks and thus makes it seem that way!

8

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Luccia = Lucca?

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:08:53 pm »

Kind of ironic, how FATE is against the will of the Entity, or the Planet, which is the actual Fate in so far as spirituality is concerned.

After all, FATE is just a computer system trying to preserve itself, and manipulating things physically to do so.

While the Entity, works far behind the scenes, affecting things physically, but with proverbially invisible hands.

After all, the Entity, the Planet, seems to favor the Reptites, as it is said that the Planet, seeing humans as being raised by Lavos, and just as foreign to the Planet as Lavos is, wants to rid itself of humanity.

9

Characters, Plot, and Themes / So are Serge and co...

« on: October 16, 2005, 06:04:15 pm »

I was actually thinking about this very point earlier.

Interesting that, Chrono Trigger portrays humanity as being basically good; the enemy being Lavos, something foreign to humanity and our planet for that matter, and Crono and company, representative of humanity, ridding the world of this threat, thus saving humanity.

...

However, in Chrono Cross, humans are portrayed as having a darkside. This is mostly evidenced by the chain of events surrounding the Masamune.

Humans also subjected demi-humans or otherwise drove them from the demi-humans' homelands.

Also, Crono and company have some dissonance, doubt and regret regarding what they did, traveling through time, changing history, and defeating Lavos. Indeed, perhaps in what they did, some people were adversely affected.

...

Why they decided to change the mood up for Chrono Cross, I don't know. I've just always seen 'Cross as a much more thematically mature plot than 'Trigger.

That's not to comment on the complexity of the plot, but 'Trigger doesn't really touch on themes like environmentalism, existential, racial, or any ethical issues at all. At least, not directly.

Sure, in the ending of 'Trigger, Marle and Lucca mention fate, but until 'Cross, we only perceive that mention lightly.

10

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Schala & Kid (in the ending)

« on: October 16, 2005, 05:51:26 pm »

Regarding Zealians' ages, they probably age more gracefully than normal humans, thanks to the power that they draw from Lavos.

After all, Queen Zeal certainly attained longevity by linking with Lavos; she managed to live from 12000BC to 2300AD, after Crono and company intervened in the Ocean Palace incident!

Janus, Schala, and Queen Zeal could all be much older than they actually look. However, as far as their metabolism is concerned, I surmise they have the equivalent ages of 7, 17, and 40, respectively.

11

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Was Lavos Trying to Shaft Itself?!

« on: October 10, 2005, 11:01:16 pm »

I have two grievances with your argument, Zenning. First, you ascribe a number of characteristics to Lavos that have no canonical basis in any of the games.

My second grievance is that much of the rest of your argument is based upon the fallacy that a specialized behavior equates to sentience.

I'm only supposing that boths side of the issue are possible.

What's so fallacious about that?

Besides, I thought you're the champion of "Artistic Interpretation?"

Indeed, they may be no evidence for, but it's not like there is evidence against, either.

12

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Chrono Cross: Attack on Dinopolis

« on: October 10, 2005, 10:54:31 pm »

Those stealth fighters, while they were cool, weren't given names.

They're just stealth fighters, probably controlled remotely by the FATE Computer system. They probably wouldn't have used human pilots. Use of human pilots has probably since become obsolete by the year 2400AD, but I'm only assuming.

FATE and Chronopolis attacked Dinopolis, as Dinopolis's presence, as far as FATE was concerned, probably would've been an immediate threat to FATE and Chronopolis's existence in the future.

Remember, FATE's entire purpose and part of its programming is to preserve itself so that Project Kid can be carried out. That, and so the normal course of history remains unchanged.

13

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Reconciling the Frozen Flame as Dreamstone

« on: October 10, 2005, 10:35:41 pm »

Interestingly, my conclusions are reinforced by something you yourself wrote recently in this thread:

Individual statements are underlined, with proofs following.

Dreamstone:

Dreamstone was present on the planet in 65million BC, before Lavos landed. The first time we visit Ayla, she pulls out her "Red Rock," the Dreamstone. Considering that Dreamstone was present on the planet before Lavos's landing, we can reasonably assume that it is a product of the planet.

Rapid, Abnormal Human Psychological Development due to Lavos and Frozen Flame:

In Chrono Cross, it is explicitly stated that the human mind developed three times faster than it normally would have, due to contact with Lavos, probably through the Frozen Flame.

It is stated in Chrono Trigger that someone/some people came in contact with a "Red Rock," (probably not Dreamstone, but the Frozen Flame, because Ayla and company certainly weren't super intelligent when they had the Dreamstone). With this power gained from this "Red Rock," Zeal was created.

Dreamstone Absorbs Lavos's Energy:

We know that the Mammon Machine was made of Dreamstone, and that the Red Knife made of Dreamstone, when thrusted into the Mammon Machine, absorbed energy from the Mammon Machine and became the Masamune. The energy that the knife aborbed was probably Lavos's, seeing as how the Mammon Machine extracted Lavos's energy. Henceforth, we can reasonably assume that Dreamstone absorbs Lavos's energy.

You agree with all of that? I thought your ideas were in opposition to mine...just to confirm, do you agree with that which I highlight in red?

Previously, I had held that the Frozen Flame and the Dreamstone were completely different. But your post raised some intriguing ideas, and I began to ask myself, “What is the Frozen Flame actually made out of?”

Indeed, I do hold that Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame are completely different, with different origins, and could not be created or modified from one into the other.

I had never liked the idea that it was just some nondescript splinter of Lavos that had fallen off at some point. The problem with this “just a splinter” idea is that, all else being equal, it makes the Frozen Flame non-unique. A piece of Lavos’ shell falling off would be like you shedding a piece of skin. What’s so special about that? Why aren’t there other Frozen Flames, then?

Just because the Frozen Flame is something that broke off of Lavos's body or that Lavos ejected it from its body doesn't mean it's not unique; it could still easily be the only Frozen Flame that Lavos had in or on its body, or perhaps Lavos can only make one Frozen Flame, or perhaps Frozen Flames may be dime-a-dozen, but difficult for Lavos to make.

But when you mentioned that the Dreamstone was so good at absorbing Lavos’ energy, and reminded us that it accelerated the evolution of humans, I thought to myself, “Golly, there might be a connection here.” And indeed, I got to thinking about the answer to my question of what the Frozen Flame is actually made out of.

I believe you misunderstand again; I believe it is the Frozen Flame that made humans highly intelligent, not Dreamstone.

Contact with Dreamstone didn't make humans abnormally intelligent, and the Frozen Flame did. That's all I really need to know to disprove the Frozen Flame = Dreamstone theory.

In this case, you are mistaken:

It all began aeons ago, when man's
ancestors picked up a shard of a
strange red rock...
 
Its power, which was beyond human
comprehension, cultivated dreams...
In turn, love and hate were born...
   
Only time will see how it all ends.

Indeed, this is something that remains a mystery. We don't know what the Red Rock was. It has been theorized to be Dreamstone, the Frozen Flame, and even the Sun Stone.

All we know for certain is that somehow, Lavos made humans highly intelligent.

As for what I highlighted in red, the person may be speaking in metaphor. He may simply be referring to the fact that Dreamstone made things like the Mammon Machine possible, because it is able to absorb Lavos's energy, and thus granted use of magic, and thus allowed one to "grant dreams."

The reason I believe that it is the Frozen Flame that made humans develop  high intellect abnormally is because it is stated that humans' contact with Lavos resulted in their abnormal mental development. However, how did Lavos do this? Through its emanations? Through the Frozen Flame? How?

Because, I believe the "Red Rock" that humanity acquired was indeed the Frozen Flame. If you remember, initially, it was folded up as a sphere. We see it in FATE's core in Chronopolis as a sphere, and then, again as sphere on top of Terra Tower. As a matter of fact, we see a cinema scene of the Frozen Flame unfolding from a spherical, seashell/snail's shell-shaped thing into a flame-shaped thing. It unfolded because of its contact with the Arbiter, and it was because there were no Arbiters around back when humanity acquired the Frozen Flame, that it appeared as a sphere, or as far as primitive man was concerned, a "rock."

Notice that, back in 65million BC, Ayla does not refer to her Red Rock as "Dreamstone." She just calls it a "Red Rock." I do not believe the term "Dreamstone" was coined until the dawn of Zeal; I believe Dreamstone was given its name because of its technological applications of absorbing Lavos's energy and granting use of magic.

Indeed, you are correct when you say there is a link missing.

For, there is no mention of the Frozen Flame in Chrono Trigger, and up until that point, we assume Zeal's Red Rock is Dreamstone.

But then, add the evidence from Chrono Cross that says it was Lavos who is responsible for humanity's accelerated evolution, and it muddies up the waters.

My evidence for the Frozen Flame giving humans their intellect is that, since Lavos gave humans their intellect, the Frozen Flame came from Lavos, and that the Frozen Flame allows one to link up with Lavos, I believe it is the Frozen Flame that is the Chrono world's version of "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."

My evidence against Dreamstone giving humans their intellect is that, the Dreamstone didn't make Ayla and company highly intelligent, and that even if Dreamstone absorbs Lavos's power (recall, the Masamune was born from a Dreamstone knife that absorbed Lavos's power), it still isn't enough to make its witness rapidly evolve; indeed, Frog did not advance to the next level of evolution even though he wielded the Masamune.

...

Interestingly enough, I see that Chronopolis used the Frozen Flame as a power source for its operations. And, given my previous arguments, Zeal in one way or another, was also founded on the use of the Frozen Flame. Thus, in that aspect, Chronopolis was a repeat of Zeal's mistake: both used "the power of the devil," proverbially and metaphorically, of course.

14

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Reconciling the Frozen Flame as Dreamstone

« on: October 10, 2005, 09:42:05 pm »

Mmmh... any comment about Karsh mistaking the pendant with the Frozen Flame

Karsh:
   Aaaah... That's a top-priority,
   classified secret.
   Its existence has been rumored
   in the northern countries
   for generations...
   Legend claims it contains
   mysterious powers which can
   guide anima and change
   history...
   But no details are known.

Karsh may simply mean that people on the Zenan mainland have been talking about the Frozen Flame, not that it necessarily exists on the mainland.

Interesting, that when El Nido refers to Guardia/Truce, they say North, but Porre has been specifically referred to as "a military superpower to the East."

If you remember Chrono Trigger, Guardia/Truce and Porre are located roughly North and South of each other. This I believe to be another inconsistency, unless the El Nido Archipelago is located South of Guardia/Truce, and East of Porre, thus making it Southwest from Guardia/Truce.

15

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Moon Discrepancy

« on: October 10, 2005, 08:53:52 pm »

Anyway, What do you mean the second red moon? There was only ever the big yellow moon. And the red moon only appeared during Harle's creation, for she is the representation of it.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Originally, there was only the one moon; white, silver, yellow, blue, whatever.

And then, the red moon eventually came along.

What do you mean by the creation of Harle?

How was Harle created?

...

Harle was nothing more than a human interface of the Dragon God, much like Lynx was the human interface of FATE.

How could Harle's creation or presence also create another moon?

Does that red moon disappear after we defeat the Dragon God?