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1

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

« on: September 08, 2005, 02:44:25 am »

Originally posted by AuraTwilight

The Planet

I remember coming to this very conclusion at one point, but that would mean that the Earth can create Time Gates at will, an ability which would only complicate things further if Earth had it - mostly because of the contradictions and inconsistencies that it would set forth.

Twenty years is a lot of time to conquer a passive country that could barely fight off a bunch of blue midgets.

Aye, blue midgets indeed - with a sorcerer as their leader. But nay, twenty years is far too short a time for what seemed to be one of the weakest and less militarized village to overthrow/conquer the region's strongest military power.

Personally, I've always said that their apparent, out of the blue discovery of powder was probably what did the trick, but alas! the slackers never gave as much as a hint about the whole thing.

I think I remember reading that the Amulet's power doesn't kick in until after she actually dies, like Tsukasa's pseudo-immortality in .hack//sign.

I remember reading that the Amulet's power is supposed to keep her from dying, and out of life-threatening situations.

This one still puzzles me a bit. Either 1) FATE didn't have full control of Lynx yet and he was absolutely bonkers, or 2) It was a subconscious program Belthasar put in to make sure Project Kid runs smoothly. Who knows?

Eh, about the first, it's too speculative and convenient, and besides, it's made more apparent, and it's much more reasonable, that Lynx equaled FATE from the get-go.

The second doen't fit in simply because, as we're told, all Lucca did was plant a bug in FATE's system to prevent it from reaching the Frozen Flame and whatnot. Programming FATE to create Lynx to idiotically kill Serge is plain absurd to even consider.

The Reptite dimensions DOES exist, so where do you get off saying it doesn't? Also, the Planet should roughly be as powerful as Lavos, so it should be able to do the same trick just fine.

Nay, it doesn't exist, for it doesn't branch off or originate from the original timeline - or rather, the "original" one as far as we know.

If Earth could alternately choose the future it preferred for itself, then why the hell would it allow the Human's future to prosper in any possible dimension or future? Or for that matter, if Earth had the absolutely necessary omniscience (and one heck of a touch of uber-power) to play in all past, present and future, how could it lose? Or hell, better yet, why the hell would it choose a future civilization, as a supposed "countermeasure" against Lavos' Chronopolis, that loses?

It's a fluff plot element that ultimaltely proves to be self-contradicting and inconsistent. To say that the Earth suddenly decided to pull back a civilization out of nowhere is a kick in the nuts.

The very notion that's implied herein and elsewhere --like, for instance, it being the famed "Entity"--, that the Earth is a single entity that trascends space-time and thus all dimensions, and that it's 'one and the same' in all of them is incoherent to and inconsistent with the whole mechanics and principles of the entire Chrono world, and would take a good long piss on the game's plot.

Originally posted by V_Translanka

But as she was merging and her mind was being corrupted by Lavos (& the Mammon Machine), she heard Serge's crying echoing through time. Now, it doesn't really say anything about her being in any particular time at all because it states that Serge's crying is echoing throughout time...The real question is why was Serge's crying so dominant in time?

Indeed that's the real question to be asked: What the hell made Serge so special back then, out of the millions of children that had suffered way more, in different time periods and quite possibly in his very own? And hell no, Schala was NOT omniscient too.

About Schala "passing by different/specific time periods" while she fell in the tesseract, it doesn't matter. It's a spacial distortion, separate or devoid of the force of time. What she did, according to CC, was reach out beyond the vortex temporarily to do her thing.

Uh, ZeaLitY said this forum, not this thread...but...w/e...I guess...

Bah, whatever. >.<

Uh, Elements? I dunno...Lucca did something w/Porre didn't she?

Not likely; Elements are much more abundant in El Nido anyways, and apparently it's of little attraction to those from the Zenan Mainland, as evinced by the Porre military's preference in guns.

Lucca? I really don't see her helping Porre out against Guardia...

Does FATE need Serge alive?

How else could it reach the Frozen Flame? It sure as hell couldn't do away with the Prometheus circuit/bug in its program.

Since the Planet no longer has to contend w/Lavos for it's almighty Planet energy juices, I'm sure that it's extra powerful in CC than it was in CT where it was just dying and making a few temporal portal things here and there....>_>

Eh, the whole point of pulling the "Reptite civilization" back in time was to ultimately contend against Lavos' will - as in, this face-off actually took place thousands of years in the past.

Originally posted by Chrono '99

From CT to CC, there isn't a span of twenty years but really a span of ten thousands and twenty years (1,000 AD to 2,400 AD, then Time Crash, then 7,600 BC to 1,020 AD).

Yeah, sure, but those X amount of years didn't fall on Porre and continued through a time bypass that departed from 1,000 A.D., and that eventually came back to its timeline after its own oddissey in space-time, eventually landing again on its timeline in 1,020 A.D. after oh so many years of being lost in different time periods.

So the point is, what, exactly, are you talking about? How do those events fit in or help explain anything about Porre's quick military superiority over Guardia? And if you're going to present the logically applicable "change" factor, then mind that you'll have to apply it to absolutely everything - thus just about everything we know of the Chrono world should in fact mean zilch, as nothing would've been the same; unless you're conveniently implying that Porre, and only Porre, was affected.

Originally posted by Sentenal

Not a plot hole. Just to let you know where I'm coming from, here it is. Zeality remarked you said CC was full of plot holes, and asked you to post them. You said okay, and then posted these. Us not knowing who the Entity is is NOT a plot hole. A plot hole is something unexplained that contradicts another, explained part of a series or plot.

Who or what the Entity is, is obviously not explained. The whole "Entity" deal I find to be contradicting because it's clear that it's intelligent, and that it was making its moves against Lavos. Yet it has time-bending capabilities, and everything plays out apparently according to its desires --thusly, everyone's a pawn.

Similar to how Belthasar planned everything out in CC, the Entity pretty much played its cards the way it did because it knew they'd do the trick in the end - why would it have made way for Crono and gang to reach the past and travel across time if it were otherwise?

Most agree it's the Planet.

I kind of agree, too. But we'd have to find ways to explain just how applicable to Earth is said title - which isn't all too easy considering all that it entails.

Kato said that Porre's rise to power was the result of some outside influence. Plus what Chrono'99 said. Plus, not a plot hole, its just something unexplained.

Anything that jumps from A to C, without ever setting foot on B, is a plot hole. It's an unexplained plot element: a plot hole - and more so because it's CT's damn sequel, as in, it's supposed to explain these things.

It rewinds time after something bad happens. You remmber Kid getting stabbed, and "dieing", yet being alive later in the game, not remmbering getting stabbed? Yeah. Not a plot hole.

One would say so, yes, but the fact that it did happen, and everyone else remembers it, means that she didn't go anywhere.

The pendant's power is not to give amnesia, dude, it's to take her to a safer point in time, where she's safe. If all it does is give amnesia after the events happen, then what the hell would it do if she just plain out died, as opposed to just getting stabbed and surviving the wound? Hm?

Eh, not too sure on this one myself.

I am. It be hole in plot.

It DID exist. In another dimension, where Lavos did not fall, and the Reptites won out. Plus what V_T and Aura said.

It still contradicts the Earth's very nature. If Earth could do that, it would mean that said dimension had no "Earth", or that there's only ONE Earth for ALL the dimensions. See what I mean?

In either case, they're idiotic elements that contradict the hell out of a butt-load of things. There has to be an Earth in the other dimension, or... what? It's only half of a dimension that appeared for the sole purpose to give away spare parts for the other dimensions?

And if you actually believe there's only ONE Earth for ALL dimensions, then why the hell wouldn't Earth just forget about all the other dimensions and simply stick to a way more favorable dimension as the one where the Reptites won, Lavos didn't fall, and Earth prospered and lived happily ever after? Logic speaks for itself, no?

Originally posted by ZeaLitY

Kato remarked that it's a story for "another time" (Chrono Break?).

Masato Kato also answered "maybe" to a bunch of questions made to him in an interview a few years ago about Chrono Cross, and other such answers that demonstrated doubt and insecurity on a plot and story that he wrote.

As for the theory, my point stands all the same, because FATE seeks to reach the Frozen Flame that's blocked from it, and the only way to accomplish this is by using Serge. Serge is an obstacle, yes, but eliminating him is illogical and would only present an even greater, irreparable obstacle.

Originally posted by Sentenal

I have a question now:

FATE still didn't have access to the Flame after he killed Serge. This is because Serge is still alive in on world. Why would that matter in Another?

That's not the point, though. It's always been that Serge is the Arbiter and thus the only one with access to the Frozen Flame. If he dies, there'd be no Arbiter to be found; FATE would lose all chances of reaching the Flame and would only continue to lose power, until eventually it would stand idle and powerless.

Why would FATE machinate its own demise, when it's been seeking god-like powers for who knows how many millenniums? It's retarded.

Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon

Also, if FATE decided to just capture the Porre people that came to explore and not let them leave, that would probably have just as much of an effect as letting them gain power through elements. Imagine half of Porre suddenly disappearing without explanation. The only way that FATE could possibly limit changes would be for it to have brainwashed all the settlers that came and made them think that they found empty ocean, but I doubt that they wandered into Chronopolis (was the sea of eden closed off at that time) or that FATE could send brainwashing things to meet them without even bigger changes.

Which reminds me: Chronopolis, or more specifically FATE, always tried to keep everyone from going out to the Mainlaind, and those from the outside, especially Porre, from coming to El Nido to invesitigate the Archipelago, in order to prevent them from doing anything that would undo the creation of FATE in the future. Yet Lynx is sent as an emissary to the Zenan Mainland to convince the inhabitants that the Frozen Flame is indeed in El Nido and urges them to move in and take over. Contradiction.

Originally posted by Zenning

Lynx still had a use for Kid and thus preserved her life.

What use?

He simply needed to incapacitate her before he could brainwash her.

What for?

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

« on: September 04, 2005, 02:03:12 am »

Alright then. Here are a few, putting aside the one about Belthasar's omniscience:


▬ Who or what, exactly, is the "Entity" that supposedly held sway over and manipulated just about all the events that took place in the Chrono world?

▬ How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?

▬ Kid's oh so special and magical pendant, turns out to be not so special, much less magical. It's supposed to keep Kid from being a victim of lethal injuries or any sort of life-threatening danger by taking her back in time to a safer point in time. Yet it doesn't, ever; not even as much as a little nudge or a spark or anything. She falls off a cliff, get's poisoned, stabbed and apparently brain-washed, and then falls comatose after trying to handle the Frozen Flame.

So really, what the hell was the point of saying it had such powers?

▬ Why on earth did FATE --Lynx, Dark Serge, or however else you wish to call it-- try to drown and thus kill Serge, the arbiter and its only key to reach the Frozen Flame, in 1010 A.D.? It makes absolutely NO sense, and NOTHING is said anywhere which would even attempt to explain such a moronic and contradicting move by FATE.

▬ How in the blue hell did the Earth deity pull back in time a civilization of Reptites (see, Dinopolis) from a dimension that didn’t even exist, as a countermeasure against Chronopolis? Go Earth and its half-assed omnipotence.


I know a couple more, I'm sure, but I have to search my memory a bit.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

« on: September 04, 2005, 12:49:10 am »

Originally posted by ZeaLitY

Hah! I'm going to search for their topics, provided they still exist. I hope they do, since it would be a pity for the "most knowledgable and witty" Chrono series theorists to have their work wasted by forum pruning. Oh, this will be excellent. The Compendium was founded upon analysis. Hopefully, if they still exist, they will come here. The knuckles have been cracked.

They're still there, mostly in the archives - those from version 5.0, I mean; everything from previous versions were, naturally, wiped out.

By the way, I noticed in that other thread that you remarked Chrono Cross was full of plot holes. If you still hold that view, would you care to share some? Chrono'99, stand by with the couple minor ones you've found until a response is given.

Sure thing. I could just copy some from the ones I posted at AvalancheOnline and paste them here, in a new thread. You can create the thread yourself and I'll post ASAP; let me know if you're in.

I've found one post called "Chrono Connections," but that seems to be it for the entire RPG Discussion forum. Don't tell me my worries about pruning are true!

Fortunately, they're not. Check out the Square Enix Archives and the Chrono Series Archives. Don't expect for all of them to include "Chrono" in the title, though.

If you have a hard time finding any good ol' debate threads, let me know and I'll give you a few links to some.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

« on: September 03, 2005, 12:55:38 pm »

Originally posted by ZeaLitY

What other forums have you argued this at? I'd like to know, as I maintain a list of the entire Chrono community for my own machinations.

In this thread at AvalancheOnline is where I most recently --over the span of about 8 months ago to the present point in time-- argued some of the points discussed in this very thread. At AvalancheOnline I go under the username Executioner, as evinced in this other thread in the same forums.


And also all over AllRPG, where I've found the most knowledgable and wittiest Chrono series debaters (such as King Zeal, LagDragon, Ice/Dreamless, TD, King Chrono, etc.), and where I learned most of what I know today. The group mentioned in the parenthesis was even called, at one point, the CSNP - Chrono Series Newbie Patrol, and they all gave their best since the very release of CC to analyze, research and discuss all of its elements, be it its mechanics, technical aspects, plot, characters, and so on.

I've also argued at other sites like PGNx.net, Legacy Nexus/Comic Legacy, and so on - Dark Saint and Fear being two of my handles.

5

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Time Devourer

« on: September 03, 2005, 07:12:31 am »

Meh, Dragon God, Lunar Dragon... the point is that it wasn't supposed to be called Time Devourer also.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

« on: September 03, 2005, 05:43:30 am »

Originally posted by V_Translanka

Okay, over at Chrono Shock, someone just told me that they don't believe that, and in fact think that the idea is complete BS, Belthasar planned out the events of CC...

Wow. I never thought you'd be so quick to the gun to jump to conclusions and seek help before even trying to understand what I wrote. But hey, let's try again now, slower this time: "I no say he no do it - I say it should have been impossible for him to do it."

And as for the character development bit, I'd rather ask both you and Lord J esque to discuss this with me at Chrono Shock, so to not mix up all the - well, subjects in just this thread. Lord J esque, feel free to repost your initial post in this thread over at the CS forum by copy/pasting it, if you will of course.

Originally posted by Rabid Joe

It's really pretty much impossible to have planned everything out in this way, manipulating all those god-like entities (The Planet, Fate, Time Devourer, The Dragon Gods). It requires a hefty amount of suspension of disbelief, and really, I think it was just a dumb plot twist.

Which was my precise, overlooked point at CS.

Originally posted by Sentenal

Hes a nut case. Belthasar didn't plan out the exact events, he made an outline that would eventually reach his goal. That is explicit.

Right. So, moving on to actual facts, let's dig in:

In CC, we eventually learn and are supposed to believe that all of the events that take place throughout CC, as well as another 10,000 years of human history, were predicted and planned out by ONE man – Belthasar.

So in essence, this would imply that he’s so amazingly smart and elite, that he could predict the future actions of not one, not two, but three different deities —Lavos, Earth and the Time Devourer (and Schala, if you want to count her as a deity)— and plan out ten millenia worth of history to his convenience, only so that one insignificant child could get his hands on the Chrono Cross – which, by the way, didn’t even exist to begin with, so we’re also expected to digest that he even planned out its very creation (as in, something that had no chances of existing, just popped up in his head one day and voila!, ze CC waz made).

It’s one thing to be a genius; it’s a whole different thing to be near omniscient. A bevy of the things he “planned out” were simply impossible. Take, for instance, the fact that he had absolutely no authority in Home World, where at least six years of major events took place - therefore figuring out the 'patterns' there and then merging them to his plans simply isn’t possible. Yet according to the “Time Crash”, he supposedly predicted things that were completely out of his very timeline, beyond all chances of his learning about them for them to even be a part of his "grand plan".

Pfft, what a load of (yes, I repeat) BS.

Originally posted by ZeaLitY

Those are the big points; easy enough to plan that when you have the greatest supercomputer ever created at your disposal.

Nay, you're wrong. He didn't have the "greatest supercomputer" at his disposal. It's made explicitly clear that he only laid the foundations for the time research facility known as Chronopolis with his own Time Research Laboratory. Yet he NEVER got to use his prized super-computer, FATE, because he disappeared sometime around 2,300 A.D., whereas FATE wasn't completed --through the reparation, alteration and reprogramming of the old Mother Brain-- until 2,400 A.D.

Originally posted by Sentenal

What Zeality said. I personally think he took a gamble with a few events. But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.

Dude, seriously, you've missed the point so many times already that it's getting annoying. I never said that he "didn't", but rather that the idea that we as gamers are supposed to buy into the BS of his planification of everything is absolutely preposteruous, because of everything that said plans represent or imply.

Originally posted by Chrono '99

Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.

If memory serves me right, it was explained in the very game that the Neo-Epoch could only be used once - thus the 'to and fro' travels are a no-no.

Originally posted by Rabid Joe

Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.

As I think also, hence my arguments.

Originally posted by Zenning

Being warped to the future, Belthasar had the opportunity to study all of the history that had gone on before, and thus, plan to rewrite history. The man had a lot of time, and a lot of intellect. All three factors coupled together, is what made it possible.

Yet even taking only that much into consideration, it's still only one timeline. What about the rest that are crucial to his plans?

Originally posted by V_Translanka

And that I still haven't been back for a rebuttle or anything...so...yeah, I was basing it on the post where DS says that the theory is BS, not that post where DS basically kind of tries to weasle out of it by saying that Belthasar only 'supposedly' planned it out...

I didn't try to weasle out of anything. Don't try to save face of your mistakes - it's very puerile of you to do so, especially behind my back as if believing that I wouldn't follow the link to this site that I believe you gave me.

And as proof that I wasn't "weasling out of it", I can easily offer links to other sites in which I've argued the exact same point with different people, who are way more responsible and mature than you've proven yourself to be. Hell, I dare you to ask for the links - or would you rather disappear from me again?


Now to respond to the three following all at once...

Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon

Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.

So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...

Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.

Originally posted by GreyLansman

It is remotely possible that Belthasar could use the FATE supercomputer to predict 10,000 years of human history with 100% accuracy. FATE also has some rudimentary understanding of the Frozen Flame and succeeded in conquering the Dragon God supercomputer. But I do not believe that FATE is able to comprehend, let alone manipulate, the transcendent, multidimensional intelligences of Lavos, the Time Devourer, or the Planet.

It is possible that Belthasar used the Neo-Epoch to tweak history, but he only mentions time traveling to 1020 AD to check on the success of Project Kid.

Belthasar designed and built FATE. Could not Belthasar have hidden FATE's true mission from its conscious awareness? A human being is conscious, but it is not aware of the inner workings of its mind. The Prometheus Circuit is part of FATE, but it is hidden from FATE's consciousness.

FATE may also have been aware of Project Kid in its entirety, and knowingly fullfilled its mission as planned by Belthasar.

Nope, Belthasar didn't have FATE, because as I said somewhere above, it was completed about 100 years after he disappeared in the future.

And FATE's main purpose in El Nido --which was its entire reach-- was just to influence people's actions, but not entirely control them.

As for the Neo-Epoch, I reiterate that it is said that he could only use it once, for whatever reason.

Just because FATE acted like a renegade computer, doesn't actually mean it was one.

I agree; it eventually turns out that FATE was actually on the human's side, in its own way.



And with that, I defend myself, even though V-Translanka didn't have the marbles to give me said chance, or face me directly. Oh and, cool place by the way.

7

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Time Devourer

« on: September 03, 2005, 04:16:38 am »

Originally posted by Kazuki


The TRUE Time Devourer is the one in the Darkness Beyond Time, which is the Lavos/Schala fusion. I don't believe the 6 dragon god combination TD has the power to, well, devour time and space, like the Lavos/Schala one, so...

True. The real Time Devourer is the one in the tesseract. The other one, as I recall it once being mentioned elsewhere, resulted from a mistranslation; it was supposed to be called, plain and simple, the Dragon God.

Apparently the temporary form that the TD took outside the tesseract was of the likeness of the old, now consumed Dragon God.