Poll

Who do you think is the strongest Guru?

Belthesar
10 (41.7%)
Gaspar
6 (25%)
Melchior
8 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: July 06, 2005, 05:59:59 am

Author Topic: The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?  (Read 7392 times)

Legend of the Past

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2005, 03:31:39 pm »
The TE, too, travelled through time and is protected thanks to TTI.

EDIT: Besides, since when can something this powerful is effected by time?

V_Translanka

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2005, 02:44:35 am »
Ok, but I remember there was a 3D graph thing giving details about the effects of the Time Egg...and I thought that was what they were studying...And that it also stated that Lucca was the one who designed it...

:?

Legend of the Past

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2005, 03:02:07 am »
That 3D graphic was in Chronopolis, and the idiots there treated it like a thoery and nothing else. And they said Lucca designed it, because she first invented them for as far as they know. They treat Zeal like a legend. While Lucca could make uncomplete Time Eggs, the word incomplete kind of points that she never completely understood how Time Eggs work. Sole theory, nothing else.

AuraTwilight

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2005, 12:10:13 pm »
The Time Eggs are pure potential, and are only as powerful as the effort put into it. I'm sure someone has the effort and the potential to make a Time Egg Time Travel ^_^

Legend of the Past

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2005, 12:17:54 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
The Time Eggs are pure potential, and are only as powerful as the effort put into it. I'm sure someone has the effort and the potential to make a Time Egg Time Travel ^_^


I doubt the guys over at Chronopolis consider dreams as a power...

Chrono'99

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2005, 12:18:23 pm »
Quote
[Lucca]
   The Time Egg...
   The ancient sage, Gasper,
   once called it the Chrono
   Trigger
, you know!?

Quote from: SilentMartyr
Hubba Whubba? How can they use the same Time Egg that they used for Crono? The damn thing shattered!

The Time Egg used in CC precisely looks shattered, it looks like a rotten pear instead of a egg like in CT... And Lucca says that Gaspar called it (the one that the party shows her) Chrono Trigger, not 'called one' or 'called another one'.

SilentMartyr

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2005, 09:41:02 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote
[Lucca]
   The Time Egg...
   The ancient sage, Gasper,
   once called it the Chrono
   Trigger
, you know!?

Quote from: SilentMartyr
Hubba Whubba? How can they use the same Time Egg that they used for Crono? The damn thing shattered!

The Time Egg used in CC precisely looks shattered, it looks like a rotten pear instead of a egg like in CT... And Lucca says that Gaspar called it (the one that the party shows her) Chrono Trigger, not 'called one' or 'called another one'.


I'm wondering how it made it back to 1020 then, since Bethasar was gone by the time they (Group minus Crono) used it.

Chrono'99

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2005, 10:38:53 pm »
Lucca or the party could probably keep it after they ressurected Crono, and Belthasar would then just need to go meet them and 'borrow' it.

V_Translanka

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2005, 06:15:06 am »
I don't think the usage of the word "it" matters in this sense. I mean, if I were to take Lincoln Logs and say, "A Lincoln Log...A long time ago, Licoln, called it just 'log'." or w/e...ok, so I'm bad at analogies...

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2005, 03:21:53 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote
[Lucca]
   The Time Egg...
   The ancient sage, Gasper,
   once called it the Chrono
   Trigger
, you know!?
   Each of us allows our
   feelings to be a trigger...
   Letting them loose changes
   our world, time, and history!

It's sad, the only time Gaspar is mentioned in the whole game is with a typo in his name...


Not neccessarially. Gasper, and Casper, are merely alternate spellings of the same name. As such, Lucca might simply have been using a different convention. It's like Belthesar being Balthesar, or Balthezar, or Belthezar. None of these are typos, per say, they are merely different forms. To use Bal is nearer the Caananite Baal, which has the exact same meaning as the Babylonian (thus Akkadian language, I think) Bel. Personally, I think that Belthezar is probably the nearest to the actual one.

As far as power goes, I forget what I said before in this thread, but I will have to wager Gaspar. I'm not certain what sort of control over time he may boast, if any, but there is the fact that he lies at the End to consider. If he resides there, in a place that is eternity, than he knows all things that have been throughout all time. That is his gift, ultimate knowledge and thus wisdom. That is a force not to be underestimated. As I said before, Melchior is a mystic, and Belthesar a scientist... but even sorcery and craft can not stand up to one who could gauge and judge the ways and intents of all he meets, and knows the outcome of all things.

Zaperking

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2005, 06:20:54 pm »
Melchior... a mystic? Lol as in the impy Mystics or just like a sorceror.?

And I'd probably agree with what you said about the knowledge, but I don't think he really looks into Time that much, I mean with all that information, your head would explode. But It is true that he can look through time. Otherwise he wouldn't have told all the party members their side quests, so obviousally he can see whats happening. But besides that, he's not very useful, and it only seems that only one Chrono Trigger was ever made. Lazy old coot >.>

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2005, 07:40:55 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Melchior... a mystic? Lol as in the impy Mystics or just like a sorceror.?


A sorcerer, though I'd use that term for anyone of Zeal, so I meant something more specific. Mystic in this was meant to mean the opposite of a scientist.

Zaperking

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2005, 03:18:12 am »
Oh Oo, Well I'd kind of have to disagree then. He's not that much opposite to a scientist. He still uses basic science to create weapons using crafting skills. And he's not very magical because he can't see into the future. Though I'd call him a Sage if I had to because he's more of a kind old person who wants to protect everything and is spiritual. Unless by Mystic, you ment Spiritual too, because that's what he pretty much is.

BTW, There was a quote in Zeal that stated that all dreams must dissapear, but Lavos' magic will make them come true. Can this apply to Masa, Mune and Doreen? By Melchior really sealing them in the Masamune and whatever, when the red knife hit the Mammon Machine, they were acctually created ?

Beer Pope

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2005, 03:31:33 am »
Quote from: Zaperking

BTW, There was a quote in Zeal that stated that all dreams must dissapear, but Lavos' magic will make them come true. Can this apply to Masa, Mune and Doreen? By Melchior really sealing them in the Masamune and whatever, when the red knife hit the Mammon Machine, they were acctually created ?


What do you mean by created?  I suppose Lavos' power permeating the Ruby Knife would cause Masa, Mune, and Doreen to become something more, but they were already in Zeal before the Ocean Palace incident.

Things regarding the Masamune are a complicated prospect, and discussions could last an eternity. Let us not completely derail the topic with this side discussion.

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2005, 01:36:10 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Oh Oo, Well I'd kind of have to disagree then. He's not that much opposite to a scientist. He still uses basic science to create weapons using crafting skills. And he's not very magical because he can't see into the future. Though I'd call him a Sage if I had to because he's more of a kind old person who wants to protect everything and is spiritual. Unless by Mystic, you ment Spiritual too, because that's what he pretty much is.


He is actually very much the opposite, or at least appears to be. Crafting of weapons is an art, a craft, but not a science. Belthesar's things are machines: the Wings of Time, the BlackBird, Chronopolis, even his whole plan, 'Project Kid', was likely based upon scientific principles. He is called the Guru of Reason, after all. Reason, logic, these are the things of science. As I've said before, he is Aristotilian, and it is Aristotle that sets the groundwork for what later develops into our sciences: we view the truth of things as existing in what we can see and sense of them.

Melchior is, again as I have mentioned before, of another, a Platonic, tradition. His title of Life appears to hint at this as well. Life being a more supernatural force, if it were - or at least in so far as spirits and the soul is concerned. I'd wager that Melchior cares less about how things actually work and look, than what they mean, and would hold the truth of them to lie behind in a spiritual world, rather than our world seen to the senses. You use the word spiritual for him, in fact, which is precisely what I meant by mystic. But one cannot conclude that he is not very magical because he lacks extreme foresight. After all, if any in Zeal had had sufficient foresight, they would have sought to stay the day of ruin that was swiftly approaching in the years nearly before the destruction of that kingdom. Or, rather, it may be seen that he DID have foresight, for who other but the Three endeavoured to counter the purposes of the Queen? Schala only, and she either knew of this terrible doom herself through prophetic whisperings, or else learned about it from the masters themselves. But whether or not he possessed foresight is irrelevant: prophecy and seer-craft would likely have been the province of Gaspar. Melchior, through his mystical (or if you wish, spiritual means) forged weaponry - I would hold him to have been the court smith and philosopher of Zeal. Gaspar was the court prophet. And Belthesar the court wise-man in the things of science. However, one must remember that the old form of philosopher is something different than most think it to be today. Philosophy simply means the 'love of wisdom', and in ancient days a philosopher not only theorised on the meaning of life, but upon the nature and ways of the world - they were the scientists until some hundred years ago, when philosophy and science took its seperate courses. So Melchior may have indeed known and used a little science, I concede it, but at least in the forging of the Masamune, his greatest work, I consider him to work not through any scientific means, but merely mystical ones.