Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox

[yoshimon2k]

This is just an idea but it's been stewing around for a little while now.

I think most of the problem with this specific paradox isn't necessarily the traditional grandfather paradox. I think it's got something to do with the fact that Marle replaces her ancestor.

It might not be that her direct ancestor has gone missing. Maybe it's because of what may have happened if Marle never left 600 AD.

I don't percieve her to be the type of girl who would play along as being the Queen when it came time to produce an heir.

Quite frankly it may be that no other alternate ancestor would have been able to continue the bloodline in such a way that Guardia could still rule.



The only other idea I have is very sketchy.

Marle disappearing was a temporary thing, whether we knew it or not.

It's likely she would have disappeared even if Crono had not shown up. The problem would still exist. But this is not a classical grandfather paradox.

Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.

Marle disappears in a delayed manner because of Temporal Inertia. She reappears later once the real queen is found, again at a delay.

I think Leene would have been found either way. Guardia is large. All the troops could not have been informed yet of the queen's return. This can be evidenced by Frog still searching when the party reaches the chapel.

Also people had noticed differences between Marle and Leene. Frog could very reasonably been able to tell that the two women are very different. Marle could have been found to be an imposter very easily. After that the search would be continued with renewed vigor.

But Temporal Inertia could explain the entire set of circumstances. It takes time to write Marle out and it takes time to write her back in.

*Edit* Typo corrections

[Mystik3eb]

Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.

Ok...but why did she disappear? How?

[evirus]

Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.

Ok...but why did she disappear? How?

i would point you to my earlier post hear like a page or two back where i talk about my buffer theroy

[ZeaLitY]

it appears that my buffer theory has been steam rolled again without any reasoning as to how it dosn't work

Changes to the timeline are instant; it's the same reason Temporal Inertia doesn't really work. That, coupled with Time Traveler's Immunity, means Marle wouldn't be affected.

[Theicedragon]

I still think that its possible that changes in CT only are instant to the people(or things) inside that particular flow of time.

[GrayLensman]

Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers.  Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous.  As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred.  If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.

[evirus]

Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers.  Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous.  As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred.  If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.

exactly, it it was instentanous all chrono would have to do is give em the jerky and and be able to reach in his pocket and find the moonstone

[Augenstein]

It's a mistake almost every form of chronologically-phasing fiction makes. Marle wouldn't have dissappeared. This is a mistake on the developers' part.

[Theicedragon]

Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers.  Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous. As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred.  If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.

But thats where I think that people miss.  Crono doesn't have to wait before the Porre Elder becomes generous because the Elder was not time traveling, crono was.  Now if he was taken into the past with Crono when he gave the jerky to his ancestor, then You would see him gradually change in front of crono.  The key I think is that you have to be outside the normal flow of time.  Marle was outside the normal flow of time, she didn't belong in 600AD, therefore when the search was called off it took time for her to disappear because her 1000ad self was in the past.  Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, and it doesn't work. Time Travelers Immunity says that Time Travelers aren't effected by their own changes at all.

[GrayLensman]

But thats where I think that people miss.  Crono doesn't have to wait before the Porre Elder becomes generous because the Elder was not time traveling, crono was.  Now if he was taken into the past with Crono when he gave the jerky to his ancestor, then You would see him gradually change in front of crono.  The key I think is that you have to be outside the normal flow of time.  Marle was outside the normal flow of time, she didn't belong in 600AD, therefore when the search was called off it took time for her to disappear because her 1000ad self was in the past.  Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?

If the Porre Elder travelled to 600 AD, he would have time traveller immunity.

Did Magus gradually loose his memories or otherwise change in 12,000 AD?  He was there for weeks or months, yet at North Cape he recalled the original events of the Ocean Palace disaster.  The new version of Janus wasn't even there.

The extra elemental armours do not gradually disappear if they are removed from 1000 AD and 600 AD.  That is even the same time-frame as Marle's disappearance.

If something is going to gradually change, what defines the intermediate states?

The existence of paradoxes, like Marle's disappearance, make time travel as seen in the series impossible.  Even killing Lavos in 1999 AD, thus eliminating the Day of Lavos record from the future, would be a paradox.  Only TTI adequately describes the majority of events in the series.