Arbiter, Chrono Trigger discussion.

[ZeaLitY]

Aitrus Colso: The only "flaw" that I can find is explaining the time travel in CT within a "dimensional split" theory that CC requires, but that's not a real big challenge.
GrayLensman01: The dimension split happened because Serge is the "Chrono Trigger"?
Aitrus Colso: I think that's the reason they remained somewhat connected, not why they split.
Aitrus Colso: I could be wrong, but that's my belief on the matter

GrayLensman01: What is a Chrono Trigger?
XJPGiiX: The only thing I could deduce on the axioms thread is that Kid's rewriting of time to save Serge caused the dimensional split perhaps due to the gravity of Serge to the continued existence of the universe.
GrayLensman01: How is Serge similar to the Time Egg?
XJPGiiX: I believe it is an entity, whether item or person, that has great potential to bring about change in time.
XJPGiiX: Belthasar had to have planned the dimensional split. He thus would ahve had to exploit a rule of time and space to cause it.
XJPGiiX: This allows us to operate within the confines of a (well, ingenious) human mind.
GrayLensman01: Crono was "important" to the universe.  That is what allowed the time egg to work.  Was Serge also important in that regard?
XJPGiiX: Most certainly, as he was the only person capable of defeating the Time Devourer.
XJPGiiX: At least, that Belthasar observed.
Aitrus Colso: True.
Aitrus Colso: It could be possible that, had Serge died and, well, remained dead, that another would have come forward to defeat the TD
XJPGiiX: Hmm...
XJPGiiX: If...
XJPGiiX: Well, this is the root of the old Project Kid thread.
GrayLensman01: You guys type too fast.
XJPGiiX: How might Belthasar have had the power to foresee all this, and cause something as minute as Serge to be born amidst a number of variables?
XJPGiiX: Ah...blessing or curse.
GrayLensman01: I usually take an hour to formulate my posts on the forums.
Aitrus Colso: I doubt he had the power to make him be born.  However, he did have the ability to see that he was, and what he would have the potential to do.
Aitrus Colso: I know what you mean.
XJPGiiX: Something to be coveted, Lensman. I often feel I post too rashly and quickly.

XJPGiiX: Was Serge's ability to defeat the Devourer dependent on his status as the Arbiter?
Aitrus Colso: It usually takes me a while to write them, but that's mostly because of my talking to a myriad of people
Aitrus Colso: That's the question, isn't it.
Aitrus Colso: It could be that his ability to defeat the Devourer was the cause of his status of Arbiter
XJPGiiX: This may be the sole reason, as perhaps...Belthasar had to fate that one who would catch Schala's eye and thus be designated as Arbiter must come into existence.
XJPGiiX: Hm.
XJPGiiX: This is very interesting, although strangely vague.
XJPGiiX: We should post a log of this portion of the chat on the forums, perhaps?
GrayLensman01: Did Schala only notice Serge because he was the Arbiter/Chrono Trigger?
Aitrus Colso: I doubt that.
XJPGiiX: Schala, out of her more beautiful qualities, took pity on Serge due to his affliction and impending death.
XJPGiiX: She directed him to Chronopolis so that the Flame would heal him.
XJPGiiX: As a nifty side-effect, he became the Arbiter. This might be more attributed to Belthasar more than Schala, as she may not have been aware of the entire Frozen Flame thing.
Aitrus Colso: I guess that's the real question, then.  Was Serge the "Chrono Trigger" before touching the flame, or was it only as a side effect of touching the Flame?
XJPGiiX: I believe I have an answer, but its stored on the Compendium. Allow me to dig.
Aitrus Colso: Because if Schala noticed him only because he was the Trigger, then that would mean he was fated to fight the TD from birth.  If he was only that way because of the Flame, then he was noticed by Schala as much out of luck than for
Aitrus Colso: any other reason, and that the Flame was what enabled him to fight the TD.
GrayLensman01: I thought Serge's Chrono Trigger status was required to access the Flame.
XJPGiiX: Lensman, the magnetic storm incurred by Schala in order to direct Serge to the Flame knocked out Chronopolis' identification system
XJPGiiX: There truly is no formal system for identifying a Chrono Trigger, but as for Arbiter, Serge would certainly have not been granted access were it not for the storm
XJPGiiX: Would the question of why Lynx designates Serge a C. Trigger have relevance?
XJPGiiX: I think this is what is answered on the Compendium.
XJPGiiX: Excellent. The question isn't answered.
Aitrus Colso: What was the answer to why Lynx called him that?
XJPGiiX: Lynx is a being of FATE.
XJPGiiX: FATE knows of Serge and that his status as Arbiter may have huge temporal implications.
XJPGiiX: In fact, so huge that they caused the Dead Sea in the Home Dimension.
GrayLensman01: Scanner: Analyzing... Please stand by. .........Analysis complete. Fingerprints, retina, and C class DNA all clear. Data discrepancy due to aging within permissible range.
XJPGiiX: Thus, Serge's 'pure potential' as Gaspar called it would be responsible for his being named a Trigger.
GrayLensman01: 96%confirmation that this individual is the last registered arbiter. Access granted. Welcomeback, Chrono Trigger.
XJPGiiX: Oh, man.
XJPGiiX: I forgot all about that.
XJPGiiX: For some reason, I feel as if something integral to this discussion is residing in my subconscious
XJPGiiX: Refusing to rise.
XJPGiiX: Perhaps a thing of Belthasar's?
XJPGiiX: That explains why Lynx calls him the C. Trigger, as Chronopolis recognizes him as such.
XJPGiiX: Belthasar built FATE, and thus would have been responsible for the naming's coding in the system.
Aitrus Colso: True.
XJPGiiX: Any other possibilities? If not, we might be able to place the responsibility of Serge being named a Trigger on Belthasar.
XJPGiiX: Which suggests he was from birth fated to do this.
XJPGiiX: Ah, I hate letrimh's site.
Aitrus Colso: It's entirely possible that either he just chose the Arbiter's name, well, arbitrarily, or that he knew of Serge's status as a Chrono Trigger and chose the name that way.  Or that the Flame is what caused his Trigger status.

GrayLensman01: It Chrono Trigger just a title, or an actual physical state?
XJPGiiX: I believe its a title, considering Time Eggs can be manufactured in quantities greater than one, yet a certain Time Egg, similar to others as far as we can gather, was named a Trigger.
Aitrus Colso: I think it's a physical state, or possibly a "spiritual" state, if you want to delve into metaphysics and destiny
XJPGiiX: It was simply the one to revive Crono, who would defeat Lavos. It was the instigator of great change.
XJPGiiX: Well, Belthasar supposedly had to simulate everything that would happen.
Aitrus Colso: Well, why didn't the other Time Eggs, if there were any, have the ability to do so?
GrayLensman01: The Chrono Trigger time egg froze time.  Could any other time egg do that?
XJPGiiX: I'm sure they could. Chronopolis speaks of devices that were possibly made by Lucca that could cause wormholes and allow time travel, while we see this in Kid's amulet, which reverses time for her.
XJPGiiX: Ah...that is ... the main point, then, Lensman.
XJPGiiX: Freezing time. Proving it is a flow, while defying principles.
Aitrus Colso: I thought they were talking about the Gate Key when they said that, Zeality
XJPGiiX: One sec, I'll check the Compendium script.
XJPGiiX: Ok, resolved. Computer: Let's see... In the 11th Century, a scientist by the name of Lucca indicated the possibility of time travel through the use of a "Time Egg,"
XJPGiiX: She probably 'indicated' such after observing the power of the Time Egg in Chrono Trigger.
GrayLensman01: The Gate Key only stabalizes Gates.
Aitrus Colso: mWell, a "devices that were possibly made by Lucca that could cause wormholes and allow time travel" could fit that description.  Gates are portals through time and sometimes space.  
Aitrus Colso: A wormhole, theoretically, would not only allow movement through space, but under certain conditions allow time travel, as well.
XJPGiiX: What an odd and complicated world.
Aitrus Colso: Hey, this is our world I'm talking about right there.
Aitrus Colso: That's real Quantum theory
GrayLensman01: The Entity created the Gates in the first place.  If Lucca recreated them later, it would have nothing to do with the Gate Key.
XJPGiiX: Ah. But non-Entity gates are of course certainly possible. Would they also require a gate key to stabilize?
XJPGiiX: Perhaps so. The model at Chronopolis shows curved space rotating to a singularity.
XJPGiiX: I don't think such a thing could be survivable by humans; rather, the hole would have to be expanded to accomodate travelers.
GrayLensman01: A wormhole located at a singularity doesn't go anywhere.
Aitrus Colso: That's the problem with wormholes.
XJPGiiX: Yes, my knowledge is lacking in real world applications.
XJPGiiX: Perhaps these rules might allow us working knowledge..
XJPGiiX: Ah, stupid paste limit.
Aitrus Colso: They always meet at a singularity in the middle.  Any usable one would have to avoid that somehow in the travel
XJPGiiX: Computer: According to her theory, by rotating a single point of supergravity, space-time continua can be drawn in...
Aitrus Colso: Which I'm assuming that the Gate Key would allow for.
XJPGiiX: thus making it possible to transform that singular point which pulls in everything else, into a ring formation.
XJPGiiX: Using this ring as a Gate between dimensions, it should be possible to travel back and forth between various space-time.
XJPGiiX: Good point.
XJPGiiX: Ah, I see.
XJPGiiX: The Time Egg might allow such a phenomenon, and the Gate Key would stabilize it by creating this ring in which to pass through?
GrayLensman01: Marle and Crono pass through gates without the use of the Gate Key.
Aitrus Colso: But in that instance, her pendant is acting as such through the aid of the Teleporter
Aitrus Colso: Lucca specifically states that when she meets you in Guardia Castle
XJPGiiX: The Entity also may have bent space time to allow that as well, as it instigated that event.
Aitrus Colso: True, but then again, the Entity put the gates there in the first place.
GrayLensman01: Don't be two hasty to credit event to the entity which can be explained by other phenomena.  The pendant, in conjunction with the telepod opened the Gate, but it was unstable.  Lucca perfected this mechanism with the Gate Key.
Aitrus Colso: Exactly
XJPGiiX: Got it.
GrayLensman01: When opened, Gates transform from a point (singularity) to a sphere/disk.
XJPGiiX: If we've reached an ending...perhaps we should retrace our findings to the original issue and attempt to solve it?
Aitrus Colso: Might be a good thing to do.... what was our original issue?
XJPGiiX: May I post what we have so far on a temporary thread? It may be easier to review that way.
XJPGiiX: We've found a lot of good stuff by deduction alone in this chat.
XJPGiiX: Well, and other types of reaosning.

GrayLensman01: No, wait.  A time egg is a self contained gate.
Aitrus Colso: It would have to be, wouldn't it?  There was no gate at the top of the mountain.
GrayLensman01: The singularity is expanded by rotating space time.
XJPGiiX: Here we are at another odd occurrrence. Why exactly did the moon eclipse the sun? An action of Crono beyond the grave?
XJPGiiX: Ah...
XJPGiiX: This is amazing. You've produces a concise definition of a Time Egg.
XJPGiiX: A self-contained gate.
Aitrus Colso: The eclipse could simply be a space-time compression caused by the opening of said gate, as it is different in nature from the others.
GrayLensman01: The time freeze/reversal are relatavistic effects, generated by the singularity.
Aitrus Colso: Since the Egg would have to create the gate, a concept we have never seen in the rest of the series, then it could very well cause some severe stress on space-time
XJPGiiX: Indeed. The Astral Amulet, though an incomplete Time Egg, may not be applicable for that reason. It seems to only reverse Kid's personal time. Wait, allow me to check the script.
XJPGiiX: Ah, wait.
XJPGiiX: There is another instance of a Time Egg being used. Belthasar gives Serge one to travel to the Tesseract through.
XJPGiiX: This validates the self-contained gate definition.
XJPGiiX: Though the Tesseract might be a special 'region' of time and space, it nonetheless exists in the same confines.
GrayLensman01: It may be outside of normal space-time.  Other worlds/space-time coordinates are visible from within the tesseract.
Aitrus Colso: The same arguement can be made about the End of Time.  It isn't quite in normal space-time, even though gates allow travel to it.
Aitrus Colso has left the room.
Aitrus Colso has entered the room.
XJPGiiX: I hate to divert the subject once more, but the Tesseract; does it not only show periods from the planet? Btw, you didn't miss anything, Aitrus.
Aitrus Colso has left the room.
Aitrus Colso has entered the room.
Aitrus Colso: Sorry about that
XJPGiiX: Np.
XJPGiiX: XJPGiiX: I hate to divert the subject once more, but the Tesseract; does it not only show periods from the planet? Btw, you didn't miss anything, Aitrus.
Aitrus Colso: Ok.
XJPGiiX: I don't think this is relevant, as it would mean the Time Devourer only exists to devour that one planet.
XJPGiiX: So nevermind.
GrayLensman01: The planet exists within multiple dimensions.

XJPGiiX: Another problem. Is the Devourer capable of devouring all reality, including all dimensions? I don't believe so simply because there can be infinite dimensions, and this would be an unbelievable feat, unless the Time Devourer were
XJPGiiX: to unravel the very fabric of reality itself, perhaps a base on which dimensions are founded on.
XJPGiiX: Perhaps eliminating Fire, Water, Heaven, Shadow.
XJPGiiX: Sorry for going off too far.
GrayLensman01: The TD would probably consume dimensions at a finite pace, but would threaten all reality.
Aitrus Colso: I would think that it would be capable of devouring a single dimension, not all of them.  Destroying them all would be too much power for a single monster, and would be truly inexplicable.
Aitrus Colso: After all, how do you go from being a creature to destroy one world to one to destroy all reality?
GrayLensman01: Merge with Schala?
Aitrus Colso: The only problem with your theory, Gray, is that, since it's outside of time, even a finite pace would pass by instantly.
Aitrus Colso: Well, even she wouldn't give it that much of a power boost.
XJPGiiX: ...Astounding. The Chrono series is breathtaking...
GrayLensman01: If that were the case, why does it take finite for the TD to develop.  The TD would have appeared the instant of Lavos defeat.
Aitrus Colso: Point taken.  I don't know.
GrayLensman01: Aitrus Colso (1:47:58 AM): Well, even she wouldn't give it that much of a power boost. --The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Aitrus Colso: Now there's a hole in my theories. *sheepish grin*
Aitrus Colso: True, but I still find that hard to believe

XJPGiiX: Lavos is capable of physical destruction and temporal disruptions alone.
XJPGiiX: What power does Schala imbue him with?
XJPGiiX: And would the Dragon God have any implications? It also is consumed.
GrayLensman01: Did the Dragon God become part of the TD, or was is simply eaten?
Aitrus Colso: That is a good question.
GrayLensman01: This is what happens when I type fast.
Aitrus Colso: I'd never thought about it, but since the Dragon God would be pretty much an antithesis to the TD, why is it called the Time Devourer at the end of the game?
XJPGiiX: I believe Belthasar says so because it fights you from within the TD.
Aitrus Colso: ??
XJPGiiX: The Dragon Gods themselves are just sort of emanations from the consumed DRagon God.
XJPGiiX: Yes...I can find the quote if you need me to.
XJPGiiX: The Dragon God battles you from within the Time Devourer, where it still has some degree of existence.
Aitrus Colso: Where is that?  I don't remember that.
XJPGiiX: One second.
XJPGiiX: Belth. says it best. I cnofused his quote.
XJPGiiX: Belthasar: That thing... the "Dragon God"... is only a quasi-existence... ...Atemporary form that the real Dragon God uses in order to appear within this dimension.The actual Dragon God was consumed long ago, in the
XJPGiiX: distant past...
Aitrus Colso: Ok, I misunderstood you.
XJPGiiX: Yeah. My diction was rather vauge.
XJPGiiX: typos.
Aitrus Colso: I thought you said that you fought the Dragon God within the TD.  You said that he fought you FROM within the TD
Aitrus Colso: Me not paying attention
XJPGiiX: Well it is not said anywhere that TD derives his power form the DRagon God.
XJPGiiX: Thus Schala has some effect on Lavos to increase his power
XJPGiiX: From temporal disruptions to full-fledged capacity to edit time
Aitrus Colso: I doubt she gave him that much power.  There's no reasoning behind that, but it's just a gut feeling.
GrayLensman01: Schala gave Lavos an actual consciousness.  A vessel for its hate and rage and an instument for its revenge on those who destroyed it.
XJPGiiX: Oh, yes.
Aitrus Colso: She gave him some power, most definitely.  And I'll even accept that conciousness thing.  However, I still doubt how much power she actually gave him.
XJPGiiX: Well, true.
XJPGiiX: Magus is more powerful than Schala magically.
XJPGiiX: However, that may not be a factor, as Lavos gave humans innate magic.
XJPGiiX: He's the giver, not one to be empowered by his own gift
GrayLensman01: Does magic even have anything to do with it?  No human can comare to Lavos' magical power.
Aitrus Colso: Exactly.
Aitrus Colso: Schala had to contribute something else.  Emotion, most likely.
Aitrus Colso: Conciousness, possibly, but less likely.  Magic, though, like Gray said, Lavos wouldn't need it.
XJPGiiX: Schala, however, was a victim in that her mind was corrupted by feelings of hatred after being merged.
XJPGiiX: Foreign feelings.
XJPGiiX: Filled with the hatredand sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence.
XJPGiiX: (script)
Aitrus Colso: She became like a receptacle for the primitive emotions that Lavos had.
XJPGiiX: Yes...
GrayLensman01: Primitive but powerful.
Aitrus Colso: Definitely
XJPGiiX: How shall we make sense of all this? Once it is on the Compendium, shall we dissect it into specific issues? Just an intermission.
GrayLensman01: We have discussed a broad range of topics.
Aitrus Colso: Dissection is the best option, I'd think
Aitrus Colso: After all, we've ranged from temporal mechanics to biology down to metaphysics here.

Btw, we're all on AIM, so if you'd like to catch us there give us a ring.

[rotorkid]

In response to the issue concerning the splitting of dimensions, here's my answer. The game says that everytime you make a decision, it creates another dimension where you made the opposite decision. Likewise, there is a dimension where Serge lives and one where he doesn't. I think that the reason they are so close is because Serge is an important person in the timeline of the world, and the fact that he is missing in the one world draws him into it.

[ZeaLitY]

I don't believe the game says that per se; rather, a man at Chronopolis says that infinite dimensions are possible, but they are only stabilized from the point of observers within them. In this way, there might be thousands of different dimensions in which Serge lived or died, each with a small, changed detail. This would negate the entire meaning of the Chrono Cross, which is meant to unify the split dimensions -- which are exactly that; split, and not possibilities. The fact that an Angelus Errare point exists between the worlds signifies this. Another and Home split from one identifiable thread and are connected at the point of the split.

[rotorkid]

Ignore what I said earlier. I forgot about project Kid, and how she is the reason that Serge is pulled to that particular dimension.

[ZeaLitY]

Interesting; Lynx claims the Time Egg actually holds a condensed universe inside.

[chronotriggerfreak]

Condensed universe? Hmm...

I believe I have a possible theory (if I can organize it into something that makes sense in writing) as to what he means by that, but I would need to be informed as to what Time Egg(s) is/are used in CC and what it/they do(es).