Dead Sea Discussion

[ZeaLitY]

Sorry for persisting with this topic, and please excuse my vague memory. I'm still fuzzy about certain phenomena surrounding the Dead Sea; I also believe a few good axioms & corollaries can be derived from these events with proper discussion. However, on my mind right now, is:

Why did killing Lavos, simply another change in time by Crono, cause the ruined future beyond the apocalypse to leave so forcibly to the Tesseract?

I wonder because in a way this is indiscernible from any other actions. One may reason that the sheer length or gravity of things rewritten (the future beyond the apocalypse) was enough to cause problems, but even minor events such as those in the sidequests can cause ripples that affect greater lengths of time.

Other questions might include:

Why did the Tower of Geddon form?
Where exactly is Leene's square in the Dead Sea, considering one must use a warp to enter it?
At what period is time frozen at? 2400 A.D.?
Why does the Lithosphere Investigation Report dating 2300 A.D. exist?

I believe we've answered whether the destruction seen is wrought by Lavos or the Time Devourer, settling for the general prophecy that Serge would cause it somehow.

Resource: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/24058.html "Game Script" (We'll use this until our own can be constructed)

Again, please excuse my desire to have a fresh start on the subject. Old topics seem somewhat mired in misconceptions and scattered.

[ZeaLitY]

Perhaps we can begin building a knowledge base by examining quotes.

Harle: It appears that the dimension itself is more unstable here than elsewhere. It's
a time and space within a structure completely different from anywhere else. Luckily,
the distortion to leave this place is still here. That's good news for us.

Firstly, can we infer that Leene square is the epicenter of this great destruction since it is the end of the path, and because Miguel calls it Time Crash Ground Zero? Why would this be a result of the Time Crash, if the ruined future is simply to be brought about by Serge?

Perhaps this is how Serge brings about destruction -- since he has not yet fulfilled his destiny of defeating the Time Devourer, the Time Crash is still necessary to set things in motion and thus remains a fact in the timeline. However, I'm venturing into strange territory.

I'm also interested in this 'completely different' structure of time and space.

[bubblebobby2000]

Firstly, can we infer that Leene square is the epicenter of this great destruction since it is the end of the path, and because Miguel calls it Time Crash Ground Zero? Why would this be a result of the Time Crash, if the ruined future is simply to be brought about by Serge?

Harle says this before Serge enters the portal into Leene's Square, referring to the Dragoons, "It iz unfortunate, but it appearz zey were held captive here before zey died... It'z too late... Zey are so close, yet so far. No one can help zem..." When you defeat Miguel, he says this, "FATE doesn't want the Frozen Flame to awaken in this place at this time... It would choose to destroy the Flame along with the whole Dead Sea, than to allow its enemies to take hold of the Flame..."

There is no doubt that where Leene's Square is in the Dead Sea, is probably where Serge could find Home's copy of the Frozen Flame. Since we know well that the Frozen Flame is the source of the power that caused the Time Crash, that must be, in terms of geographical coordinates, where the Time Crash erupted, or will erupt in 2400AD.

So the Time Crash causes Sea of Eden+Chronopolis to be pulled back in time, or rather, from what I believe, it causes the Sea of Eden in the past to project a potential into the future. Between 7600BC and 1010AD, the projection of the potential future remained stable and through it one can see the Sea of Eden. Until Serge's survival, an event that could potentially bring about the wrecked future. The result: The Dead Sea in Home world. The reason: either the future became uncertain, or the future became devoured by the Time Devourer, thus causing the freeze in time.

Harle says this before Serge enters the Tower of Geddon: "Zis must be ze center of ze Dead Sea... All zis chaos must have spread out from here."

Notice how Harle refers to the Tower of Geddon as "chaos" not "destruction." Perhaps the use of the correct term is fundamental in describing the nature of the Dead Sea. Even the general visuals in the Dead Sea leads me to think the nearer one got to Home's copy of the Frozen Flame in the Dead Sea, the more unstable it became, that's why the Tower of Geddon is one great conglomerated mess of stuff. The epicenter of the great mess we see in the Dead Sea should not be epicenter of destruction, but the epicenter of distortion, as a indirect result of the Time Crash.

[warmgun]

I got a wacky idea.  One of the themes of the game is how all this is a result of Crono's intereference with time and whatnot.  Well, technically, Leene's sqaure is where it all started, right?  That is where Chrono first bumps into Marle.  Don't they say somewhere, either in CT or CC, that this is where their adventure started?  Its interesting to note that Leene Square was chosen from the present, whereas the entire rest of the Dead Sea is from the future.  Furthermore, why would apparitions of Crono, Lucca, and Marle be there?  Maybe they're why that particular scene was chosen?

[ZeaLitY]

Another inquiry; how is FATE able to instate Miguel as defender of the Dead Sea across the dimensions?

What is the dimensional distortion?

[ZeaLitY]

Dead Sea/FATE Discussion on an AIM Chat #1
GrayLensman, Aitrus, ZeaLitY, Ybrik Metaknight, Radical Dreamer, JustinS1985, Drumguy074

I. Is Serge targeted by FATE due to his obstruction to the Flame or suggested apocalypse caused somehow in the future by his existence?

A. Arbiter Dilemma

'FATE desires to have Serge killed for the express purpose of regaining access to the Frozen Flame.'

Ten years ago, it was Lynx who tried to kill you at this beach. After Prometheus broke the link between FATE and the Flame, FATE tried to eliminate any obstacle that stood in its way!

This possibly alludes to Serge as being such an obstacle, and also explains why he was not targeted earlier by FATE; only after he was designated Arbiter was death sought.

i. Would his death allow access once more to the Flame or prove it harder to be obtained, considering the Arbiter is dead and unable to produce vital signs?

a. Allow access once more

If Arbiter status is granted at death, FATE's motive for killing Serge would be simple and understandable, and also have the effect of allowing Chronopolis to continue existing normally until the future. This would have the interesting effect of allowing Belthasar to restart the Time Crash, and give Serge a second chance at things; perhaps this was a backup to Project Kid. Though the Flame being denied to FATE might be a prerequisite for Serge to complete his mission, if he should die, regaining control of the Flame would serve as a backup plan.

b. Deny access altogether

In light of a, this seems somewhat unlikely, though it is suggested heavily that one must be alive to access the Flame-

Scanner: Analyzing... Please stand by. .........Analysis complete. Fingerprints, retina, and C class DNA all clear. Data discrepancy due to aging within permissible range. 96% confirmation that this individual is the last registered arbiter. Access granted. Welcome back, Chrono Trigger.

B. Future Destruction Prevention

'FATE desires to have Serge killed in order to prevent the situation seen in the Dead Sea.'

This is negated somewhat by the apparent lack of interest in Serge in his early life. Support for this theory is limited because of this.

[ZeaLitY]

Dead Sea/FATE Discussion on an AIM Chat, #2
Aitrus, GrayLensman, Fxeni, ZeaLitY

What caused the Tower of Geddon to form?

The Dead Sea is a conglomeration of the averted timeline that is destroyed by Lavos, condensed into the Dead Sea, and possibly other disjointed fragments of spacetime; it is also believed to be a sort of shell of Chronopolis, destroyed during the split into Another and Home. This is supported by '2400 A.D.' appearing on the tower.

Problems arise in Nadia's Bell. Though Masato Kato remarked the timeline present is indeed the one in which Lavos was not destroyed, Nadia's Bell, a direct product of the death of Lavos, is present. One must rely on the 'disjointed time fragments' addition to account for its presence. Also in question is the Lithosphere Investigation Report, done in 2300 A.D. and unsuitable for either timeline.

Radical Dreamer proposes that the bell was to be built anyway after the fair, and that it is foolish to have a bell built in one day; Taban's bell in 600 A.D. required a long amount of time to complete.

Why does Serge's living in Home World mirror destruction in the future?

Most theories on this subject rely on muddled quantum physics with little root in the series, or using the butterfly effect of chaos, perhaps citing that Serge's waves in time manifest themselves to ruin the events of Chrono Trigger.

Armageddon-Branch Theory
GrayLensman

Crono could not have defeated Lavos in Home World. The event which spares Serge's life also creates a plurality of dimensions from 1010 onwards. Since there is only one Crono in 1000 AD to defeat Lavos, only the future in Another World is saved.

Further Explanation

In the original timeline (Another World) Serge dies in 1010 AD, but Kid changes the past, somehow creating an alternate dimension in which Serge lives (Home World). Another World always existed; it is the original dimension, but Home World only extends from 1010 AD onwards. In 1000 AD, Crono exists in Another World.  If he travels through time, he can only reach a destination within his own dimension.  When Crono defeats Lavos in 1999 AD, or any other time, the battle takes place in Another World. In 1000 AD, there is only one version of Crono.  If Crono lived past 1010 AD, there would be a version for each dimension, but that version did not travel through time to defeat Lavos. In Home World, no savior appears in 1999 AD to save the future. Serge caused the destruction of the world by spawning an alternate dimension which is beyond 1000 AD Crono's notice or reach. He does not undo any of Crono's actions.  In Another World, the future is secure, at least until the Time Devourer arrives. There cannot be multiple Crono groups because there is only one dimension in 1000 AD!

Commentary

ZeaLitY: This theory is seemingly flawless. Crono predates the dimensional split, and his actions are thus consolidated in the natural timeline which he created -- Keystone 2. The Home Dimension is labeled an anomaly, and since it is not the natural flow of time as Another Dimension is, its future is not shielded from the events of Crono, which were carried out privately in his own timeline. Another Timeline was essentially part of Keystone T-2 until 1020 A.D.; that is when Kid went back and saved Serge to create the Home Timeline. Thus Another Timeline is the true strain, and thus is protected from complications and changes.

Other theories shall be reviewed by the Compendium hereafter; in a preliminary check, I found that most were strikingly flawed in some degree or entailed vast complications.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Nadia's Bell is installed in 1000A.D., long before the death of Lavos. How is it's presence dependant on Lavos being defeated?

[ZeaLitY]

It is installed after Lavos is defeated, in the best endings. Leene's Bell remains in place, observed by the various comments in 1000 A.D. about it.

[Fxeni]

The only reason Nadia's Bell has been installed is because the king heard about Crono's party's achievements (destroying Lavos).

[ZeaLitY]

What point in time is the Dead Sea frozen at?

Dead Sea/FATE Discussion on an AIM Chat, #3
Aitrus, Drumguy074, Fxeni, Radical Dreamer, Ybrik Metaknight, ZeaLitY

Why does Lithosphere Investigation Report #27 exist?

Chaos-Result Theory

This theory relies on a subjective interpretation of Masato Kato's remark that the Dead Sea reflects that the Home World shall probably lead to destruction, and somewhat challenges his earlier statement that the Dead Sea is the exact timeline that Crono averted in Chrono Trigger. It purports that the Dead Sea is a conglomeration of chaos, including fragmented dimensions and timelines, that center around destruction as caused by Lavos, and that these various discontinued space-time splinters are represented throughout the Dead Sea. It asserts that the Lithosphere Investigation Report is simply a fragment from a timeline in which Lavos erupted in 2300 A.D., rather than 1999 A.D.

Commentary

Ybrik Metaknight: In all honesty, I think we should avoid the Chaos theory, because it's too tough to reconcile with everything else in the series.

Fundamental-Access Theory

This theory requires that the Dead Sea be frozen in 2300 A.D. It holds that the Report is simply reporting the date it is accessed when it displays '2300 A.D.' as a header.

Fundamental Access Theory: Belthasar Clause

This clause holds that, in tune with Masato Kato's comment that the Dead Sea is a restoration of the Lavos timeline, the report may have been made by Belthasar in 2300 A.D.

Might it be the same report that is accessed by Crono in the Arris Dome?
Fxeni

It may be, considering it visually displays destruction raining from the heavens by the power of Lavos. Refution comes in the two arguments that the differences between the two reports nullify this notion and that the Arris Dome seemingly only contained the report; however, the Arris Dome did support towers, and it may be buried under the frozen waves that the tower containing the report lies in. The Chaos theory may also suggest that the report is another dimension's form of the Visual Record.
Is Chronopolis literally temporally connected to the future?

The Compendium has given its approval that it certainly is connected, on the terms of this summary.

That Chronopolis is connected to the future due to the nature of the Time Crash, Lavos' involvement, and phenomena surrounding its traveling through time; that Chronopolis wishes to preserve history due to this retaining connection with the future, and that the Dead Sea forms because the future is altered in a way that Chronopolis does not exist.

One may hold that this conflicts with warmgun's generally consistent axiom, 'How Changing the Past Affects Those Time Travelers whose Past Now No Longer Exists,' but Chronopolis' trip through time certainly qualifies as an exception in the regards mentioned in the aforementioned summary.

[ZeaLitY]

Dead Sea/FATE Discussion on an AIM Chat, #3
Aitrus Colso, Cliftor, cronol33t, Drumguy074, EvanescentValor, GrayLensman01, HefferFMHS, NeoDarkhunter, OtherGreenKnight, Tickey4844, xZeaLitYx

Aitrus's Dilemma

Is Nadia's Bell part of the geographic region of the Dead Sea, or merely a connected area of space-time?

Commentary

Aitrus: I'll concede that it is definitely to be considered a portion of the Dead Sea in the collective sense, but as for Geography, it should be considered a seperate location in a different timestream.

YbrikMetaknight: You see, with a time/space (I am purposely avoiding the word "place") like Dead Sea, I'm not really sure that the term "geography" really applies in the conventional sense.

ZeaLitY: Though the time stream resides there, I don't believe the bell can be assigned a geographical location.

Square-Shrine Theory
OathoftheTimeTraveler

Something I just considered... perhaps the area was built as a sort of park... memorial or otherwise. It would explain the general lack of technology (minus the Enerton), or commerce.

Commentary

ZeaLitY: The Dead Sea square does look more compact than Trigger's.

Aitrus: I'd bet on the park idea, as it seems like a memorial set up about 1999, considering the Enertron.

At what time is the Dead Sea frozen at?

Lithosphere Investigation Report #27 may suggest 2300 A.D., as it displays that date. However, the sunset at Nadia's Bell suggests otherwise; cloud cover was continuously present in 2300 A.D., suggesting either it is frozen fresh after the apocalypse or long after the dust has settled back to the ground. The 2400 A.D. on the outside of the Tower of Gheddon also supports this theory.

It is also plausable, as suggested by CHAOS, that though the Dead Sea reflects the ruined timeline, it is not frozen at any one point.

Armageddon-Branch Theory - A Demonstration
GrayLensman, Ybrik Metaknight

GL: Home World begins in 1010 AD.  No one from 1000 AD can time travel to it. In Another World, in 1000 AD, Crono and Mare enter the transporter.... ...  But Home World did not exist at that time.  There is no Home World version of Crono and Marle in 1000 AD, because it doesn't exist yet.

YM: So where does the rest of Home World come from?

GL: Another World.

YM: Exactly. So it stands to reason that everything that happened in Another World up to that point is in the history of Home World, does it not?

GL: If someone in Home World read in a history book, they would see evidence that Crono traveled through time.  ... ... At the instant of Serge's survival in 1010 AD, Home was fissioned off from Anther.  It shares the same past as Another. But Home and Another are separate dimensions.  There is no way to travel from 1000 AD Another to 1999 AD Home without traveling across the dimensional veil. I find it nice, because it doesn't undo Crono's accomplishments.  It only creates a new world were armageddon still occurs.

[ZeaLitY]

Just a note. Questions left to be addressed:

-Wrapping up the definition of the dimensional distrotion
-Solidifying the already present evidence that the Frozen Flame was present
-Explaining why the dimensional distortion allows Serge to regain his missing piece abilities
-Wrapping up ghost discussion