ENTITY
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ZeaLitY:
I made a crappy little poll. Please, PLEASE read our analysis first, and
consider the options. Don't vote simply on what you've held to be the entity
since CT's release years ago, but what the most logical choice is.
http://www.angelfire.com/ok2/mercenary7/CTRDCCCB.html This is the first detachment of the CT/RD/CC/CB thread, operating under the new
system. By using this, we hope that newcomers will participate in discussion.
The question here is obvious; what is the entity?
We know that it may be responsible for the gates, and that it's 'reliving' its
past.
Forest Dialogue:
ROBO: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be
responsible for the gates.
MARLE: What do you mean?
ROBO: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all
this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as
if some entity wanted to relive its past.
AYLA: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
FROG: 'Tis true that mortals relive their most profound memories before death
claimeth them. Yet those memories most often are sad ones.
ROBO: Thinking things like, "If only I had done this," or, "I shouldn't have
done that..." triggers unpleasant, old memories.
MARLE: Will that happen when our time comes?
LUCCA: Probably...who knows?
*lucca/marle dribble*
FROG: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity...
MAGUS:...so who is this Entity?
ROBO: It is unknown, whose memories these are. It may be something beyond our
comprehension. Our journey may come to an end when we finally discover the
identity of the Entity.
Ending Dialogue:
"I get the feeling that the entity is finally at rest."
(With Lavos' defeat)
I don't want to ruin any initial conceptions by posting things that favor my
view, so I'll leave this open for awhile, and then present my argument. Since
this isn't concrete according to Square, we may ultimately host a poll
featuring the best explanations.
Good luck, everyone, and welcome CT/RD/CC/CB thread regulars and newcomers.
_________________
ExcelHyatt:
Entity- A menacing mockery set up by Lavos. That fear of death and the
regretting of somebody's past action.
_________________
suzumebachi:
FATE.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
Quite some time ago, in the original thread (or the Master Thread, if you
will), someone, I can't remember who, proposed that the Entity could be
the spirit of the planet, similar to our old notion of Gaia or Mother Earth.
I believe this to be more or less the truth, although it certainly does
raise the question of whether the spirit of the Planet identified itself
with the humans and their "alien" evolution, as hinted by CT, or with the
dragons and their "natural" evolution, as hinted by CC.
_________________
Radical_Dreamer:
The Entity could be the Merged Dragon God/Dragon gods... Using it's power
to influence the CT cast to destroy it's ultimate enemy, Lavos. In CC, they
proved that they weren't above ploys like that.
_________________
Rick:
LAVOS? HES LIKE A BIG GIANT GOOMBA WHO SPROUTS FROM THE GROUND AND SHOOTS
SPORESAND POLLEN AND LOTS OF CRUD INTO THE AIR< CAUSING LOTS OF DEAD
PEOPLE!!1
ROBO< HES A ROBOT AND BECAME A FARMER< LIKE FARMER BROWN< I DONO IF FARMER
BROWN LOOKED LIKE A ROBOT BUT ROBO SURE DUZ!!1 NEWAY< ROBO LIKE TURNED
SUMTING DED INTO SUMTING ALIVE!11 HE PLANTED PLANTS AND TREEZ AND CRUD> SO
MEBBE HE IZ THE TRU BADGUY!1 CUZ HE PLANTED LAVOS WHEN LAVOS WUTZ A YOUNG POD
AND WATARED HIM EVERYDAY SO THAT LAVOS CUD GROW BIG AND STRONG>
SO LIKE ROBO IZ A BAD GUY AND CRUD< BUT NO WAIT< HES A ROBOT AND ROBOTS
AREN”T BAD RITE< CUZ LIKE HE DIDN”T PROGRAMME HIMSELF< LUCCA DID!1 SO THRU
THE PROCESS OF ELIMINATION AND CRUD< THAT MAKES LUCCA EV0L!
HOLY CRAP< BUT SHES WIF THE GOOD GUYS THRUOUT THE GAME< RITE< SO MEBBE SHES
NOT EV0L< IDONO>
NOW I DONO WUT THE WERD “ENTITIE” MEANS< BUT IF I BREAK IT DOWN AND USE
METACONITION< I DONO WUT THAT WERD MEANS BUT MY TEACHER SAID THAT ONE DAY IN
CLASS< AND PRETEND THAT I AM A POLICEMAN< I CAN CUM UP WIF SUM CONCLUSIONS
ABOUT THIS ENTITIE< WUTEVER THAT MEANS
ENT- K< SO LIKE ENT< THAT’S LIKE CLOSE 2 ANT SO IT MUST BE SMALL AND BE ABLE
2 LIFT 10 TIEMS ITS ONLY BODY WEIGHT!1 SO THIS ENTITIE MUST BE VARY STRONG
IN SUMWAY RITE?
-TIT- REPRESENTS A PART OF THE HUMAN ANATOMIE< ESPECIALLY GIRL ANATOMIE< SUM
GIRLS HAVE LARGE TITS< WHICH I LIKE VARY MUCH
-TIE - UM< TIE AS IN TIE THINGS 2GETHER< U NO? SO IF WE CAN LIKE TIE ONE
THING 2 ANOTHAR THING< THEY WILL BE ONE THING< RITE??
SO LIKE< NOW THAT I BROKE DOWN THE WERD ENTITIE< WHICH I HAVE NO IDEAR WUT
IT MEANS< ITS TIEM 2 PUT ON MY POLICEMAN UNIFORM>>
OK< IMMA POLICEMAN
SO LIKE I ENFORCE THE LAW< RITE? AND LIKE< THIS ENTITIE BREAKS THE LAW CUZ
IT MAKES TIME TRAVEL GATES< RIGHT? AND THAT’S BREAKING SUM SORT OF LAWS<
LIKE UM METAPHYSICAL LAWS AND CRUD< I DONO< BUT LIKE THE GATES ARE AGAINST
THE LAW>
NOW BECUZ I HAVE 3 CLUES 2 WERK WITH< I CAN FIGURE OUT WHO THE ENTITIE IZ!!1
SO LIKE SUM1 SMALL THAT I NO WOULD BE MY FRAND JONNY< BUT JONNY IZN”T IN THE
GAYME SO THAT REMOVES HIM FROM THE LIST OF SUSPECTS< HOWEVAR< WUT ABOUT
LUCCA!1 SHES SMALL RITE? WELL MEBBE NOT BUT LETS PRETEND SHE IZ< SHE
DEFINATLEY IZN”T FAT SO LIKE SHE CAN”T BE BIG AND CRUD>
OK< MOVING ON< TIT< WELL LUCCA HAS TITS!!1
OK NEXT WE HAVE TIE< SO LIKE WE ALRADY ESTABLISHED THAT LUCCA IZ EV0L< RITE?
AND LIKE U REMEMBAR WHEN I SED THERE R TIES AND CRUD< WELL WUT IF WE TIE
SUMTING GEWD 2 SUMTING BAD?? WE”D GET LUCCA IN THIS CASE< RITE? OF COURSE!
SO 2 SOLVE THIS MYSTERIE< LUCCA IZ THE ENTITIE !!!11
_________________
Protricity:
AWESUM!!
THREAD IZ OVAR> GO HOME POEPL!1.
_________________
Johnny Carwash:
OMG!!1 I SAW SOME PICZ ONILNE OF LUCCA AND RODO AND YES SHE HAS TEH TITS!!11
ROBO IS TEH P1MP GOD,HE HAS A THE PREHENSILE SLONG.
_________________
JustinS1985:
I always thought the entity was one of two things, either the spirit of the
planet guiding them along, or Gaspar himself, I mean, Gaspar sits at the end
of time watching everything for millenia, he'd know exactly where your party
needs to go in time, and often tells you what needs to be done there, also he
is the guru of time and his experience with lavos and spekkio's magic probably
would allow him to manipulate the gates.
_________________
Brave Fencer Kirby"
Ybrik Metaknight wrote:
"Quite some time ago, in the original thread (or the Master Thread, if you
will), someone, I can't remember who, proposed that the Entity could be the
spirit of the planet, similar to our old notion of Gaia or Mother Earth."
That's always what I thought, though I suppose it's possible that Gaspar is
manipulating things behind the scenes. Those are the only two real possibilies
that I can see... I mean, who else would have the knowledge and the power to
make the gates work, and know when/where to use the effectively? I'd suggest
Schala, but from what we see in the game, she doesn't really seem able to do
such a thing, with the Queen basicly controlling her.
_________________
JustinS1985:
Schala would kind of make sense since her pendant opens the first gate anyway,
but I don't think she could do what with bein stuck in zeal and then the time
devourer, plus she doesn't recognize chrono and co. when she first meets them.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
GrandMaster (+1k)
OK, so what we have are the following theories...
1. The Entity is the Planet, or Mother Earth, or something like that (perhaps
God) This seems to be the most popular theory, and probably makes the most
sense. I believe this one is correct.
2. The Entity is Gaspar, controlling everything from the End of Time
This one also makes a lot of sense, and could very well be it.
3. The Entity is Lavos
...Probably not, because the gate in Leene Square still functions after Lavos
is destroyed, at least for a time (although that may make no difference for
any time period except A.D. 2300 if you believe as I do that Lavos was only
really defeated in A.D. 1999).
Also, Robo and the rest of the party theorize that Lavos may not be
responsible
for the gates. And besides, why would Lavos lead the party to his own demise?
While it's possible that Lavos may have accidentally created the gates, it
still does not explain the apparent other functions of the Entity.
Conclusion: Possible, but unlikely.
4. The Entity is Fate
...Again, probably not. The Entity seemed to exist prior to the defeat of
Lavos, whereas FATE did not.
5. The Entity is the merged Dragon Gods
Another possibility. Definitely worth considering, although there may be the
same problem as with FATE: Dinopolis was brought into this dimension following
the Time Crash, which happened only in the future where Lavos had been
defeated.
In other words, probably not, but shouldn't be dismissed entirely.
6. The Entity is Schala
Again, probably not, since Schala was always being controlled by something,
either Zeal or Lavos/Time Devourer.
7. The Entity is Lucca
*scoff* I really hope this "Rick" was attempting a humorous post (which he
almost came close to nearly succeeding at doing), otherwise he really needs to
find some help. I'm not even going to dignify that with an analysis.
So should we make a poll about this?
_________________
RabidTurtle:
The Schala in 12000 BC is NOT the Entity, however, the Schala in the
TimeDevourer state IS. She's in a point where she transcends time.
(All references to "Schala" beyond this point are towards the Schala trapped
within TimeDevourer, unless stated otherwise)
She's locked up, so she used the gates to influence Crono and the others to
save the future, then influenced Serge to free her. She created Gates through
the Dreamstone of the pendants, and her connection through Lavos. Her existence
outside of time, as well as her fusion with Lavos and her own natural
abilities, allow her control of space/time. As an example, she was able to
change the course of Serge's father's boat toward the Sea of Eden to
Chronopolis, where, otherwise, they would have gone to Marbule and Serge would
have died. She also reveals infant Kid to Lucca at the end of the PSX remake of
CT, and Lucca was the one who wanted to most about the entity. Rather fitting.
Further evidence:
- Lucca says the Entity was at rest. This is relative. She was at rest with
Crono's party, because they had done their job of saving the future from Lavos
(a future which Schala regretted and wanted reversed...see below). However, she
was not at rest with Serge, because she still needed him to free her. She
closed the Gates because Crono's job was done.
- "ROBO: Thinking things like, "If only I had done this," or, "I shouldn't have
done that..." triggers unpleasant, old memories."
Schala felt guilty for allowing Lavos to destroy Zeal in 12000 BC and
corrupting her mother (refer to the dialogue of Kid just prior to the end of
Radical Dreamers). After all, the 12000 BC Schala did awaken him with the
Mammon Machine, under the direction of her mother. Also, she allowed him to
continue to live underground and destroy the world in 2300 AD. That's a serious
regret (Play Radical Dreamers...it is very enlightening as to what happened to
Schala. it's an all-text game, but it only took me about two hours to beat,
WITHOUT a guide. Pretty easy, I don't even think it's possible to die).
- "ROBO: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not
be responsible for the gates.
MARLE: What do you mean?
ROBO: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this.
The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some
entity wanted to relive its past.
AYLA: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
FROG: 'Tis true that mortals relive their most profound memories before death
claimeth them. Yet those memories most often are sad ones."
While Schala was trapped beyond time, she could view all time streams and
dimensions, like the End of Time. Even during the battle with TimeDevourer, you
could see little visions of different places and times in the background. Schala
guided Crono's party and established gates with that knowledge.
_________________
Aeolius:
RabidTurtle wrote:
"he Schala in 12000 BC is NOT the Entity, however, the Schala in the
TimeDevourer state IS. She's in a point where she transcends time.
(All references to "Schala" beyond this point are towards the Schala trapped
within TimeDevourer, unless stated otherwise)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She's locked up, so she used the gates to influence Crono and the others to
savethe future, then influenced Serge to free her. She created Gates through
the Dreamstone of the pendants, and her connection through Lavos. Her existence
outside of time, as well as her fusion with Lavos and her own natural
abilities, allow her control of space/time. As an example, she was able to
change the course of Serge's father's boat toward the Sea of Eden to
Chronopolis, where, otherwise, they would have gone to Marbule and Serge would
have died. She also reveals infant Kid to Lucca at the end of the PSX remake of
CT, and Lucca was the one who wanted to most about the entity. Rather fitting.
Further evidence:
- Lucca says the Entity was at rest. This is relative. She was at rest with
Crono's party, because they had done their job of saving the future from Lavos
(a future which Schala regretted and wanted reversed...see below). However, she
was not at rest with Serge, because she still needed him to free her. She
closed the Gates because Crono's job was done.
- "ROBO: Thinking things like, "If only I had done this," or, "I shouldn't have
done that..." triggers unpleasant, old memories."
Schala felt guilty for allowing Lavos to destroy Zeal in 12000 BC and
corrupting her mother (refer to the dialogue of Kid just prior to the end of
Radical Dreamers). After all, the 12000 BC Schala did awaken him with the
Mammon Machine, under the direction of her mother. Also, she allowed him to
continue to live underground and destroy the world in 2300 AD. That's a serious
regret (Play Radical Dreamers...it is very enlightening as to what happened to
Schala. it's an all-text game, but it only took me about two hours to beat,
WITHOUT a guide. Pretty easy, I don't even think it's possible to die).
- "ROBO: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not
be responsible for the gates.
MARLE: What do you mean?
ROBO: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all
this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as
if some entity wanted to relive its past.
AYLA: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
FROG: 'Tis true that mortals relive their most profound memories before death
claimeth them. Yet those memories most often are sad ones."
While Schala was trapped beyond time, she could view all time streams and
dimensions, like the End of Time. Even during the battle with TimeDevourer, you
could see little visions of different places and times in the background.
Schala guided Crono's party and established gates with that knowledge."
Sold.
By the way, I get the Chrono Trigger/Radical Dreamers/Chrono Cross bit... but
what's CB?
_________________
SonnyD64:
Aeolius wrote:
"sold.
By the way, I get the Chrono Trigger/Radical Dreamers/Chrono Cross bit... but
what's CB?"
CB is Chrono Break, the expected next game in the Chrono series.
Now I have a question, slightly offtopic, but intended for those who have
played the remake and gotten the extra scenes awarded for getting the Dream
Team ending. Has it ever been proven exactly who steals the Masamune, in the
cutscene with the burning village?
________________
RabidTurtle:
Sorry, can't help you...I've only seen screenshots of the anime scenes in the
remake. =/
_________________
SonnyD64:
Well, I can do a quick recap for you, as it's not a long scene.
It beings with the text "1005 A.D.: The Fall of Guardia..." (not positive about
the date, but pretty sure). In that scene, it shows two knights dueling and a
burning flag, presumably Guardia's. One knight is killed, then it switches to a
burning village with the text "...and the dissapearance of the Masamune."
There's the Masamune sticking out of the ground as well, where it is picked up
by a shadowed figure. Somehow, I doubt this figure was Lynx, and if I remember
correctly, it didn't even look like him in the first place. It makes me wonder
if there are two "Entities", one good, one evil. Perhaps the evil one is
responsible for the Masamune's corruption.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
I can't make any assumptions or theories until I see it for myself (that'd just
be irresponsible ) ...maybe its on Kazaa?
_________________
suzumebachi:
i've never played the remake so i have no idea what you're talking about.
maybe it's miguel or dario or radius or something.
it's been a long time since i played chrono cross and i forget where you find
the masamune (ie mastermune)
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
RabidTurtle's explanation for Schala is one of the most comprehensive Entity
explanations we have, but does still not necessarily close the issue. My
problem with it is that there's a distinct possibility that Schala may not have
merged with Lavos in the original timeline (i.e. before Lavos was defeated and
without Crono & Co.'s intervention); Chrono Cross even suggests this may be the
case (I believe Crono or Marle or Lucca says something to that effect at Opassa
Beach before the final battle). However, that could be completely wrong, since
there is no proof that the outcome of the Ocean Palace disaster was any
different without the party than with it.
Also, one of the three CT children on Opassa Beach says that after creating
Kid, Schala's soul was fully corrupted by Lavos. After that, she wouldn't have
had any reason to help Crono's party defeat Lavos, since she was sort of a part
of Lavos and therefore this would create a huge conflict of interest.
I think we probably need to do a poll on it, with the following choices:
1. The Entity=The Planet/Mother Earth/God
2. The Entity=Gaspar
3. The Entity=Schala (Time Devourer version)
4. The Entity=Lavos
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Ybrik Metaknight wrote:
"RabidTurtle's explanation for Schala is one of the most comprehensive Entity
explanations we have, but does still not necessarily close the issue. My
problem with it is that there's a distinct possibility that Schala may not have
merged with Lavos in the original timeline (i.e. before Lavos was defeated and
without Crono & Co.'s intervention); Chrono Cross even suggests this may be the
case (I believe Crono or Marle or Lucca says something to that effect at Opassa
Beach before the final battle). However, that could be completely wrong, since
there is no proof that the outcome of the Ocean Palace disaster was any
different without the party than with it.
Also, one of the three CT children on Opassa Beach says that after creating
Kid, Schala's soul was fully corrupted by Lavos. After that, she wouldn't have
had any reason to help Crono's party defeat Lavos, since she was sort of a part
of Lavos and therefore this would create a huge conflict of interest."
Schala couldn't have been completely corrupted, because it was said somewhere
(I wish I knew where) that Schala heard Serge's crying (after being bitten by
the Panther Demon), and she conjured the storm that shut down F.A.T.E. and
caused Serge's father's boat to go to Chronopolis, to the Frozen Flame, which
healed Serge (I hope you enjoy the run-on as much as I enjoyed typing it ).
Also, remember the beginning of the game? The intro with the book? It asked
something to the effect: "When did the cogs of fate begin to turn?"
Schala restates the question, (verbatim, as I remember) and answers it in her
little monologue at the end. She said that the beginning of all of this (all of
this, as in, the errors in the space-time continuum and all of her problems)
was not 65,000,000 BC, when Lavos crashed onto the planet, nor 1000 AD, when
Crono was sucked into the Gate, and not 1999 AD, when the world was destroyed,
but 12000 BC, in the original time-stream, when Schala was sucked into the
original Gate, created by Schala's and Lavos' power (I assume also from the
amplifying Mammon Machine) and merged with Lavos and became the TimeDevourer
(she does not say that it is the original gate, but since it is the undisturbed
timeline, it is implied). I remember the ending distinctly because of it's
revelations, but I don't remember the beach scene too well. I think I'll have
to replay CC, and, very much unlike re-running through CT, it'll be quite a
chore (Let's face it, Cross is just nowhere near as fun as Trigger, but that's
a discussion for another thread, another time)
_________________
Brave Fencer Kirby:
RabidTurtle wrote:
"Schala couldn't have been completely corrupted, because it was said somewhere
(I wish I knew where) that Schala heard Serge's crying (after being bitten by
the Panther Demon), and she conjured the storm that shut down F.A.T.E. and
caused Serge's father's boat to go to Chronopolis, to the Frozen Flame, which
healed Serge (I hope you enjoy the run-on as much as I enjoyed typing it )."
That all happened before she created Kid.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Not true. Kid and Serge were about the same age. Serge was a child (the age was
somewhere between 4-7, so I'll just give 5 as a representative number), so Kid
already existed in Lucca Orphanage (or maybe it was burned down even before she
was 5) for 5 years.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
CT FAQ:
-In an effort to harness power, Queen Zeal uses the Ocean Palace, which causes
a gate that sends Belthasar to 2300 A.D., Melchior to 1000 A.D., Gaspar to the
End of Time, Janus to 600 A.D. Queen Zeal and Schala are presumably killed,
since Lavos does not become a Time Devourer in the original timeline. Also, the
Epoch may have followed Belthasar to 2300 A.D., since Dalton reveals that he
was working on such a vehicle in Zeal.
This is my problem. Lavos did not become a Time Devourer in the original
timeline; the Time Devourer could have existed, but there really is one Lavos
exclusive to Earth (unless time cloning, other farfetched stuff). If the Time
Devourer still came into existence in the original timeline, what is its
purpose, other than to encase Schala?
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Zeal was still destroyed by Lavos' awakening in the original timeline, so it
can be assumed that it merged with Schala, however, it could also be assumed
that she was killed. We just don't know.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
Well, through reasoning, we can conclude that there was only one Lavos who
intended to destroy the world, since it is documented in 2300 A.D. This is the
same Lavos that obliterated Zeal in 12,000 B.C. Thus, it is unchanged. If Lavos
indeed merged to become a Time Devourer, he obviously left a clone or some
other apocalyptic being in his place.
He or she? Ok, its place.
_________________
SonnyD64:
suzumebachi wrote:
"i've never played the remake so i have no idea what you're talking about.
maybe it's miguel or dario or radius or something."
I doubt this, because first of all, none of these people would have the power
(or motive, for that matter) to raze an entire town, especially one where the
Masamune was found (suggesting it's Truce, as it had the closest relations to
Guardia, in my opinion). Darius, as far as I remember, is good until finding
the Masamune. Radius was always good, and Miguel doesn't really have a reason
to get the Masamune. And anyway, this happened in 1005. None of the people you
listed would even be alive then.
ZeaLitY reminded me of theory I had about Lavos, that I'd like to present. It
doesn't have any direct relation to the Entity, but seeing as we're talking
about multiple Lavos', I think it fits.
I think that all Lavos is, is a grown up Lavos Spawn. I'm guessing that after
Lavos infects a planet and drains it of energy, the Lavos Spawn mature, and
shoot into space to find new hosts. Essentially, Lavos is a parasitic virus,
not some space organism that happened to fall on Guardia (I'll just refer to
the world as Guardia, even though it never really had a name).
I'm just hoping this isn't old news that everyone's already discussed, :\
_________________
RabidTurtle:
The Lavos maturation is explained in both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.
Did the figure that razed the town resemble Harle in any way?
_________________
SonnyD64:
It is? =o
I honestly don't remember hearing about it in CT, excluding maybe basic stuff,
but I wouldn't be suprised about CC, as I remember very little from that game.
As for the shadow figure, not at all, unless she wasn't wearing the jester's
hat. It's regardless, though, I doubt it'll end up being someone from CC
because of the age problem I mentioned. In my opinion, it's likely that the
person is someone from CT, whetther he was behind the scenes or not, or that
it's going to be someone in a later game, if they ever try to resolve the whole
Masamune becoming evil plothole.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Actually, the events in CC were in 1020 AD.
The Lavos maturation is discussed briefly by Queen Zeal if you visit the Black
Omen in 2300 AD, after the world is destroyed. Also, depending on who you beat
the game with, I think someone mentions him being a parasite.
In Chrono Cross, when you reach the top of Fort Dragonia for the third time, to
restore Serge's original form, the mural on the wall depicts not only Lavos'
goal as a parasite (infect, mature, destroy, breed, move on), but also how
Lavos altered evolution through his energy eminations.
_________________
SonnyD64:
Well, I knew it was said that he was a parasite, although I was trying to go
more indepth about it, I guess. As for Zeal, true, I'd forgotten about that,
but that seemed to me like a lot of stuff we already knew. However, I never
noticed the mural in Fort Dragonia, I'll have to check that out some time.
As for CC's date, I've heard 1100 AD and 1020 AD, and it's gotten to the point
where I don't remember which is right anymore. Even so, Harle would be a child,
as would many of CC's characters, excluding Radius and the older people, but I
can't think of any with a motive to corrupt the Masamune.
_________________
Brave Fencer Kirby:
RabidTurtle wrote:
"Not true. Kid and Serge were about the same age. Serge was a child (the age
was somewhere between 4-7, so I'll just give 5 as a representative number), so
Kid already existed in Lucca Orphanage (or maybe it was burned down even
before she was 5) for 5 years. "
Yeah, but remember that Schala stuck in the Darkness at the End of Time. So
she's basicly outside the flow of time, and can observe/effect pretty much any
point she wants. She saw Serge getting mauled by the panther demon, and saw him
drown, then sent Kid back to around the point where he was born. THEN she was
completely taken over by Lavos. Did that make any sense?
Oh, and Sonny? It's 1020 AD. Twenty years after Crono and Co's era. I'm not
sure where I heard that, but I'm pretty sure it's right.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
RabidTurtle wrote:
"Not true. Kid and Serge were about the same age. Serge was a child (the age
was somewhere between 4-7, so I'll just give 5 as a representative number), so
Kid already existed in Lucca Orphanage (or maybe it was burned down even before
she was 5) for 5 years."
In A.D. 1020, Serge was 17, Kid was 16. It says so on each character's status
submenu. Look and see for yourself, if you must. And by the way, SonnyD64, CC
took place in 1020, not 1100.
Listen to ZeaLitY, folks. He knows what he's talking about.
It's possible that Schala may have directly influenced some of Serge's past (I
believe that she did in fact hear his cries circa A.D. 1007 with the panther
attack; that was explained by Lucca at the beach, not by Schala herself in the
ending). However, I still believe that it's not really possible that Schala is
the entity to which the CT characters referred, simply because of the timeline
differences.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Oh, and Sonny? It's 1020 AD. Twenty years after Crono and Co's era. I'm not
sure where I heard that, but I'm pretty sure it's right.
You read that on the back of the box for CC, if nowhere else.
_________________
Kiyosuki:
I always thought the Entity was referring to Robo's idea of a higher power,
which is an ironic thing for a machine to speculate on.
_________________
Brave Fencer Kirby:
Ybrik Metaknight wrote:
"Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Oh, and Sonny? It's 1020 AD. Twenty years after Crono and Co's era. I'm not
sure where I heard that, but I'm pretty sure it's right.
You read that on the back of the box for CC, if nowhere else."
*checks* Well, I'll be damned. "Twenty years after the events of 'Chrono
Trigger'", eh? So... This is all happening in 2,320 AD! Har!
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
"Ybrik Metaknight wrote:
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Oh, and Sonny? It's 1020 AD. Twenty years after Crono and Co's era. I'm not
sure where I heard that, but I'm pretty sure it's right.
You read that on the back of the box for CC, if nowhere else.
*checks* Well, I'll be damned. "Twenty years after the events of 'Chrono
Trigger'", eh? So... This is all happening in 2,320 AD! Har!"
Hah.
_________________
ZeaLitY
Kiyosuki wrote:
"I always thought the Entity was referring to Robo's idea of a higher power,
which is an ironic thing for a machine to speculate on. "
This may be considered in the poll as a 'God' or 'null' being; something higher
but still vastly unknown; perhaps nonexistent.
Good job all. We're fleshing definite solutions. I'm going to take a spin
through google and look up some old CT sites. I remember one that strongly
supported Earth = Entity; I'll doubly try to find that one.
_________________
SonnyD64:
Then 1020 AD it is,
I have no clue where I got the idea it was 1100 AD. Anyway, referring to the
Earth being the Entity, I find this a very possible solution. Robo tends to
speak of it a lot, and in his time period, the Entity would have no power and
be near death, if not essentially "dead" already. So it would explain the
Entity's pain (not sure if this is exactly how he worded it, been a month or
two since I last saw the scene). Also, remember when he brings it up. In the
forest scene. If the Earth was the Entity, it would make sense that having just
recreated a forest brings it to mind. He's helped the Entity by adding more
life to it.
EDIT - Just checked the script in the first post, and I stand by what I
originally said. The Entity seems to be regretting choices, and in mental
anguish, at least in my opinion.
_________________
ZeaLitY
Damn; I can't find the sites. Only fanfics are returned in searches.
I believe the entity is the planet, since each period of time accessible by a
gate marked an important time in the planet's history and health.
I can't create polls in the general forum, so I'll make a cheapo one on the
site. Look for the first post for a link.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Those points in time are also critical in the effort to defeat Lavos, which is
a regret of Schala's, for she could not stop him because of her obligations to
her mother, Queen Zeal.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
Damn, I forgot Kiyosuki's. Please vote again.
_________________
Canjo:
I personally think the Entity is going to be something revealed in Chrono
Break, and possibly something we haven't heard of yet. I also think its being
the Planet would be most plausible given what we have, but I don't like it
since it's a cliché idea. (Of course, who cares what I like.) It doesn't sound
cool enough for Chrono, honestly.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
Most of us care; we do personally appreciate every sensible post made (e.g.
posts not made by RIKC).
_________________
ZeaLitY:
I unleashed the poll on the gamefaqs forum, so I'm expecting several more
votes. If there isn't a flood, it may be a good thing, since those forums are
usually degenerate.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
ZeaLitY wrote:
"Most of us care; we do personally appreciate every sensible post made (e.g.
posts not made by RIKC)."
I second that.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Who (what) is RIKC?
_________________
Ingonyama
My vote's for the Planet. Square has always had a thing for the Gaia theory;
look at half the Final Fantasy games out there.
_________________
RabidTurtle:
Chrono Trigger is a departure from the usual Square games, as is Xenogears.
On a related note, Xenogears was made by most of the crew of Chrono Trigger,
and Xenogears had a definite non-planet superbeing (i.e. the Wave Entity). If
anything, game comparison would support the Schala/Time Devourer concept.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
RIKC made the "Lucca has tits, therefore she must be the entity" post...
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
Well, it looks like the "Entity=The Planet" won out. This thread should be
archived soon.
_________________
Ghibli_Comic:
I think the entity is the player, considering your the one who controls everyone.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
UPDATE
I'm very hesitant to do this, but we require arguments for certain positions on
the identity of the Entity. Choose one you believe you can support from here:
http://69.57.132.39/~ramsus/cc/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2 Give it your best shot; you may have to play devil's advocate. I'm currently
rummaging through the Gamefaqs Chrono Trigger board, although it looks to be a
hopeless endeavour (Gamefaqs Chrono Trigger forum is a toilet swirl of personal
insults amidst a few actual gems of debate).
Just post your argument here after you're done constructing it, and I'll add it
to the Entity debate summary page.
END UPDATE; REFER TO PAGE 4 OF THIS HTREI'm very hesitant to do this, but we
require arguments for certain positions on the identity of the Entity. Choose
one you believe you can support from here:
http://69.57.132.39/~ramsus/cc/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2
Give it your best shot; you may have to play devil's advocate. I'm currently
rummaging through the Gamefaqs Chrono Trigger board, although it looks to be a
hopeless endeavour (Gamefaqs Chrono Trigger forum is a toilet swirl of personal
insults amidst a few actual gems of debate).
Just post your argument here after you're done constructing it, and I'll add it
to the Entity debate summary page.
END UPDATE
REFER TO PAGE 4 OF THIS THREAD FOR NEW REPLIES/ADDITIONS
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
c0mbatw0mbat at Chrono Compendium wrote:
"NOTE: This may be fundamentally flawed, since I HAVE NOT played through Chrono
Cross fully. If so, I am sorry for making you waste your time reading this.
I am going to highlight important parts and expand on them.
ROBO: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be
responsible for the gates.
There, why would they make Robo contradict himself by making Lavos responsible
for the gate, and therefore the 'entity.'
ROBO: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all
this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as
if some entity wanted to relive its past.
Well, whos past could that be. Schala as the Time Devourer, that COULD be her
past, as she is fused with Lavos. Lavos came to the earth in 65,000,000 BC,
which is one of the periods that the heroes visit. 12,000 BC is another, the
next time Lavos surfaces. 600 AD Lavos surfaces again. 1000 AD is the starting
point of the game, nothing takes you there, you start there. 1999 AD is the Day
of Lavos, obviously an important day. 2300 AD is part of Lavos's past, as his
offspring, his legacy, continue to live then.
AYLA: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
I don't see why this is so important, it is just common superstition / fact,
when you are going to die your life flashes before your eyes.
FROG: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity...
He does, as Schala gives him sentinence, and Lavos DOES make the gates,
although he does not do it on purpose. When Lavos first lands, a gate is left
in his wake. When Lavos comes in 600 AD he creates a huge gate. Schala, with
the power to create gates, makes them with a purpose, to allow the heroes to
defeat Lavos.
LUCCA: Yeah. I get the feeling that the "Entity" is finally at rest.
Schala is finally at rest, her goal accomplished, Lavos was defeated and the
world was saved. Serge, however, is an attempt of Schala to save herself from
being killed, along with Lavos, in 1999 AD.
Now, I am going to put this all together. Your life flashes before your eyes
when you are about to die. So Chrono Trigger is the 'Entitys' life flashing
before its eyes. You are going through the Entitys past. When is the Entity
about to die? 1999 AD, when Chrono is about to kill it. Therefore it follows
that everything before that is the entitys past. Schala is a part of the
'Entity' when Chrono fights Lavos, correct? Since she can transcend time, she
could see that in 1999 AD she/Lavos would die. Then she set about to save
herself, therefore Chrono Cross. She is separated from Lavos again then, and
Chrono Triggers storyline remains unaltered.
And the parts of this that do not make sense yet, I will clarify. "How would
Chrono be able to go to 2300 AD if that was AFTER Lavos was defeated?" Well,
Schala created the gates with a PURPOSE, and Lavos created them wherever he
went. Schala needed them to go to 2300 AD, perhaps to understand the
seriousness of their quest, perhaps to meet Robo, perhaps both. Since Robo
himself says: Someone wanted us to experience this," that means that the entity
wanted EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE GROUP to experience those events. Maybe it
would not work out otherwise, Robo must have had a part to play that was
fundamental to the heroes getting farther in their quest, such as doing
something no one else could."
OK, here's my counter to all this.
First of all, c0mbatw0mbat does not seem to be truly in favor of one position
exclusively. It becomes very unclear if his position is that the Entity is
Lavos or that the Entity is Schala.
Second of all, the issue of the gates. In A.D. 1000, it may be true that
nothing sends you to that era, as you start there. However, why would there be
three gates there that lead to the other eras? There must have been some reason
to connect to that world, if it was Lavos's doing, especially unintentionally.
In other words, if the gates were created in the other eras because of their
importance to Lavos, why do they lead to 1000? What happened with Lavos then?
In A.D. 600, the gate existed prior to Magus summoning Lavos, and nearly
halfway across the world. Why would Magus summoning Lavos in his castle create
a gate some time previous to said event in a completely different location? The
same goes for 65,000,000 B.C. and 12,000 B.C. Finally, if Lavos was unwittingly
responsible for the gates, how did he create those gates in A.D. 2300? This
problem is the same as with 1000: There was no major event in either time
period involving Lavos to "accidentally" create the gates. And mind you, Lavos
AND Schala cannot simultaneously create the gates; that would just be sloppy
storytelling.
Third, this analysis seems to make no difference between Lavos and the Time
Devourer. Check out this thread for more on this problem.
On a final note, if Schala's freeing herself in CC makes CT's storyline
unaltered, by way making her existance as the Time Devourer null and void, then
Lavos would once more destroy the world in A.D. 1999. Valiant attempt,
c0mbatw0mbat, but please think out your arguments a little bit better.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
I had a hard time discerning what his argument was also. 1000 A.D. clearly
works against Lavos. I think combat confused Schala's ability to create a
pyramid seal over gates with that of creation.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
I've been reading the gamefaqs forum Entity arguments, and I can regretfully
say that I haven't seen a shred of debate worth placing on Entity debate. I am
now beginning to believe that the continuous Entity debate is only a rumor
bought into by Chrono series fans, and continued by these people who continue
to seriously suggest Alfador or Marle's bloodline is the entity.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
ZeaLitY wrote:
"I've been reading the gamefaqs forum Entity arguments, and I can regretfully
say that I haven't seen a shred of debate worth placing on Entity debate. I am
now beginning to believe that the continuous Entity debate is only a rumor
bought into by Chrono series fans, and continued by these people who continue
to seriously suggest Alfador or Marle's bloodline is the entity."
*Slaps forhead* The Entity is Alfador! Why didn't I think of that one before.
Must have been too busy thinking about Lucca's tits. *walks away*
_________________
ZeaLitY:
I don't suppose anyone on OCR has an argument for the Entity besides Ybrik,
ZeaLitY, Yama, RabidTurtle, etc.?
_________________
Radical_Dreamer:
I suggested that it was the Dragon God(s)...
_________________
"For all the dreamers, everywhere...
- The planet's dream is not over yet..."
noidboy:
Entinity arguements are as just as bad as spam on boards
Stick this onto a Chrono series site
_________________
Lochtiel:
I doubt this has been said, but the more I think about it the more I can see
Belthasar as the Entity - especially when we take into consideration his role
in CC.
There he admits to being the mastermind behind the entire Time Crash. How he
came to discover Schala's predicament in the Darkness of Time is beyond me, but
after he had he sent into motion events that would later cause both the
presence of Chronopolis and Dinopolis in the past so that the Chrono Cross
could be formed with pieces of the Dragon Tear. This to me is simply
astounding, that one man can orchestrate so much. In CC he very nearly
parallels God as it is essentially because of him that El Nido even exists in
the first place.
However none of this matters if we can't find any connection to CT. What little
we know about the Entity tells us that it was close to death. Belthasar most
certainly fits this description and even passes away halfway through the game.
The Entity must have the power to control time to a degree. Well, Belthasar has
a homemade time machine. That's pretty impressive just by itself. Perhaps if he
had the Frozen Flame with him in the ruined 2300 he could have hooked it to a
machine to create gates. I'm just guessing here because there are numerous
possibilities, but the point is he DID have the ability to affect time. Also he
had the motive. He knew of Lavos and saw first hand the destruction. He of
course would want someone to come along and stop this. Why Crono and Marle were
affected, I have no idea. Perhaps originally it could have been nothing more
than coincidence. But either way after Lavos was destroyed the ruined future
ceased to exist. Suddenly Belthasar found himself in a peaceful world and set
to work on his Time Research Lab. Because the immediate threat of Lavos was
taken care of he did not invest time into making Gates and that is why they all
disappear at the end of CT.
I really do not think there is an Entity per se, but if there is one Belthasar
comes very close to fulfilling this role. Just something to think about.
_________________
Ybrik Metaknight:
Interesting theory, Lochtiel; However, I don't particularly agree with it, at
least in terms of Belthasar's actions in Chrono Trigger. You see, Belthasar is
only human, and never showed any great magical power. (Indeed, oddly enough,
none of the Gurus ever showed any significant magical prowess, but then neither
did any of other Zealians.) I think it would take someone with an adept of
Magus's caliber to cleave space-time with magic. Belthasar used science. I have
always viewed the gates as a magical rather than scientific phenomenon.
Besides, I believe that if Belthasar had the power to create gates to whatever
time he chose, he would never have had a need to make the Epoch.
And another thing, the Chrono Cross Belthasar is the Belthasar that existed in
the new timeline, as a result of Crono & Co.'s actions (namely the defeat of
Lavos). The Chrono Trigger Belthasar in A.D. 2300 is the Belthasar from the
original timeline. I think this further discounts your theory.
However, those are some very good points about Belthasar's significance in El
Nido...
Oh, btw...welcome to OCR, Lochtiel. Your additions to the discussion threads
are appreciated.
_________________
noidboy
I dont want you nerds ruining GEN DUSICUSSUon
_________________
Radical_Dreamer:
Belthasar indeed had great magical power...all the Zealians do...when would
they have needed to use it when the party was present? The Sky Gates, the spots
you step on, that restore you (forget what they are called) the elemental
books, there is definately magic in use...
_________________
noidboy:
You have been warned stop it or face blacklisting
_________________
ZeaLitY:
Would you also be rationalizing that they influenced events from another
dimension, due to their interests in the environment? Just trying to flesh this
out.
_________________
Joe Redifer:
Noidboy, please stop spamming these threads. Either contribute something to the
conversation or just ignore these threads.
_________________
ZeaLitY:
Alright. This thread isn't exactly a hot topic, so I believe nothing more can
be obtained on OCR. If you have any more commentary, please comment on
http://www.ramsus.guiltyparties.com/cc/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2&mode=&order=0&thold=0 .
Thanks for everyone who participated, and Radical_Dreamer, I'll see you there.
_________________
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