Chrono Trigger elements vs. Crono Cross elements

[ShoeMagus]

You bring up some good points. Namely in that how in the hell did Belthesar know or guess that the Planet would pull Dinopolis from its dimension, prompting the existence of the Dragonians on El Nido and subsequently the Chrono Cross to come into existence.

And if anybody can clarify that particular point, it would be of great help. Otherwise it is just a big gaping plot hole.

However:

Yes Azala did use some range of psychic powers, possibly as a way on the part of the developers to showcase her advanced intellect. However, it also makes sense that the Reptites developed the technology of the elements. The emphasis is that the Reptites, in the timeline without Lavos, are the right and natural dominant species of the planet. I think a major theme in Chrono Cross is the dichotomy between the natural, Planet-centered way of the Reptites/Dragonians (that is preserved in Marbule) and the mechanized, Lavos-influenced way of life of the human beings. It makes total sense for them to develop the CC elements as they are more directly attuned to the natural world, whereas the humans (especially the Zealians) bear the taint of Lavos; a more interesting question would be what would've happened if Lavos hadn't fallen but the humans weren't driven into extinction by the Reptites).

Despite all the aspects of Cross not necessarily having to exist already in Trigger (or how would you make a sequel at all) you would still have to explain about the North Palace and the lack of elements. It would be a weird plot hole. "Oh hey look at all this technology that the Zealians developed that they hid away in the North Palace and that you never saw when you opened it up." No, we don't have to know about every single technological development in Trigger for them to make sense to appear in subsequent sequels. But, upon discovering Lavos, Queen Zeal ordered that things associated with the elements be locked away in the North Palace. You can't change the fact that you guy there in Trigger and don't find anything resembling the CC elements.

It would work possibly with a little more build up, but I just don't see how it would work in the context of Trigger. Not by reinterpreting one line.

Actually, I'm saying both.  Story wise, I think things work much better to use connecting dialogue from Trigger to re-develop the elements used in Cross, which then offers better backstory to Trigger (and pre-Zeal history) rather than come up with something entirely different. 

Now your statements saying how this doesn't work are rather incorrect.  The key point being you're making the misconception that the information I say that could be used in Cross can't happen because it doesn't exist in it's entirety in Trigger at all.  The first problem with that, is that Cross wasn't intended to be Trigger 2 while it was being developed, so of course the entirety of details used in Cross aren't going to exist in Trigger.  To further reiterate that, can you claim the reverse (ie, the "consistent" answers to the questions you pose about the elements) for the reptites? 

As far as I've seen in the research I've done for the posts I make in this forum, plus the times I've played through both games, I haven't seen any instance of such information in Trigger to support their evolutionary development of 'elements' for Cross from the reptites.  What makes my suggestion work is that it does indeed have a direct connection to Trigger in its possibility (ie, the human race prior to the development of the Mammon Machine's link to Lavos) could have used technology reminiscent of the 'elements' used for Cross because its stated in Zeal that their "new power source" "surpasses that of the elements "  which from a dialogue standpoint indicates that if they didn't at least used that power themselves, they are at least familiar with it.  If they're familiar with it, then the whole entity splices time and space together to offset Chronopolis with a time line that just so happens to have the reptites survive without Lavos landing and magically develop this convenient plot element and game play mechanic.   Oh, and all of which, the Guru who set this up knew it would be that exact timeline merge to allow his convoluted megalomaniac plan to work.   

Additionally, you bear the wrong notion that every single technological advancement had to somehow be present in what little of Zeal Chrono and Co. saw.  That's not true, and it's not necessary to the story, so of course that isn't there.  Almost any magnitude of things could've been said about what is or isn't developed from Zeal (and it's Guru's) because the entirety of the events of Cross are the machinations of just ONE of those self same Gurus.  So here, you're reasoning contradicts itself.  Heck, despite having a flying craft the explore the world of Trigger, and what exploration is done in Cross, has been stated to still not be the entirety of that world.

Furthmore, I don't think that it characteristically makes more sense for the Reptite evolution to develop 'elements' in the first place because Azala was a psychic.  He wasn't some druid, shaman, whatever that manifested some stronger connection to the planet, he simply had mind powers.  From that trait it seems more reasonable, and consistent, to me, that Azala's decedents would further their development of psychic energy and technology —  perhaps culminating in a utopia offsetting the magical pinnacle that is Zeal.

And one last nail to hammer here: From you

More importantly, why would the Zealians need them? The Zealians prided themselves on being innate magicians. Sure, they created strong "magical" items like the Swallow or the Guardian Helm or even the Tabs, but they don't need an item that can create a fiery explosion because, presumably, they can do that perfectly fine on their own

So why would Dalton bother making weapons on the Black Bird?  Why create golems?  Why mount lasers on the epoch if he has enough power to throw a few fireballs and mop up almost any that would stand against him?  Lasers, which coincidentally enough, turned the Black Bird into a fiery explosion.  Such a weird conundrum from what you tell me about the lazy inhabitants of Zeal that would just as soon as sleep their days away when a select few develop technology that doesn't require active use of magic to utilize.

[Xenterex]

You're still pontificating on this inconsistent notion between where you judge what is proper and needed between Trigger and Cross, and what actually correlates between the two games.  Disregarding any information regarding Cross for a moment, what information/hints/technology/patterns is there that the reptites are the "right and natural dominant species?"  There's nothing about them being more attuned to the planet from the perspective of just Trigger; so to demand such substance exists on the end of potential Zealean history is an absurdity.

Additionally, any particular factor you think would need to be added to explain this some how "missing tech" (despite your own listed contradiction in your post) can be ret-conned in a sequel game, much like how everything mentioned about Marbule, Dragonians, elements, etc all arose out of Cross.

And that's the point I'm making here; setting aside Cross for a moment, there is actually more relevant information to establishing the story progression of what Kato did with Cross via human development already than there was with having to fabricate everything from the reptites.  To further reiterate this, one, what Chrono and Co see in Zeal isn't going to resemble the elements from Cross because Cross wasn't a factor in the making of Trigger at all, and the dialogue that I quoted from Zeal indicates even if it was there, no one is going to be using it, so it's not going to be seen by the players. Plus, its not like we know what these devices for the elements look like anyway — they're not like materia that had substance and physical depictions when not in active player use.  Two, Cross wasn't even a consideration at the time of the initial release of Trigger, so of course "elements" as Cross put them, aren't going to exist anywhere, Zeal or no.  Three, Cross takes place millions of years in the future compared to the date of Zeal, which is a considerable time for technology to progress and change, so simply because something didn't exist directly at Zeal, doesn't mean it can't have an impact on the game's present.

Course I'm also basing my perspective on the notion that not all human magic-relating things are directly linked to Lavos.  If you're taking the approach that it is dependent on Lavos, that that's going to explain part of the difference in our opinions here.

[ShoeMagus]

Yes, I think in essence that the magic that human beings developed was linked to Lavos. Initially because of the effect that Lavos had on human evolution via the Frozen Flame, and later on after the Zealians discovered him sleeping under the ocean. The forces they originally called on were of course cosmic and did not have a source in Lavos, but the capacity to use magic came from Lavos.

Okay if I disregard the ideas and themes of Chrono Cross. You're suggesting that the whole thing Kato did with Elements could have been done using Zeal as the basis instead of the Reptites. That I can understand. But your idea still isn't fleshed out. Are you suggesting a system more to do with innate magic? Or at leas the innate magic system? Or like the CC Elements? I mean, if you haven't thought our specifics, then that's fine. I'm just curious as to what you envision this to be.

I think Cross is generally well put together. It does invent a totally different system of magic, but also gives very good reasons for why its there and why you didn't see it in Chrono Trigger. A good deal of the new content in Chrono Cross is explainable through the Dinopolis/Chronopolis conflict. It leaves most of the established continuity alone (rather than retconning). I like that. I like when stories build on established ideas rather than throwing them out. The biggest change that I think Chrono Cross makes to the past is the introduction of the Frozen Flame. And because that was presumably in the Mammon Machine, it is understandable that we didn't see that in Chrono Trigger.

Granted that there was in all likelihood a lot of things in Zeal that we didn't see. "Elements" in the statement you keep referring to of course literally refers to the Innate system (Light, dark, fire, water) that Spekkio teaches about. Are you suggesting that Cross could have been based on the Innate system rather than the Dragonian Elements? Or are you suggesting that somehow that line could refer to something else altogether that was never encountered?

Interestingly, the Compendium's Retranslation[/urll] says, "Zeal has prospered this much through the use of a new energy far more powerful than the planet's powers of sky, dark, fire, and water." So logically anything you're basing on this line would have to be based on these four rather than some other expanded system. The language of the script, going on precedence, also refers back to the Trigger system.

Examining this line, then of course Crono need not have encountered whatever you're trying to get at. But still, the main power sources and artifacts of Zeal were stored in the Sun Palace and Northern Palaces respectively. Still I'd imagine that there would be at least some small encounter, if you are using Zeal as the basis. I mean, they "encountered" the Frozen Flame in the form of the Mammon Machine.

[Xenterex]

You're suggesting that the whole thing Kato did with Elements could have been done using Zeal as the basis instead of the Reptites. That I can understand. But your idea still isn't fleshed out.

I've haven't "fleshed" it out in direct response to your post, but I have posted regarding this back on November 13th, 2008.  Effectively, spekkio says that the 4 elements comprise all matter in the effective universe, and innate magic is the manipulation of these forces.  Additional quotes and compendium articles place shadow as at least being in effect a combination of the other 2 to 3 elements.  So in effect, a sufficiently skilled shadow magic user, could manipulate all effective matter.  If he's capable of manipulation of all matter (and from a physical sciences perspective, all these 'forces' are also matter being manipulated) than any effective ability combining the "dragonian" elements together, could essentially be done as well by shadow magic manipulation.  Thus, one aspect to not needed CC elements for the effective story.

Additionally, I'm going to broaden your question and respond by saying "both" again.  Either using the effective CT system (as above) can work, or again, using the current game history to effectively "create" draconian elements in CT still works too.  For one, any manipulation of matter for force (no matter how magical) is still a manipulation of matter (as again, I stated in physical sciences, "magic" is simply specific manipulations of matter) and the draconian method is simply a development of technology that allows for said manipulations of matter, which in effect, doesn't matter on the person, but strictly on the tech since any character can pretty much use any element.  The nature of how this tech works had no given limiting factor that can't have such tech be developed through human evolution, as they've already demonstrated a knack for having tech that can at least emulate some magical effects (like The Zeal lazers) which, frankly, I don't see as too different from CC since in CC you buy individual spells to socket to the characters grid.

Furthermore, you're quoted line from the retranslation "Zeal has prospered this much through the use of a new energy far more powerful than the planet's powers of sky, dark, fire, and water." is actually a further demonstrator of my point because it directly sites the planet's powers, powers you said are "Planet-centered way of the Reptites/Dragonians".  Such a claim, that directly sites the planet's own innate forces of fire, water, sky and dark still points at the elements of CC.  Why? Because it is the "planet's powers"  of said forces.  Those 4 comprise the effective matter of ALL the universe, not just the planet's own; which then makes sense why Lavos' energy, which is effecting ALL, would be superior to the planet's own.  As I see it, semantics aside, either CT only features manipulation of only some of the planet's forces (and the dragonians figured out how to use the rest) or its just a difference of game mechanics now; one used 4 for simplicity, the other uses more because it wants more variety and has the memory capacity to handle that.

The key point here being, that in order to make a comparison of Lavos' powers to that of the elements still requires Zeal to have a grasp of the effective power of the planet (ie the CC elements) Thus, in my eyes, my idea still stands.

Furthermore,  you're still not taking CC our of the equation in your thought process to see mine.  For one, you not only reference the Frozen Flame, something that didn't exist in CT, yet accept because CC said it was there;  which, oddly enough, when you read into that and older forum discussions, creates another story plot hole in how the chosen of the frozen flame works out in effect between Schala and Queen Zeal and Serge.   
I digress, but point being, you've accepted and take a factor not in one game for granted because the most recent game said so.  My point being, that another game could simply do the same thing again.

 Something like "Oh, Zeal was made to float because the palaces had underground generators that could manipulate the elements because human kind made devices to manipulate the elements before the Frozen Flame was utilized in the Mammon Machine"  And wow, something that is almost completely overlooked in an older game becomes a potential plot development point in other.  It's not like I need to magically edit Trigger to create some auspicious plot point for a game sequel.


Now, to further differentiate our viewpoints here, I'm going to address the point about Lavos and magic.  One of the additional factors I find in CC being bunk is this notion that humans needed the Frozen Flame, or their interaction with it, allowed for magic.  Okay, so what about the Mystic's?  They didn't contact the flame indicating that "Magic" as we know it in CT is not directly dependent on that Frozen Flame.    If that's not a direct factor there, than the possibility for human's to evolve innate magical use in some given time line/dimension is a possibility; just as the reptites evolving into dragons is a possibility.  So, then, humans could then develop "elemental tech", and, again, I say, it could make a lot more sense to bring that out then the megalomania of the Chronopolis plan.

[ShoeMagus]

Oh, I just brought up the Frozen Flame as an example of something new that Cross introduced that was explained enough so that it did not cause weird questions for the first game.

I think the debate about whether the four elements were planet or universal is largely semantic. The Zealians said "planet's" powers, but Spekkio said that all things are based on the four elements (meaning the entirety of the universe). It leads me to think that the Zeal assertion that they were the Planet's powers was more of a generic "Nature" statement. Though, it may have also been a kind of differentiation from the power of Lavos, who came from outer space and whose power seemed to be different from the four elements (though if Spekkio's assertion is accepted at face value, then Lavos would still in some ways be governed by the four elements).

What I meant before was that the CC elements are forces specific to the planet, though not necessarily of the universe at large. Its the only explanation that makes sense to me.