Author Topic: Masamune power theory  (Read 1401 times)

Ekul

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Masamune power theory
« on: July 23, 2008, 04:40:43 pm »
I noticed in the Articles section that a popular theory on how the Masamune effects Magus is because Frog was empowered to fight Magus and therefor had a greater effect on him. Also, in Chrono Cross, Masa and Mune had the ability to fuse into Serge's swallow.

My inquiry then is this: Couldn't Masa and Mune fuse into Magus' Scythe? According to this theory, the more will that the person has to strike down their enemy, the more power the Masamune has. Magus spent several years brooding on how to kill the monster that destroyed his only home, corrupted his mother and tortured his sister. For a large portion of his life, his main goal, beyond any other was to destroy Lavos.

However, this theory is somewhat destroyed by the fact that Frog was trying to protect his country and his home whereas Magus was acting in hatred. We know that the Masamune was corrupted after Chrono Trigger (but we don't really know why)

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 02:00:00 am »
At what point would they have had the opportunity?

Ekul

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 02:37:08 am »
I suppose they would have done this right before facing Lavos. Since they are on a first name basis with Melchoir he might have the ability and the motive to help.

wwfgd

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 01:20:16 pm »
By the time Frog fights Magus, he's beginning to awaken to his creative will.  What I mean is that he's acting out of a real desire to change the world, not purely to find atonement or vengeance.  Magus, on the other hand... as admirable as he is in some ways, his grudge against Lavos is fundamentally a case of arrested development.  Magus is trapped by the past.

Now, Masa and Mune are dream creatures, and the Masamune gains its power directly from the will of the person wielding it.  Thus, I think it is more powerful in the hands of a person who is oriented toward the future.  One might compare it to the Time Egg, which is just a catalyst that combines the effort of the PCs and the dream of the planet into a magical effect.    IMO, Magus has no vision for the world post-Lavos, he just wants to kill the SOB.  That would make the Masamune (or any similarly-powered weapon) useless to him.

TNT-M4v3r1cK

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2008, 06:29:01 pm »
Indeed. Although, When Cyrus died and Glenn got turned into Frog, weren't they at the Denadoro mts. looking for the Masamune, until Magus and Ozzie stopped them? Magus probably wasn't just taking a stroll in the woods, and happened to run into them. For all we know, he was looking for the Masamune, and since it is still there for Frog to use 10 years later, that implies that he didn't get it. Perhaps it was he who broke it in the first place?

V_Translanka

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 07:19:25 pm »
Cyrus already got the Masamune. We know this because Masa & Mune talk about how Cyrus had gone through their trials. So then he had it when they confronted Magus.

All Frog is after is revenge as well in the beginning. All he thinks about is what Magus did to him & Cyrus. It was only with the Masamune that he thought he had any hope of actually getting that revenge, though. He doesn't get over this, really, until he goes to Cyrus' grave & unlocks the true power of the Masamune.

fralas1354

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2008, 02:59:23 pm »
Not meaning to completely contradict the person above me, but masa and mune did say right before the final fight that nobody had reached that fight since cyrus, which for all we know could mean that he got to that point and  lost

Also, I believe that like everyone else has said in order for the Masamune to work not only do you have to ultimately have good in your desires but also must prove your power and worth to Masa and Mune

Does anybody have any ideas on how the Masamune would have become corrupted because to this day that baffles me

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2008, 11:02:12 pm »
Quote
Not meaning to completely contradict the person above me, but masa and mune did say right before the final fight that nobody had reached that fight since cyrus, which for all we know could mean that he got to that point and  lost

but didn't magus break the masamune?  that's why frog had the hilt and the blade remained in the mountains.  with the blade broken it was useless.

as for how the sword got corrupted...  there's a thread around here somewhere where we've through ideas, but nothing too conclusive.

Xenterex

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Re: Masamune power theory
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 02:52:27 am »
There are two factors involved on the masamune.  The first, is its made of dreamstone, which is an effective conduit of energy, and not just Lavos' energy.  Take the Mammon Machine, when you fight it during the Zeal boss sequence, it alters and changes all forms of energy that effect it, not just Lavos'. As one example, it turns magical energy into attack power.  I think the machine was originally created to act as an amplifier based on the elemental/planetary energies that Zeal utilized prior to drawing upon Lavos' energy, and then was later discovery to be able to work on Lavos energies, which Zeal perceived to be greater, and was thus corrupted by it.

The second factor on the sword is Frog.  Between his determination and focus on defeating Magus, and also his superior swordsmanship to cyrus  (i think in reference to both physically and mentally)  he his able to draw upon the energies Magus uses as a defense. This in turn 'breaks', changes and I'd say eventually destroys the barriers Magus creates.

Another factor could be the relation between dreamstone and Lavos.  Zeal grew to draw power from and on Lavos, so I'd say much of Magus' original powers were drawn from Lavos,  which is part of why his attacks didn't have any effect.  Melchoir created the 'red dagger' to stop/counter the Mammon Machine,  so dreamstone, which I think is a manifestation or creation of the world/entity,  is created to fight against Lavos. The masamune then, cuts into the power that Magus is drawing from Lavos.

As to the corruption of the masamune, i'd say that's twofold as well.  One aspect are the deads of its users  (dark and murderous) and the whole "not cleaning' your blade corruption.  Another aspect could be from Lavos + Schala/TD.  Masa and mune are dream creatures, and could be effected by 'dream energies'.  Queen Zeal's dying words described Lavos as being in a nightmare, or in other words, a corrupted dream.  Between not having an owner to channel positive energies into the masamune, how its used, and effects from Lavos/TD in the form of nightmares could all combine into its corruption.  Again, back to the Mammon Machine.  It could be perceived as being corrupted too;  corrupted by the greed and ambitions of Queen Zeal into drawing more power, and then compounded by Lavos.


edit:  Forgot to comment on the part involving Magus using the masamune. >.>  Effectively yes, I'd say he could use the masamune, potentially even as an amplifier, or boost to his magical prowess.  Self duel tech perhaps?  However, I think there are other factors that would also reduce its effectiveness in Magus' hands.  One being that he probably hates the thing.  Its not necessarily a bane to him, especially not if he were to wield it, but as a symbol itself.  It can remind Magus of being to weak to beat Lavos himself (as its a creation of Zeal, and also a tool of Frog)  Two, in regards to defeating Lavos,  Magus probably doesn't possess the focus, training and mindset to utilize the masamune beyond what Frog can do with it.  I'd think a large part of this being that the masamune is a sword, and intentionally so.  On one hand, I think that in CC, how the mastermune is formed is pretty weak, but on the otherhand, its also possible Serge needed it, or at least the properties of dreamstone, to beat the TD. 

On the otherhand,  perhaps after CT, Magus is why the masamune is corrupted. Perhaps he tried to use it to help him rescue/find Schala, and the nature of his dark powers, (he is the demon king afterall)  corrupted it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:25:51 am by Xenterex »