A Quirk of Forward Time Travel

[KebreI]

Nothing really indicates that regular time traveling splits the dimension everytime.

Does Future Magus' quote that "there are as many worlds as there are potentialities" have any bearing on this understanding? Seems to me that Kato is positiing infinite dimensions, a Multiverse.

A la Multiworlds theory. Makes sense Kato would want the game to have some basic grounds in real physics.

[Chrono'99]

But then it happens everytime "something happens", not just when someone time-travels. I think the difference with the dimension split in CC is that Another and Home Worlds really are strongly connected to each other. They influence each other at various locations (the Black Dragon dreams in one world and it materializes in the other world; move the rock in Shadow Forest and it moves in both dimensions; there's the whole Turnip stuff, etc.). There's a Temporal Vortex between them also (Sprigg's home).

On the other hand, nothing seems to connect the main dimension(s) and the Reptite one and the RD one (though crossovers are still possible as shown with the planet pulling Terra Tower). It seems split dimensions are different than potential dimensions. Then again, maybe "Temporal Vortex" from CC and "Dimensional Vortex" from CT DS are meant to be the same thing. So maybe split and potential dimensions are essentially the same type of dimensions but split ones are "closer" while potential ones are "farther"?

[Thought]

Warmgun, unfortunately your theory is in contradiction to the game itself. You said that one can never see a timeline that has been destroyed due to time travel taking place in your future. If that is the case, Crono himself could have never seen the ruined future because time traveling in his future (both personal and objective) led to the events that resulted in it being destroyed.

As an extension of BROJ's comments, if Crono first travels at Time Error 3:56pm, then a James at Time Error 3:55pm will always see the ruined future, regardless of if James is 23 years old or 40. Curiously, this means that a 23 year old James could see the saved future and a 40 year old James could see the ruined future, depending on the Time Error. But not both in the same reality (for reasons Chrono'99 pointed out).

Side note: It is kind of disorienting having two Gurus of Time posting in one thread. I keep thinking your Faust.

Does Future Magus' quote that "there are as many worlds as there are potentialities" have any bearing on this understanding? Seems to me that Kato is positiing infinite dimensions, a Multiverse.

I suppose that depends on the nature of the dimensions. We can imagine two types of alternate dimensions. Let me label these Branching and Non-Branching dimensions, for ease of explanation.

Several Non-Branching dimensions could exist utterly separate from each other. Imagine our universe the moment the big bang occurred; everything that follows should be exactly known, based on the positions of the various particles and laws of physics. But it is possible for those laws of physics to have been different. There is no inherent reason, for example, that pi has to = 3.14. There could be an alternate dimension out there in which pi = 3.15, or even 3 flat. There would still be a multiverse, there would still be as many worlds at there are potentialities, but they wouldn't connect with each other like Home and Another world connect.

This is essentially the multiverse postulated by Arthur C. Clarke in his book, Rama Revealed. There might be endless universes, but none of them can be traced back to another one.

A Branching dimension is more along the lines of what we normally mean by multiverse. A being takes an action and a universe splits off from that point, forming another dimension. And another will eventually form from that, and another from that, and so on. All the known dimensions could in theory be traced back to a single universe.

I think Kato has essentially set things up so that Chrono Cross is an instance of a Branching dimension in a Non-Branching Reality. The Dragonian Dimension, by random chance, happens to be very similar to the Keystone Dimension, but at no point in history did it branch off from the Keystone dimension. Indeed, that would explain why it is the dragonian dimension; the effects of gravity might be a little more or a little less powerful, sending Lavos flying by the planet rather than crashing into it. Similarly, Radical Dreamer is a totally separate dimension whose outcomes were similar but unrelated to the Keystone Dimension. Another World, however, that's a pain. A dimension split which doesn't happen in the reality. Thus the brouhaha over the fact.

[warmgun]

Warmgun, unfortunately your theory is in contradiction to the game itself. You said that one can never see a timeline that has been destroyed due to time travel taking place in your future. If that is the case, Crono himself could have never seen the ruined future because time traveling in his future (both personal and objective) led to the events that resulted in it being destroyed.

Regardless of the time travel mechanics, causality still applies.  Crono shouldn't see the saved future until he actually saves it (in his personal reference time).  Believing otherwise would introduce causal loops, right?  Crono could enjoy the saved future without actually saving it.  This also applies to Belthasar, I think.  He's directly responsible for aiding Crono in his quest, he built Epoch.  Also, we don't see Robo tilling the fields in 1000AD until we actually leave him to till the fields in 600 AD.  My example has a marked difference from these examples, James has no influence on the events that determine the future and no changes have been made to the timeline before James enters a gate.  This is what I meant by having all time travel occur in "his future" and why I placed him in 65000001 BC.  We don't have an example of anyone like this in the game.

James' destination doesn't exactly depend on Crono, not in the way you worded it. James ends up in both futures. When Crono visits the ruined future, he can stumble upon James. After Crono alters time so that there's a bright future, James still ends up in the future, from Prehistory. The same thing happened to Belthasar. Note that it's not a dimension split; it's just two versions of the same timeline in a different arrangement (James from the bright future can't meet James from the ruined one).

I don't see how there can be two James's.  I thought the time error theory makes a claim about which future James ends up in.  If James enters the gate too early, then he's in the ruined future.  Later, he'd be in the saved future.  Why would a James end up in both?  I don't think this applies to Belthasar for the reasons stated in my previous paragraph.  Belthasar HAS to exist in the ruined future because he's directly responsible for the saved future.



As an aside, I think we're conflating two ideas here.  Firstly is the idea of how time behaves independent of time travel, how it flows and is affected by external influences.  I would place the rules governing how changing the past changes the future in this category. Secondly is the idea of how the time travel occurs, what determined where and when the traveler ends up and how does it affect the perception of the time traveler.  I think time error theory belongs here.  In other words, we have a world with (1)physical laws that govern time and (2)technology, with its own rules, that allow time travel to occur without introducing paradoxes (otherwise it wouldn't be possible).  This is probably arguing semantics and maybe there aren't two distinct ideas, but it's been on my mind.

[BROJ]

Warmgun, unfortunately your theory is in contradiction to the game itself. You said that one can never see a timeline that has been destroyed due to time travel taking place in your future. If that is the case, Crono himself could have never seen the ruined future because time traveling in his future (both personal and objective) led to the events that resulted in it being destroyed.

Regardless of the time travel mechanics, causality still applies.  Crono shouldn't see the saved future until he actually saves it (in his personal reference time).  Believing otherwise would introduce causal loops, right?  Crono could enjoy the saved future without actually saving it.  This also applies to Belthasar, I think.  He's directly responsible for aiding Crono in his quest, he built Epoch.  Also, we don't see Robo tilling the fields in 1000AD until we actually leave him to till the fields in 600 AD.  My example has a marked difference from these examples, James has no influence on the events that determine the future and no changes have been made to the timeline before James enters a gate.  This is what I meant by having all time travel occur in "his future" and why I placed him in 65000001 BC.  We don't have an example of anyone like this in the game.

I believe you're still assuming a 4D construct, in that your argument of causality is dependent on there only being 4 dimensions(three of spaciality, and one of causality; excluding one of interpolated causality─time error).

James' destination doesn't exactly depend on Crono, not in the way you worded it. James ends up in both futures. When Crono visits the ruined future, he can stumble upon James. After Crono alters time so that there's a bright future, James still ends up in the future, from Prehistory. The same thing happened to Belthasar. Note that it's not a dimension split; it's just two versions of the same timeline in a different arrangement (James from the bright future can't meet James from the ruined one).

I don't see how there can be two James's.  I thought the time error theory makes a claim about which future James ends up in.  If James enters the gate too early, then he's in the ruined future.  Later, he'd be in the saved future.  Why would a James end up in both?  I don't think this applies to Belthasar for the reasons stated in my previous paragraph.  Belthasar HAS to exist in the ruined future because he's directly responsible for the saved future.

Time error's purpose is to preserve old versions of dimensions(or recursive coordinates as I referred to them earlier) in order to preserve and order information pertaining to said dimensions, sort of how CC describes the DBT.

As an aside, I think we're conflating two ideas here.  Firstly is the idea of how time behaves independent of time travel, how it flows and is affected by external influences.  I would place the rules governing how changing the past changes the future in this category. Secondly is the idea of how the time travel occurs, what determined where and when the traveler ends up and how does it affect the perception of the time traveler.  I think time error theory belongs here.  In other words, we have a world with (1)physical laws that govern time and (2)technology, with its own rules, that allow time travel to occur without introducing paradoxes (otherwise it wouldn't be possible).  This is probably arguing semantics and maybe there aren't two distinct ideas, but it's been on my mind.

Again, I reiterate, I think you're only visualizing the Chronoverse in only 4 dimensions. But, in order to help you visualize; imagine James time traveling to 2300 AD. The instant he leaves the natural order of time, a new dimension is synthesized from his interference of the flow of time. The old one is preserved(in the DBT)─hence two instances of James exist, separated by not only time, but also time error.

[Thought]

Regardless of the time travel mechanics, causality still applies.  Crono shouldn't see the saved future until he actually saves it (in his personal reference time).

And I am merely claiming that the same applies to James. He shouldn't see the saved future until Crono actually saves it (in his personal reference time). Just because Crono lived and acted in James' future doesn't mean he has actually defeated lavos yet. Crono is in Normal Time Future relative to James, but Crono and James can be contemporaries in Time Error (indeed, all people at all points in time would be contemporaries in Time Error, I think). The future that James would travel to is determined by Time Error, not normal time. The two don't match up, so even though Crono lives in the future, he saves Lavos in a future of a different kind (Time Error future).