The Einlanzer

[Zaperking]

Magic was not created. It had always been there. It held up the universe pretty much. The elements are the energy of the planet.

The Dragonians being so close with the planet developed the elements of the universe, the natural energy. Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Darkness and Light are all of them. The Dragonians were able to use certain spots on Earth to seal the energies into little stony thingies probably and called them elements. With them, stuff could be done.

Magic is like the foundations of the universe. The primary energies are Fire, Water, Lightning and Shadow.
With the power that the humans were embeded with, they were able to use it, as you said, the FF was like a doorway to that power. I'm pretty sure that it was very basic, and they always used Shadow as the principle magic. But after King Zeal died, Queen Zeal finally found the Flame and with the guru's help, contructed the Mammon Machine that drained Lavos' energy so the Enlightened Ones had an infinite amount of power and did not even have to learn magic to use it. They could just channel his energies. People such as Schala, Queen Zeal, Magus and the Guru's stuck to the original magic that they had learned (Shadow) and used it to their advantage. Queen Zeal inparticular combined hers with Lavos' to enhance it.
That's why my belief is that Lightning, Fire and Water just split off from Shadow, and Shadow can be the original power. Well, it suits the universe, right? Anti-matter, Matter etc.

Also, I think what Spekkio said to Ayla was an incorrect translation. Instead of "You were born before magic" he should have said something like "You were born before people could harness magic".

[AuraTwilight]

But Shadow being more powerful than all the other magic types would throw off the equalibrium. And clearly, Lightning is supposed to be the opposite of Shadow just like Fire was to Water.

[ShoeMagus]

Magic was not created. It had always been there. It held up the universe pretty much. The elements are the energy of the planet.


The Dragonians being so close with the planet developed the elements of the universe, the natural energy. Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Darkness and Light are all of them. The Dragonians were able to use certain spots on Earth to seal the energies into little stony thingies probably and called them elements. With them, stuff could be done.

Magic is like the foundations of the universe. The primary energies are Fire, Water, Lightning and Shadow.
With the power that the humans were embeded with, they were able to use it, as you said, the FF was like a doorway to that power. I'm pretty sure that it was very basic, and they always used Shadow as the principle magic. But after King Zeal died, Queen Zeal finally found the Flame and with the guru's help, contructed the Mammon Machine that drained Lavos' energy so the Enlightened Ones had an infinite amount of power and did not even have to learn magic to use it. They could just channel his energies. People such as Schala, Queen Zeal, Magus and the Guru's stuck to the original magic that they had learned (Shadow) and used it to their advantage. Queen Zeal inparticular combined hers with Lavos' to enhance it.
That's why my belief is that Lightning, Fire and Water just split off from Shadow, and Shadow can be the original power. Well, it suits the universe, right? Anti-matter, Matter etc.

Also, I think what Spekkio said to Ayla was an incorrect translation. Instead of "You were born before magic" he should have said something like "You were born before people could harness magic".

Ehh semantics. Thats what I meant. I didn't mean to suggest that magic didn't always exist. Hows this, The Origin of Magic Users?

Was that meant as a refutation? The Frozen Flame is the doorway. It lead humans to the capacity, brainwise or otherwise to have the ability. It lead humanity to be able to use magic the way they did. To summon the powers without the elemental grids. But the Dreamstone gave humans the power of the magic. It gave us the power itself to use it.

How do I verbalize this? Well look at the other sources of it. The Sun Stone for one. The Rainbow shell. The "energies of this tired planet." These are all things that are of the Earth. Along with the Dreamstone. Are we to believe that it was something foreign that gave humanity the ability? The capacity of the ability sure, thats been beaten out enough. But the ability itself. That once we had the capacity, the Dreamstone began to affect us in a new way. So it would cultivate our dreams.

Of course then the Zealians would find Lavos' power. And it was a different kind of magic. Queen Zeal avowed it so. She showed disdain for the energies of the Earth and began to covet the power of Lavos. The power that was so ridiculously immense. She began to show disdain for the other sources. The Sun stone, the rainbow shell. I think if she hadn't needed Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, that would've been banned to. Locked away somewhere. So that power only came from Lavos and she aloned controlled it.

In her mind at least. No one controls Lavos.

That makes sense Aura. I recall it from the booklet however.

Let me point this out. In the Magus fight, when Magus used magic shields as he used each successive element on you. After he would use Dark Bomb and change so Shadow could alone hurt him, you could (if you had Lucca) use Crono, Frog, and Lucca's triple Tech delta storm and that would hurt him. Why? Because all of the Elements combined created Shadow.

And similarly all of them are only pieces. And not as ultimately powerful as the whole. I'm not saying, though, that one using Lightning could not destroy one using Shadow. It depends on skill and training. But Ultimately, Shadow is dominant over the others. As can be shown by Magus' ability to use Lightning2, Fire2, and Ice2 along with his assortment of Shadow styled abilities.

[Zaperking]

But Shadow being more powerful than all the other magic types would throw off the equalibrium. And clearly, Lightning is supposed to be the opposite of Shadow just like Fire was to Water.

Maybe, but guess what?
Fire and Ice = Ice loses out. Lucca vs Marle is a different matter. Because there is an ice innate and a water innate, that like stuffs up things. It's like saying that if we had another party member, one could be "Lava" and one could be "light" etc.

But the whole sence of having a balance would make sence too. Like the FF is a counter to Dreamstone, Shadow magic (which may have produced the others) would have created it's own counter.
I just think that Shadow is some how more superior as lightning/fire/water are more elemental (elemental palace) whilst Shadow is more universal in terms of doing stuff (I mean, he can cast any other spell, his own and also turn people into frogs and other stuff).

Of course then the Zealians would find Lavos' power. And it was a different kind of magic. Queen Zeal avowed it so. She showed disdain for the energies of the Earth and began to covet the power of Lavos. The power that was so ridiculously immense. She began to show disdain for the other sources. The Sun stone, the rainbow shell. I think if she hadn't needed Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, that would've been banned to. Locked away somewhere. So that power only came from Lavos and she aloned controlled it.

It wasn't a different kind of magic, it was a different kind of power that they could channel for magical uses. I don't think Zeal had the rainbow shell, and the sun stone may either be natural or like maybe a comet that landed before 65,000,000BC.
I don't get what you mean by Dreamstone being banned if it had to build the Mammon Machine? It WAS built out of dreamstone, and the Frozen Flame was inside the machine. Dreamstone is an energy leech that aplifies energy at someones command.
In this case, Zeal did not control the power. It was Schala who did. She was forced into it, as if she were the Arbiter.

How do I verbalize this? Well look at the other sources of it. The Sun Stone for one. The Rainbow shell. The "energies of this tired planet." These are all things that are of the Earth. Along with the Dreamstone. Are we to believe that it was something foreign that gave humanity the ability? The capacity of the ability sure, thats been beaten out enough. But the ability itself. That once we had the capacity, the Dreamstone began to affect us in a new way. So it would cultivate our dreams.

By "energies of this tired planet"  I thought had always been about the sunstone. But it doesn't matter. The planet is tired. The Zealians can probably feel that it has no energy. Why? Because Lavos is draining it.
And yes, we are to believe that something foreign gave the humans the ability to use magic. If you've ever played CC, then you'd realise that it is indeed the Frozen Flame. It connects very well to what Belthasar said. Of how the humans evolved so fast (from a power beyond comrephension) and soon love and hate were born (humans are a contradiction, a species born out of love and hatred).
The initial ability was probably channeling the energies of the sunstone or something, or maybe the humans could use it naturally. But then the Zealians got lazy when Lavos' energy was harnessed, and they just decided to leech of it, some just slept all day. (Remember those people in the mammon machine room, like having an orgasm over the power?)

[ShoeMagus]

I meant that if the Queen didn't need the Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, she would've forsaken it like the Sun Stone.

Once again, I've played CC and all thats every insinuated is that the FF gave the capacity to use magic as it was used.

Yes the Dreamstone is used to store energy. But does it not affect without command? We've seen evidence of this through the Masamune, made from Dreamstone. Whilst it was receptive to the emotions of the user and did amplify it, it also affected the user. This is MOST evident in the corrupted form as the Masamune affects both Radius and Dario to turn against their friends. And not on command. But wildly, uncontrolled.

A quick question, what exactly were the elements made of? Yes the power of the elements came from Power Spots, but what exactly did the Dragonians use to store the power?

And Zeal only controlled the power in mind. Like I said. I'm speaking in terms of Queen Zeal's point of view. In a way, by locking away all power sources (except for Lavos) and then being able to Harness Lavos, she was the one controlling magic in the Kingdom. Sure, Schala was the one who actually controlled the Mammon Machine. But Queen Zeal, from her point of view, was setting herself up as the prime source of magic (or power or whatever word you use. Energy)  in the kingdom.

[Zaperking]

I guess, Zeal's main goal was to gain immortality, and after that, the rest of her people could.

But I think the problem with the Sunstone was that it was unreliable because the energy was running out anyway.

I still don't understand what you mean by the dreamstone thing with that example. The Masamune was possessed by whatever. I don't see how that makes dreamstone the teacher of magic Oo

[ShoeMagus]

I mean that the Masamune (which was MADE out of Dreamstone) didn't react on command always. It did act on its on. Depending on the energies stored in it, I believe it could very well change humans. We've only seen behavior changes with it (unless there's some change in Radical Dreamers that I don't know about) but it opens up for speculation.

Why am I arguing? Cause its too sure with you guys that its the Frozen Flame when we really don't know. We know there was an evolution because of the Frozen Flame. But that doesn't neccessarily mean it was the Frozen Flame that gave human beings the power to use magic.

As it is, you are really good at arguing your point and I think mine is defeated for the moment.

[Zaperking]

I mean that the Masamune (which was MADE out of Dreamstone) didn't react on command always. It did act on its on. Depending on the energies stored in it, I believe it could very well change humans. We've only seen behavior changes with it (unless there's some change in Radical Dreamers that I don't know about) but it opens up for speculation.

Why am I arguing? Cause its too sure with you guys that its the Frozen Flame when we really don't know. We know there was an evolution because of the Frozen Flame. But that doesn't neccessarily mean it was the Frozen Flame that gave human beings the power to use magic.

As it is, you are really good at arguing your point and I think mine is defeated for the moment.

Well with the Masamune, it doesn't do things by itself till it has that evil possessed soul in it in CC, I think.

The issue with the Frozen Flame is that using common logic, you will realise that it is it. There's nothing great ever about the Dreamstone in the whole story. The Frozen Flame is magical, it has magical powers and granted the humans the ability to do so. The Dreamstone was passed down simply and used to store energy. There's nothing special about the stone. And since it's an Earth thing, the humans wouldn't get it if it was special because the Earth (from the Dragon's point of view) despises the humans. And even the Dragonians didn't get to use magic, but only elements.

Thank, I'm flattered. Though, I like your debating too. You're better than most of the higher poster members. But heck, they just argue and don't give any evidence to why someone else is wrong and simply make you feel like giving up because they're to arrogant and what they say has to be true.