Author Topic: Hajj  (Read 2202 times)

Mystik3eb

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1022
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/dfscanl/index.html
Hajj
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2006, 01:59:16 am »
Ouch.

In either case, I hope he's ok. Sure, chances are it had nothing to do with him or his family or friends, but who knows?

As for Josh's perspective...I can respect these people for what they do, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I may even find it stupid...but I know that, to them, it's the right thing to do, and that earns my whole-hearted respect. I feel sad for the people who lost their lives doing something I would find a particular waste of time.

Like if I were to go to church again because someone bugged me into it, then die in some freak-explosion or something that only affected people in the church, then I'd be one to call an idiot.

JossiRossi

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
    • Http://spriteville.comicgen.com
Hajj
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2006, 02:40:10 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Fool! You are only seeing what you want to see.


And with that piece of sweet irony I give up on this topic.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2006, 04:03:27 am »
Quote from: Mystik3eb
I can respect these people for what they do, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I may even find it stupid...but I know that, to them, it's the right thing to do, and that earns my whole-hearted respect. I feel sad for the people who lost their lives doing something I would find a particular waste of time.

That sounds like the diplomatic version of my position. But are you really serious about the "wholehearted respect," eh? I remember such a time when I used to give away respect freely, too. O, youth! But you get to discover that respect is a precious currency that needs to be earned. We can sympathize with these pilgrims, and pity them their misfortune, and of course offer to help them back on their feet...but otherwise there is nothing to be done other than explain to them the nature of their folly--else they fail to learn from their mistakes, and set history on a course of self-repetition.

Quote from: JossiRossi
And with that piece of sweet irony I give up on this topic.

I just can't win. Either people will argue until doomsday, or they'll get so teh pwn'd that they simply up and leave. Nobody has the class to concede anymore. I can't recall ever having persuaded anybody of anything on the whole Compendium. So, either I've been wrong 100 percent of the time, or people are too stubborn for their own good.

Oh well. Par for the course.

Mystik3eb

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1022
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/dfscanl/index.html
Hajj
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2006, 07:42:25 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
That sounds like the diplomatic version of my position. But are you really serious about the "wholehearted respect," eh? I remember such a time when I used to give away respect freely, too. O, youth! But you get to discover that respect is a precious currency that needs to be earned. We can sympathize with these pilgrims, and pity them their misfortune, and of course offer to help them back on their feet...but otherwise there is nothing to be done other than explain to them the nature of their folly--else they fail to learn from their mistakes, and set history on a course of self-repetition.


My only problem with your constant push in the direction of "they're wrong and following folly" is that you still don't have anything to prove them wrong. You believe in something, just as they do. They believe they're right, without proof. You believe they're wrong, without proof. It's all the same.

Now, talking about people who resort to drugs and shit to fall on in case of feeling lonely or depressed or stressed or sad...now, see, I know why they do it, and I understand why, but it's more than me just not agreeing with it. I know it's the wrong choice, I know there are better choices, and that's where I don't give my "whole-hearted respect". They say, in defense of being "attacked", that it's hard. Well duh it's hard. Life's hard. It's hard for...pretty much everyone. Life IS hard to everyone in their own perspective, actually.

But people always fail to see past the choices in front of them, just like the Oracle in the Matrix. They see the easier choice now, and not the harder path that choice will take them. Typically, the easier choice leads down the rougher path, while the harder choice leads down the happier path. Typically. And sometimes it takes a damn long time to finally see the fruit of your efforts. And yeah, I said typically, cuz really sometimes people get damned lucky and things are just given to them no matter what they do. I've had friends like that, and I hate them for it. K, not really hate them, but you know what I mean. I've worked my ass off for everything I have, and I have...well, almost nothing to show for it, because I still made stupid choices and have fallen to the bottom again, with nothing to help lift me up except my own two legs.




...how did this post end up like this? Oh well...

Leebot

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Black Wind Agent (+600)
  • *
  • Posts: 636
    • View Profile
    • Infophilia
Hajj
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2006, 09:12:08 am »
Quote from: Lord J Esq
Quote from: JossiRossi
And with that piece of sweet irony I give up on this topic.

I just can't win. Either people will argue until doomsday, or they'll get so teh pwn'd that they simply up and leave. Nobody has the class to concede anymore. I can't recall ever having persuaded anybody of anything on the whole Compendium. So, either I've been wrong 100 percent of the time, or people are too stubborn for their own good.

Oh well. Par for the course.


Remember who you're dealing with here, Josh: humans. People don't change their minds; they die off and the next generation takes their place, possibly with different values.

Logically, the only solution is stealing children from their parents and brainwashing them to prevent their parents from doing the same. But, of course they'd have to make that illegal. Bah.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2006, 11:27:50 pm »
Quote from: Mystik3eb
My only problem with your constant push in the direction of "they're wrong and following folly" is that you still don't have anything to prove them wrong. You believe in something, just as they do. They believe they're right, without proof. You believe they're wrong, without proof. It's all the same.

That's a good point. In the spirit of my last post, I'll grant that it's a good point. But it isn't one that I haven't already considered, or am unable to rebut. You want proof...proof is everywhere. Look at what religion has done for us! It has deceived us, turned our own creativity against us, corrupted our power, and led us to do great harm to others and to our world, and especially to ourselves...all because of conflicting beliefs, or beliefs that were just plain rotten to begin with. Religion offers truth, but never the real truth, because the real truth invalidates all religion. Some people say it brings them comfort for a cruel world. I say if they want comfort they should take up hot cocoa.

And look also at what religion has failed to do. Creating "knowledge" inside ourselves and then projecting it onto the universe shields us from true discovery, and therein retards our capacity for meaningful accomplishment. If prayer and piety could trump the power of science and engineering, they certainly would. But they cannot. When your house is on fire, do you put out the flames with a prayer or a fire extinguisher? Religious beliefs produce no tangible goods; plenty of tangible evils.

This is the biggest obstacle that separates pseudo-intellectuals from truly enlightened folks. Many people claim, in their arrogance, that faith-based knowledge is somehow guaranteed to lead to objective truth simply by virtue of their believing it does. Religion is the institutionalized form of this, given airs of credibility by virtue of large memberships. Oh, I grant how nice nice a thought it is to believe that we can simply think our way to the truth. But it's a delusion. And although many people try to live out this idea anyway, preaching their own homemade wisdom based on "absolute truths" that they invented, you might notice that homemade belief systems are a dime a dozen; everyone's is different and people regularly find their absolute truths to be contradictory with one another. So much for absolute truth! Yet there is no universal authority to prohibit people from believing in lies, and so all of this nonsensical claptrap persists down through the generations. But in every generation they are exposed as frauds; you need only look: intuition, superstition, religion...they all fail to achieve what science and engineering accomplish every day: the expansion of human power, and thus the intimation of our legitimacy with respect to absolute truths!

So when it comes to exposing yourself to risky behavior, like participating in an event known for its human stampedes, is it really worthwhile to take such a risk simply to gratify your sense of religious faith? What will it earn you, other than an even deeper slavery to your beliefs? I know you mean well when you say that people's behaviors can be validated by the sincerity of their beliefs, but you're being all lovey-dovey and no substance. Bad behaviors based upon the sincerity of one's convictions are still bad behaviors.

If I have explained myself properly, there is nothing erroneous or logically inconsistent with my position. It simply comes down to whether or not you agree with my principles. That sort of disagreement is perfectly acceptable.

Quote from: Mystik3eb
But people...see the easier choice now, and not the harder path that choice will take them. Typically, the easier choice leads down the rougher path, while the harder choice leads down the happier path. Typically. And sometimes it takes a damn long time to finally see the fruit of your efforts.

It's all true. You're completely right on these counts.

Quote from: Leebot
Logically, the only solution is stealing children from their parents and brainwashing them to prevent their parents from doing the same. But, of course they'd have to make that illegal. Bah.

I'm way ahead of you, man. I came up with the "raise children by the state" idea a long time ago! It's so controversial, though, that I seldom talk about it in places like this. But I think it would be the single best way to solve so many of humanity's problems once and for all. I think we'd be surprised just how easily eradicated many ancient human failings would be, if only we could prevent their transmission from generation to generation.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Hajj
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2006, 11:51:55 pm »
As a ground rule of my leadership, I am never going to identify with either side of the argument, and neither will I ever speak on behalf of each side. You can infer my beliefs how you wish.

I do feel a need to address something, however. This quantification of human worth just does not sit well with me (oh lord, my views are unrefined and corrugated; I am unwashed in my rhetoric and philosophical practices; woe be my lack of intellectual ardor). Consider that we can trade Mozart's life for the lives of 200 men who would have otherwise lived until 50 years of age and had families had they not been hypothetically killed at an early age.

Would you make the trade?

It seems solip..sist in nature to affirm such a trade. It seems contrary to trade 200 human conscious beings for one. Granted, if the trade meant these 200 people were never born, then perhaps it works out. But it seems difficult to say that lives are expendable by quantificable quality. These men would have full lives; they would know fear, revenge, and sorrow, and they would triump with the birth of their children and feel joy in old age. Their IQs would be naught but 3/5 of Mozart's; their lives may be meaningless, and they may never understand the modern world or think outside their cultural box. But they are alive, yes? They have had their chances to better themselves and experience the full realm of human existence, yes?

My argument is not going to be coherent from this point on due to debate being a rusty tool in my armament; I still feel that potential has some worth. We decry the death of a potentially amazing project or work of art, yes? Shouldn't some of this be extended to humanity? A poor Indian boy may be facing gargantuan odds, but in the event that he becomes a good leader over his village, benefits someone in the world, or leaves another good legacy, then it has been a good life. I would rather esteem and affirm potential than instate a policy of guilty of worthlessness until proven innocent. I suppose this is rooted in my belief that humanity as a whole must pick its entire, overweight and diseased body up and help itself -- rather than a small elite shoot off into the stars and leave everyone else to "catch up with us if you can". It seems a courageous and noble thing to assist in the education and assistance of these potentiates rather than leave them to plow their own, backward road. I'm not saying this as a pure, naive ideologue; I would not agree if we removed a backward country's government only to allow its citizens to establish an even worse regime. But barring help, we can at least believe in them and ourselves.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 03:59:46 am by ZeaLitY »

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Hajj
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2006, 11:59:49 pm »
I'd like to point out here that one of the differences between a Motzart and Zeality's African villagers is that Motzart will benefit me; the villagers will not. That is why people may assign more weight to the life of a Motzart; they benefit from it. But then it becomes cyclical...how much weight should my vote have? Well, that depends on who's voting, how I'll benefit or not benefit them...

That's the trouble with the notion of all people being equal though; it's fundamentally false, at least at an individual level. Motzart, we can assume, is a vastly supperior composer of music to those villagers. And Western society places a good deal of "weight" on that particular skill, so Motzart comes out looking "superior". Of course, throw Motzart into the village, especially if they are nomadic herdsman or hunter gatherer's, and suddenly he's the "inferior" one, because Motzart wouldn't offer much as a hunter. Suddenly 50 Motzarts are less valuable than one African villager. All because of a change of social context.

So who is really superior? Impossible to say, and society may say it has an answer, but it's hardly objective or worthwhile, because repetition is not justificiation, and social custom is merely that: repetition.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2006, 02:46:36 am »
On the one hand, ZeaLitY, you're right that we should nurture human potential. That's what a well-run society is for. On the other hand, there's no law that says humanity will be a failure if the weak perish all on their own.

We're getting somewhat away from the discussion of how silly it is to take part in herd actions. JossiRossi is the one who mistakenly introduced this line of discussion into the conversation. When I said people's lives are inherently worthless until proven otherwise, I was not implying (as he assumed) that we ought to go about letting people suffer and die. Obviously I would never believe something so patently stupid, and so utterly antithetical to my philosophy. By that logic, the human race would die out in no time.

What I meant by "worth" is the connotation of human potential in terms of its realization. I value potential at least as much as anyone else on the Compendium--it's one of the things that helps me to be such an optimist despite living in a world brimming with fools. And it is precisely because I think so highly of our potential as a species and as individuals that I hate to see it when people waste their lives by never living up to what they could truly accomplish. But what makes the folly an outright crime is that we as a society are obsessed with rewarding people unduly. In effect, lest we be seen as less than egalitarian, we reward people for their failures. We give budding losers a free pass, by telling them they've done well, telling them there's no wrong answer, telling them they're just as right as the next person. We destroy our humanity by doing this! If a person fails and is praised for it, they will fail again. They will make a habit of failure. Yet we persist in this ridiculous notion that all people are equal. Everyone wins a trophy.

Bullshit.

If I tell you that you are an inherently precious being, that your life has great meaning and worth no matter who you are or what you have undertaken, what am I really telling you? I am telling you that further attempts at greater self-growth and discovery are optional. Optional! That's disgusting! That's like saying humanity is perfect already, and we needn't trouble ourselves with further attempts at improvement. It is the height of evil arrogance and willful ignorance.

So, really, the only alternative is to deny such a claim. And that means accepting that people are not inherently precious; that we are not born with innate worth. Yet then we have no choice but to conclude that worth must be earned!

Which is precisely what I said.

Make no mistake. Potential and worth are not interchangeable, at least by my usage. They both have "worth," in the sense of evaluating human merit, and if my meaning was too subtle for some people, I apologize. The difference between the two concepts is that potential is what we can become, and worth is what we have already become. I used the word "worthless" to address our tendency to inure ourselves to failure and ineptitude, our tendency to abandon our spark of humanity and turn away from the glory road. If we do not strive to achieve our ambitions, then, no matter how much potential we had, or still have, then worthless is exactly what we are. Insomuch as we live in a corporeal world, potential and achievemnt are two entirely different entities. Potential should always be nurtured. And worth should never be given freely; but only earned.

Mystik3eb

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1022
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/dfscanl/index.html
Hajj
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2006, 02:59:02 am »
Josh, your post is both very inspiring and very offensive at the same time, depending on who reads it. I found it inspiring, personally, but I'm one who's lived through life wanting to discover everything for himself and not have it handed to him, one who's always aspired for higher achievements than the typicality. When others said "Don't expect much", I said "I'm going for it"...course, I'm still in the process of beginning to "go for it", but I don't plan on giving up until I'm on the streets with no friends, no connections, and nothing. I wanna make the most outta my life. I want to create my own worth. And I HATE when people get angry when they're not awarded for living less than they should.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Hajj
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2006, 11:32:58 pm »
Umm...well hello...
It really wasn't the governments fault. It was the peoples. According to my mum during the jamarat(stone throwing) some accidentally dropped a bag from the second floor unto ground and everyone got scared leading to a stampede. Well, the saudis did put up lots of signs, pamphlets and commercials (in all languages of course) discouraging luggage. Also, many people are crazy. They thing the pillars (now walls) are the real satan and throw massive rocks and sandals and shit (not literally) at it. Yeah, I saw it. Plus, because the Prophet did it at a certain time during the day, and god doesn't like it (but its not sinful) to do it another, many people rush to do it at a certain time. Our group however was smart and did it at the least crowded time. But hey, most people of the red group (Australia, Europe, America, Turkey) were smart and didn't do stupid things like mass groups which hindered process (save for Turkey). When I went to kiss the Black Rock (religious zeal I guess  :) ) damn people made me seem like I was dying due to pressure. I was close to kissing it but I didn't want to die so I just touched it. At the Prophets Grave people were trying to push other people to kiss and touch the grill, and stopping to make prayers and crying (while stopping) at it. I and even all the guards were telling them to move and stuff, because they were all actually sinful!

So apart from the bad stuff, it was good. Quite fun actually. Staying with random people in tents, sleeping in the mountainous plain in the open (which was pretty freaky due to [unintentionally of course] the likeness to one of the holocaust marches, because you could see everyone walking in a line with a light from a bus behind them with the siren of an ambulance or police), even the walk to Mina (tents) from Mecca (Makkah) which took 6 hours (we walked because the jam was too much and the bus was to stuffy) because the guy, who was the chef at our hotel, who we were following got lost even though we were telling him we were actually walking back to Mecca. And he later told us when he went before he got lost! And also the eleven kilometre trip from Mina to Mecca on bus which took use...eleven hours because a)we had another group b)jams c)a very long jam in which we didn't move an inch for three hours d) the guy was from syria so he got lost. But Madina was more fun. The people were friendly (so was Mecca, but most of those people were foreign people) and the food was good and the place was really nice.

Oh, and did you here about the hotel collapsing with the people from Nigeria and India?

EDIT: To Josh 1) Hajj is compulsory for any Muslim physically and mentally and financially capable of doing so
2) Its not like you to judge people based on post count

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2006, 12:41:51 am »
Its good to have you back, BZ.

Tonjevic

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 328
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2006, 03:03:06 am »
I concur with that sentiment. Welcome back! Glad you have a good time there.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Hajj
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2006, 11:12:36 pm »
Welcome back, Z! Glad you had a meaningful experience.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Hajj
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2006, 11:45:37 pm »
I sure did. Thank you all. School 5 more days. Shit.