Author Topic: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals  (Read 2549 times)

saridon

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2006, 10:02:17 am »
@ daniel true we are not our fathers and mothers obviously but just because they were the ones who did it and not us it dosnt free us from the responsibility of it

@ RD yes all humans should get human rights but who should be the ones to enforce and decide them?
and would you live being hated all your life by everyone you knew being a outsider and probably alone for the rest of your life rather than dying?

besides as stated in the OP this is a 'primitive' tribe and since when has introducing forgien cultures into one only developing with probably little knowladge of the world outside of what they know ever worked out for the better?

im all for human rights but when it involves interfrearing with the beliefs and customs of another culture who dont have much or anything to do with the people who created them i dont see it as all that great. not everyone can get the ideal future or outcome in a situation you always have someone who gets the short end, unfortunatly this kid was one of them and thats tough.

Exodus

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2006, 04:27:03 pm »
@ daniel true we are not our fathers and mothers obviously but just because they were the ones who did it and not us it dosnt free us from the responsibility of it

@ RD yes all humans should get human rights but who should be the ones to enforce and decide them?
and would you live being hated all your life by everyone you knew being a outsider and probably alone for the rest of your life rather than dying?

besides as stated in the OP this is a 'primitive' tribe and since when has introducing forgien cultures into one only developing with probably little knowladge of the world outside of what they know ever worked out for the better?

im all for human rights but when it involves interfrearing with the beliefs and customs of another culture who dont have much or anything to do with the people who created them i dont see it as all that great. not everyone can get the ideal future or outcome in a situation you always have someone who gets the short end, unfortunatly this kid was one of them and thats tough.

What you're implying is that we should stand by and let a young male die on ridiculous charges because his own people are too superstitious to use common sense. Something that has always bothered me is how quickly people are to judge against a person without even bothering to place themselves in said person's shoes.

For instance, a girl here, only 15, is being held on murder, driving without a license, and driving without insurance. What did she do? She lost control of the car and hit an 11-year-old whom was mowing his lawn. The majority of people I talked to said this punishment was not harsh enough, as she would spend only 3  years in juvenile detention and be released. I brought up two points to these people:

1. Do you honestly believe that girl had the intention of running the boy over? She was 15 and did not know how to drive. What makes you believe she intended to cause any harm to anybody at all? At the most this girl should be receiving reckless endangerment of others and involuntary manslaughter, and yet she faces much more serious charges.

2. This girl's life is now ruined. So she gets out of juvenile services. What then? Eight to ten at Mickey-D's? Living with her mother? This was not premeditated assault on the boy. She made one mistake, and people refuse to forgive her for this, despite knowing that if they were in her shoes, they would want to be forgiven.

All of that aside, I feel that your sentiments that we should let one child suffer on such moronic claims as witchcraft because it is the culture of the accuser to be very rash and poorly thought out.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 06:26:04 pm »
Cultures need to be infringed upon sometimes, within or without. There is a culture of sexism in this world, just as there are backwards cultures in more regional areas. If we found a tribe of amazingly undiscovered Native Americans doing the same thing on United States soil, you bet we'd kick all their asses and put a stop to it. Blindly adhering to tradition or culture is a path of failure. It's like Bruce Lee demonstrated. Thousands of years ago, someone had a good idea about how to do something, like Hammarubi. However, hundreds of years of blind obeyance have perverted that idea into rigid gospel that cannot be broken and is trusted as the ultimate authority. You have to find your own way. These cannibals need to get with the program (that is, if any sovereign country is willing to care enough to bring down the banhammer on them).

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2006, 10:44:27 pm »
@ daniel true we are not our fathers and mothers obviously but just because they were the ones who did it and not us it dosnt free us from the responsibility of it

Yes it does. To hold one person responsible for another persons acts is unjust in the extreme. If your parents murdered someone, but then died of natural causes, should you be held acocuntable for the murder? Of course not.

@ RD yes all humans should get human rights but who should be the ones to enforce and decide them?
and would you live being hated all your life by everyone you knew being a outsider and probably alone for the rest of your life rather than dying?

besides as stated in the OP this is a 'primitive' tribe and since when has introducing forgien cultures into one only developing with probably little knowladge of the world outside of what they know ever worked out for the better?

im all for human rights but when it involves interfrearing with the beliefs and customs of another culture who dont have much or anything to do with the people who created them i dont see it as all that great. not everyone can get the ideal future or outcome in a situation you always have someone who gets the short end, unfortunatly this kid was one of them and thats tough.

It is not for you to decide that this child would be better dead than alive. No one is saying to obliterate this culture, or to prostelytize. Hell, the best solution may be to just pull this kid from that society into a foster home in the more dominant civilization. Beliefs and customs do not justify cruelty, least of all to the innocent, least of all out of ignorance.

saridon

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 06:41:07 am »
@ daniel true we are not our fathers and mothers obviously but just because they were the ones who did it and not us it dosnt free us from the responsibility of it

Yes it does. To hold one person responsible for another persons acts is unjust in the extreme. If your parents murdered someone, but then died of natural causes, should you be held acocuntable for the murder? Of course not.
that would be on a small scale then yes it would be stupid to, but if your parents went and murdered someone unless it was a completly random act isnt it somewhat your fault for not trying to stop them from doing somthing like this?

@ RD yes all humans should get human rights but who should be the ones to enforce and decide them?
and would you live being hated all your life by everyone you knew being a outsider and probably alone for the rest of your life rather than dying?

besides as stated in the OP this is a 'primitive' tribe and since when has introducing forgien cultures into one only developing with probably little knowladge of the world outside of what they know ever worked out for the better?

im all for human rights but when it involves interfrearing with the beliefs and customs of another culture who dont have much or anything to do with the people who created them i dont see it as all that great. not everyone can get the ideal future or outcome in a situation you always have someone who gets the short end, unfortunatly this kid was one of them and thats tough.

It is not for you to decide that this child would be better dead than alive. No one is saying to obliterate this culture, or to prostelytize. Hell, the best solution may be to just pull this kid from that society into a foster home in the more dominant civilization. Beliefs and customs do not justify cruelty, least of all to the innocent, least of all out of ignorance.

sure its  not for me to decidie whether he would be better dead or alive i simply stated my opinion on that matter. and to tell them that their beliefs are wrong and that the kid is innocent do you really think that they would belive that? put yourself in the position they're going through if someone told you all your beliefs were wrong would you belive them without question?

people die all the time it literally happens at least once every minute worldwide just cause one more is going to die does it give reason to screw around with a cultures beliefs  to save one kid when the effort and money being put into somthing like this for travel, etc for the press and others could be used to give enough food to some other kids in another country to keep them alive for a good few years, what puts him above them?
ive seen hundreds of people die in wars on the same basis as this one culture did not agree with the beliefs as another yet those people who outnumber this kind by a huge margin get no where near the amount of attention and help as this kid is getting.
war start because of disagreements maybe if we allowed ourselves to let another culture do things their way regardless of whether someone else thinks they're right or wrong to do it humanity wouldnt be so fucked up.

and calling them ignorant for beliving in something we all at one point did to is harsh in my opinion we  learn from our mistakes and develop because of it.
and as for wanting the kid to live because its unjust or cruel to lit him die so what we slaugnter thousands of animals every year yet we being animals ourselves dont care this is because we have to so despite the fact that we are ending a few thousand innocent lives we can live with it. this is the same the kid dies the culture eventually learns that they might be wrong and because of the things commited in their past they know what a horrid hing to do it is thus they develop the kids death is just part of this proccess.

not everyone can live because  their innocent or didnt do anything somtimes it just happens and we deal with it because thats just how it is sure we can prevent a few cases but ultimatly we cant do crap about it.

GavenDrake

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 07:56:02 pm »
we all know that customs and beliefs are really hard to break..maybe about 50 years from now democracy might be obsulete and people may think its stupid....but the point is, we as the once who understand it is wrong. We should set an example that it is wrong, by our deeds..if tribe people would see us killing each other just for a piece of paper that has a printed head on it well why would they think of being one of us in the first place....we may think it is stupid for them to inherit crime but on their point of view maybe it is, and maybe their way of life is comfortable that way..come to think of it people would take great value of their responsibilities not just for their own sake but for the sake of their children as well.

Now we on the other hand just takes that responsibility for granted....other people would think that by doing a crime? i'll just be in jail anyway......surely you will think twice if your 4 years old son would also suffer the same faith if you do it.....

The point is, it just work for them. same point with canibalism, culture is preserved due to community success..if thier community is thriving due to canibalism then beat it...but come to think of it, because of our communty and our way of life, we are here with buildings and technology..while those tribe people are there livin up in small forest trying to survive with scraps of wildlife left in the wilderness...sooner or later we will be fed up coz of them killing wildlife that someday will be so important to us...we may end up killing them to preserv our own end...

our way of life is our rate of survival...if its working then good...remember that by them killing that child they are condemding their future.and by doing that, sooner or later they will all die out and no one will be left to carry out their own culture......so there...

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2006, 10:55:01 pm »
that would be on a small scale then yes it would be stupid to, but if your parents went and murdered someone unless it was a completly random act isnt it somewhat your fault for not trying to stop them from doing somthing like this?

No, of course it isn't. That's a dangerous and ridiculous precedent. You are responsible for your own actions, and the actions of those acting under your orders. Failing to prevent a crime is not the same as commiting that crime. If that were the case, all people would be equally guilty of every crime that has ever been committed. That's obviously not the case.

sure its  not for me to decidie whether he would be better dead or alive i simply stated my opinion on that matter. and to tell them that their beliefs are wrong and that the kid is innocent do you really think that they would belive that? put yourself in the position they're going through if someone told you all your beliefs were wrong would you belive them without question?

It doesn't matter if they believe it or not. Not all beliefs are equal. If you believe that there is no such thing as gravity, I have no need to respect that opinion simply because it is what you believe. It is not an unjust offense, if you are about to step off a cliff, for me to say that gravity will pull you to a grizzly death should you take that step. Belief is not a measure of accuracy, and knowledge must trump belief. I don't expect overnight cultural change to be easy. That's why I suggested merely pulling the kid out of that society.

people die all the time it literally happens at least once every minute worldwide just cause one more is going to die does it give reason to screw around with a cultures beliefs  to save one kid when the effort and money being put into somthing like this for travel, etc for the press and others could be used to give enough food to some other kids in another country to keep them alive for a good few years, what puts him above them?
ive seen hundreds of people die in wars on the same basis as this one culture did not agree with the beliefs as another yet those people who outnumber this kind by a huge margin get no where near the amount of attention and help as this kid is getting.
war start because of disagreements maybe if we allowed ourselves to let another culture do things their way regardless of whether someone else thinks they're right or wrong to do it humanity wouldnt be so fucked up.

Eating children because of superstition is fucked up. An end to the practice would make humanity less fucked up. You say that people are dying all the time. This is true. Does that mean that saving lives in the mean time is not valuable? By your way of thinking, the whole human race should just commit suicide right now, since we're all gonna die anyway. It is certainly worth saving this one kid with an unjust death approaching him, and that doesn't make it any less worthwhile to bring food to starving children elsewhere. But it's not zero sum, and that's not what you are proposing. You didn't say "Don't save this kid, save these 100 kids instead." What you have said amounts to "Let this innocent child die, because his people are superstitious and unjust."

and calling them ignorant for beliving in something we all at one point did to is harsh in my opinion we  learn from our mistakes and develop because of it.

The key here is "learn from our mistakes". We do indeed. Because we've learned from this mistake, we have the ability to prevent others from making it. That is the whole point of societies, so that you can learn from past mistakes of many prior generations and people, and thus not have to make them yourself. This is what intervening in this case would be, preventing someone else from making a mistake that others had made in the past. You say that we are responsible for crimes we allow to happen. This injustice would be a mistake, by your logic, are we not bound to interfere?

and as for wanting the kid to live because its unjust or cruel to lit him die so what we slaugnter thousands of animals every year yet we being animals ourselves dont care this is because we have to so despite the fact that we are ending a few thousand innocent lives we can live with it. this is the same the kid dies the culture eventually learns that they might be wrong and because of the things commited in their past they know what a horrid hing to do it is thus they develop the kids death is just part of this proccess.

This is irrelevant. They are not killing the child because they must eat him to survive, they are killing him because they are ignorant and unjust. The relationship between predator and prey is not analagous to the relationship between executioner and condemned.

not everyone can live because  their innocent or didnt do anything somtimes it just happens and we deal with it because thats just how it is sure we can prevent a few cases but ultimatly we cant do crap about it.

So you would give in to the evil, ignorant, and unjust of the world? If people with that mind set ran the world, they would soon find themselves with no world to run, nor any life with which to run it.

saridon

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 04:13:53 am »
hmm "Eating children because of superstition is fucked up. An end to the practice would make humanity less fucked up" according to the OP this appears to be more of a cultural thing and eatin gpeople is fucked up hardly we are animals plenty of other animals eat their own kind.

"You say that we are responsible for crimes we allow to happen. This injustice would be a mistake, by your logic, are we not bound to interfere?"

at certain levels yes and others no, if you were to see your parents go out obvioulsy to kill someone shouldnt you try and stop them? but if someone was going to die and you and everybody else knew for a reason no matter how stupiod and you had nothing to do with them at all except you thought the reason he was dying was stupid why interfere?

"knowledge must trump belief"

so why not prove them that he didnt do it instead of just taking the kid out of there? which is what seems to be happening

"It is certainly worth saving this one kid with an unjust death approaching him, and that doesn't make it any less worthwhile to bring food to starving children elsewhere."

true but why spend a few thousand on the 1 kid in plane tickets, etc for all the things the media and goverments would spend to get him out of there or do a story on it, when that much money could potentially save alot more kids with a better chance to survive.

"hey are killing him because they are ignorant and unjust."

how are they ignorant if they cant explain certain things so use superstition to fill the gap considering we all do it does this make the whole world ignorant? and unjust they are simply doing what they feel is best for their culture and society? would you keep somthing around that scared the shit out of everybody simply because it would be bad to throw it away?

"So you would give in to the evil, ignorant, and unjust of the world? If people with that mind set ran the world, they would soon find themselves with no world to run, nor any life with which to run it."
no not at all things just happen wether we want it to or not and people should just accept that, sometimes you can make a difference and thats good but sometimes you just have to know when to step down and let things run there course.

im not so much against the saving of this kid as i am against the priciple of it the way they seem to go about this is just doing what they think will produce the best outcoem without expalining or proving it to those affected by it.




Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2006, 04:38:50 am »
hmm "Eating children because of superstition is fucked up. An end to the practice would make humanity less fucked up" according to the OP this appears to be more of a cultural thing and eatin gpeople is fucked up hardly we are animals plenty of other animals eat their own kind.

It's not that they are eating him that is my problem. It's that they are murdering him for a murder they can't prove he committed, which they assumed he performed with actions that are not possible. Cannibalism in of itself is not something that would call for intervention.

"You say that we are responsible for crimes we allow to happen. This injustice would be a mistake, by your logic, are we not bound to interfere?"

at certain levels yes and others no, if you were to see your parents go out obvioulsy to kill someone shouldnt you try and stop them? but if someone was going to die and you and everybody else knew for a reason no matter how stupiod and you had nothing to do with them at all except you thought the reason he was dying was stupid why interfere?

These people are obviously going to kill this kid. Shouldn't others then interfere? You aren't making a meanigful distinction here.

"knowledge must trump belief"

so why not prove them that he didnt do it instead of just taking the kid out of there? which is what seems to be happening

Are you familiar with the notion of cognitive dissonance? People will reject factual evidence that their beliefs are impossible and wrong. It's not a simple matter of saying "Hey, there's no such thing as magic, so the kid couldn't have used it."

"It is certainly worth saving this one kid with an unjust death approaching him, and that doesn't make it any less worthwhile to bring food to starving children elsewhere."

true but why spend a few thousand on the 1 kid in plane tickets, etc for all the things the media and goverments would spend to get him out of there or do a story on it, when that much money could potentially save alot more kids with a better chance to survive.

This one child has a better chance of survival than starving kids. He is, for all we know, healthy and fit. Just getting him in to a better environment would instantly remove the mortal peril from his life. But this is irrelevant. Efforts should be made to save them all.

"hey are killing him because they are ignorant and unjust."

how are they ignorant if they cant explain certain things so use superstition to fill the gap considering we all do it does this make the whole world ignorant? and unjust they are simply doing what they feel is best for their culture and society? would you keep somthing around that scared the shit out of everybody simply because it would be bad to throw it away?

Ignorance is the state of lacking knowledge. They are by definition ignorant of the things they can't explain. That they use the god of the gaps to fill in the blanks isn't a removal of ignorance, if anything, it is an ingraining of ignorance, since before they simply didn't not know what is right, but now they "know" something that is false. This puts them even farther from knowledge. And not all people are swayed by the god of the gaps. Many accept that there are certain things they do not yet understand, and do not settle for any old explanation, least of all one that is not testable, and not consistent with easily observable reality. And even if everyone else had these beliefs, it would not make them just. Repition is not justification.

"So you would give in to the evil, ignorant, and unjust of the world? If people with that mind set ran the world, they would soon find themselves with no world to run, nor any life with which to run it."
no not at all things just happen wether we want it to or not and people should just accept that, sometimes you can make a difference and thats good but sometimes you just have to know when to step down and let things run there course.

im not so much against the saving of this kid as i am against the priciple of it the way they seem to go about this is just doing what they think will produce the best outcoem without expalining or proving it to those affected by it.

Fatalism, huh? See, you are in fact, just giving up the world. Saying that things just happen and to accept them is an attempt to absolve yourself of your own life. But tell me, what principle is it that presents the stumbling block for you to not support a wrongly condemned child's life being saved?




[/quote]

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2006, 05:18:20 am »
Wow, I'm suprised someone is actually saying that stuff. WTF Saridon, are you crazy? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you said that we should interfere if our parents were going to kill someone, but not when a tribe is? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Everything else, RD is right. Absolutely. Get over this bullshit ideology that everything is opinion. Like he said, if I said gravity didn't exist, could I justify it with opinion? NO.

I never thought it'd be more of a discussion about the child, but more of what the media did.

saridon

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 10:45:33 am »
Wow, I'm suprised someone is actually saying that stuff. WTF Saridon, are you crazy? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you said that we should interfere if our parents were going to kill someone, but not when a tribe is? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Everything else, RD is right. Absolutely. Get over this bullshit ideology that everything is opinion. Like he said, if I said gravity didn't exist, could I justify it with opinion? NO.

I never thought it'd be more of a discussion about the child, but more of what the media did.

its the whole idea that people think they have the right to fuck around with other peoples beliefs not caring about the impacts it could have on them as long as THEY think their doing the right thing. everybody has ways of dealing with things right or wrong and for the media to shit themselves over somthing like this that has happened thousands of times before and go around and try to screw with them disgusts me its not that i feel its the right thing to do sure the kids got a life ahead of him but sometimes people die and its just part of life it happens we get over it having your beliefs fucked around  with is alot harder to do so.

but meh who cares in the  end it may just be cause im synical or i simply dont care so much about good and bad values because they always exist perfection is a impossible thing everythink screwes up at somepoint or another
or perhaps its just because im tired of people thinking they're superiour fucking around with someone else because they think its right without caring how it affects other people.

and i never implyed everything is opinion you have to be realistic and repecting anoters beliefs is somthing one shouldn't abide by if it can be obviously proved that thhey're wrong.

as for the media screw them all they care about is the story they get and ratings alot of them dont care about what happened.

my views are simple the kid dies and his tribes happy that they feel they're no longer at risk
the US goes and bombs a few cites and is happy that they dont feel threatend anymore
terrorists go and blow shit up to get back for people bombing them

it happens wether we like it or not and we deal with it the perfectionist veiw that we can solve every little problem is a load of crap.

but hey thats my opinion you can say yours and ill respect that thats your veiw usually only arguing over somthing out of bordom or annoyance about contradiction.

this case it was probably boredom but RD once last thing you proposed removing the kid and putting him into a foster home while better than death life like that can be pretty screwed up we had one guy in australia who basically lost ties with our country and thus we didnt want him (much like the tribe dosnt want the kid) he was stranded alone in a country he couldnt speak the languae of (once again i see similaritys) he said he had nothing and all he could do was wait to die now think of the kid he just lost his parents probably going through trauma i doubt he speaks english yet this idea of shoving him in a place he dosnt know where he knows no one and can even talk to them which you think is a good plan sounds fucked up to me.

i look at things not in what is happening but the effects things will cause which is the reason i dont screw so many things up i think about what would happen if i did somthing not the immidient thing itself

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Challenge On Morality: The Cannibals
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2006, 03:14:23 am »
There's a limit to how much you should tolerate someone elses belief. If a cult came to your family to kill your mum because she is a woman, would you tolerate their beliefs? If yes, go to psychiatrist.