Author Topic: Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep  (Read 6115 times)

XchrononetX

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Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2004, 02:15:28 pm »
Likewise. I really like intelligent conversation just a bit too much :). Yeah, I think it is in the best interest of not just you or me, but the entire CT net community to strive for a stronger sense of reason and logic, because the game itself thrives off the concept. Also, a good game deserves a good community, but a wonderful intelligent game like CT deserves a wonderful intelligent community!

Leebot

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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2004, 12:49:04 pm »
Okay, back to the topic...

How about this theory: The Sun Keep is not an island in the traditional sense (mountain emerging from the ocean floor), at least not anymore. Rather, it is floating on the surface of the ocean, and the power of the Sun Stone keeps it moving so that it is always under the sun.

Support:

-Robo says the Sun Keep receives sunlight 24 hours a day, the only ways this is possible are for it to be at a pole or for it to be moving.

-The Sun Keep was floating in the air during the Zeal era. Afterwards, it's not likely it would reconnect to the ocean floor (at least, not in a mere 13,000 years). The fact that it is accessible after Zeal crashes implies that it is floating on the ocean surface.

-The Sun Stone kept all of Zeal floating in the air. The Sun Keep is the source of the Sun Stone's power (indirectly), so it may be able to keep itself floating on water, and possibly moving around.

-Sunlight is seen coming directly down in the Sun Keep.

Problems:

-The Sun Keep would have to be moving very fast to stay under the sun, unless it were close to a pole (in which case the sunlight would be entering at an angle).

-The Sun Keep isn't raised before ~12,000 BC, so there's less evidence for why it would be floating then.

-The Sun Keep is always seen at the same place (explanable, if by video game mechanics it's always, say, noon)

It's also possible the Sun Keep is floating at or near a pole, and that sunlight enters a hole at the top, and is either refracted/reflected in by a natural crystal formation, or sucked in by magic. This takes care of two of the problems. Of course, there's no proof for this aspect of my theory, except that there's little else that supports the facts.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2004, 01:54:36 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
-The Sun Keep was floating in the air during the Zeal era. Afterwards, it's not likely it would reconnect to the ocean floor (at least, not in a mere 13,000 years). The fact that it is accessible after Zeal crashes implies that it is floating on the ocean surface.

-The Sun Keep isn't raised before ~12,000 BC, so there's less evidence for why it would be floating then.


The Sun Palace, the place where the Sun Stone was stored, located to the west of the main Zeal continent, was floating in 12000 BC.  After the fall of Zeal, it was buried until after the Day of Lavos.

The Sun Keep, where the Sun Stone was recharged, was present at the same location on the map during each time period.

Jikkuryuu

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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2004, 01:15:14 pm »
I don't know if this question deserves it's own topic or not, but here goes: "What happened to the Sun Stone!?"
It is used in the sun shades, wondershot, rainbow, and prism specs and still had enough power to be used for fireworks (how could a man of science abuse such a precious stone by whacking it like an ape?). There is no indication that it ran out of power after that except that no one mentions it.
Maybe it just gets used to heat Guardia castle in winter or something. A more justifiable use of it though might be to forge the Einlanzer. Does CC mention what the Einlanzer is made of?

On a completely unrelated and humorous note; when I defeated the Rust Tyrano and returned to the castle to ask for help Queen Leene begged the king to agree (rough quote): "Please help them, for Magus". He was leading my party at the time.

Radical_Dreamer

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Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2004, 07:14:54 pm »
As long as it can bask in the sun, the Sun Stone will always have power it seems.

Funguwari

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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2004, 04:18:04 pm »
/laugh

There is nothing more entertaining than someone who thinks they're smart... and really isn't.

Seriously, Continental Drift Theory isn't correct.

Plate Techtonics people...

"Hey I learned something in Science class called Continental Drift...! Let me use it on a forum so people would think I'm smart! And then I'll pull out my Webster's dictionary and make people think I'm in college! I'll be so cool!"

"Why isn't Sun Keep exposed to the Continental Drift?"

Here's your answer:

Because Continental Drift is wrong, Plate Techtonics is right... everything stated in the Continental Drift theory has been proven wrong.

Funguwari

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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2004, 04:42:46 pm »
By the way, you people are putting way too much thought into this.

"No way could it be moving that fast!"

"No way could it have floated than hit the ocean floor!"

,etc.

I am so, so sure that the CT development team put this much thought into making this!

"It has to be at pole."

"It can't be at a pole!"

"It has to move fast."

The people who made Chrono Trigger just probally said, "Let's keep it here, let's say it recieves 24 hour sunlight."

I'm so sure that there would be a theory, and all this crap.

If they put that much thought into it, the game would probally STILL be in development, seriously, every single word in this game has some sort of theory behind it.

Now here's my attempt at being cool among the forum people:

Well, I concur that since Zeal is the center of the universe, and the Sun Keep was near by, it therefore is in the center of the universe. And this universe created isn't bound by the laws of Hellinism!

Did it work?

Okay, well here's me showing what you people what reality is like:

This. Is. A. GAME.

The people who make it aren't going to follow all the rules and laws of the universe.

If they did, these games would still be in development and we still would've never seen a RPG yet.

Nothing is perfect, things slip through the cracks.

They probally just said, "Let's say it recieves 24 hour sunlight." And then you guys go, "Hey, it's impossible, let me state my theory!"

People at CT think, "Whoops, we made a mistake... we would've never thought people would put so much thought into part of the game that didn't matter! Imagine that! People thinking over a island that dosen't move rather than what is in the island."

Here it is folks:

This is a game, it isn't real. It dosen't have to obey all the "rules". If it did... as I said before, RPGs would've never been released.

Also, this is a fake world, there is no Porre, etc. in real life, why should we follow real life's laws when talking about a game.

Crap, this may be the only planet in the whole universe in this game; however, it's not like that in real life.

And how would you be able to apply these real life laws to a planet that dosen't exist in a universe that dosen't exist?! Do you know all the details about this fake planet to substitue for things in real life's equations?

Seriously people.

These fake areas don't need real life laws.

This is also a "magical" world which was created by the CT development team... maybe the Sun Keep/Palace/whatever stays there and recieves the sun through magic!

Light always shines there no matter what, the magical force inside draws the light to it, even when it's dark all over the world because of magic... we are PLAYING "inside" a magical universe now, aren't we?

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2004, 05:01:31 pm »
...It was nonetheless a legitimate question, that I notwithstanding tried to answer in the beginning of this thread. I proposed it was connected solidly to the core of the planet itself somehow.

Ramsus

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Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2004, 05:15:46 pm »
Quote from: Funguwari
/laugh

There is nothing more entertaining than someone who thinks they're smart... and really isn't.

Seriously, Continental Drift Theory isn't correct.

Plate Techtonics people...

"Hey I learned something in Science class called Continental Drift...! Let me use it on a forum so people would think I'm smart! And then I'll pull out my Webster's dictionary and make people think I'm in college! I'll be so cool!"

"Why isn't Sun Keep exposed to the Continental Drift?"

Here's your answer:

Because Continental Drift is wrong, Plate Techtonics is right... everything stated in the Continental Drift theory has been proven wrong.


Mind explaining how continental drift is wrong, and plate tectonics is right? All of the material I've read claims plate tectonics doesn't conflict with continental drift at all, but instead often cite plate tectonics as the most probable mechanism through which continental drift takes place.

As far as you comments on it just being a game, I'm sure everyone here already knows that. There's been plenty of discussion on the topic, so you don't have to rant about it every time you see people overanalyzing the game.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2004, 05:31:31 pm »
Quote from: Young Man in Zeal
That's the Sun Keep you see on the
southern continent. A Sun Stone, once
the source of this world's power, was
kept there.

But when we began using our new
energy source, it was sealed up just
like the north palace.

They claim we don't need the energy
of this tired, old planet.

The Sun Stone is powered by the energy of the planet.

To Funguwari and others of his ilk:  The Chrono series contains three exquisite works of art and we will dissect and analyze them like any volume of literature as is our pleasure.

Funguwari

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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2004, 03:10:25 pm »
To Funguwari and others of his ilk: The Chrono series contains three exquisite works of art and we will dissect and analyze them like any volume of literature as is our pleasure.

Well you're right it seems.

I never really thought of it as art.

I guess I understand the story, the game, and the people who play it (and discuss it this deeply) now that I see it like that.

You're right.

ZeaLitY

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Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2006, 04:25:57 pm »
Inquiry

What is the origin of the Sun Stone and its history?

Keep in mind while reading these theories that the Sun Stone was apparently powered up long before 65000000 B.C., as it was found and used extensively by Zeal in 12000 B.C., while the time travelers cannot use it until exactly 65002300 years of charging have passed. That it is absent from the Sun Keep also suggests that it was powered up long before prehistory, and simply wasn't found until the founding fathers of Zeal located it.

Theories

Planetary Connection

See [[Sun Keep (Origin of)]], Planetary / Magical Connection. The Sun Stone, along with the Sun Keep, could have been a natural formation akin to [[Power Spot]]s. By extension, the Sun Stone could also be a natural formation; it would have been charged up before 65000000 B.C. and then removed from the Sun Keep somehow, where it would have lay dormant for millions of years until found by Zeal and utilized there. Once again, this does not account for the torches in the Sun Keep, but those may have been placed there by the Iokans or Reptites prior to Crono's visiting the area in prehistory. Two other problems plague this theory. Mainly, the formation of a unique "battery" and its lucky placement in a unique "charger" is almost ludicrously coincidental. Secondly, the material the Sun Stone is made out of is not observed anywhere else in the game, suggesting it is completely unique (perhaps engineered by a sentient species).

Complete Mystery / Plot Oversight

Some civilization of group of beings were using the Sun Stone prior to 65000000 B.C. Since nothing corroborates such a claim except a quote by Lucca stating that solar energy was used before Lavos, the Sun Stone was perhaps an oversight by the developers, who didn't realize that by having Crono and his team leave it in the Sun Keep, they precluded the ability for it to be left in the Sun Keep by anyone else to be found by Zeal before 12000 B.C.

Temporal Displacement Mystery

The Sun Stone was created as a way of harnessing the planet's elemental energy by either the Reptites or others, and somehow was displaced in time. This theory is pure, unbridled speculation, sadly.

~

Inquiry

How does the Sun Keep maintain a fixed position in the crust? What is its source of light, which shines eternally? The Sun Keep also does not erode with geological change. How is this accomplished?

Keep in mind while reading these theories that the Sun Stone was apparently powered up long before 65000000 B.C., as it was found and used extensively by Zeal in 12000 B.C., while the time travelers cannot use it until exactly 65002300 years of charging have passed. That it is absent from the Sun Keep also suggests that it was powered up long before prehistory, and simply wasn't found until the founding fathers of Zeal located it.

Theories

Light Source Only

Pole Alignment

The world of the Chrono series, as depicted in the ending, is shown not to have a very tilted axis. Conceivably, a structure at the North Pole could receive constant exposure of sunlight. This theory only attempts to explain the presence of light; the theories below attempt to describe origin, and either use this theory or attribute the light to magic design.

Origin

Reptite Construction

GrayLensman

The Reptites possibly created the Sun Keep. They were fairly advanced, although we don't know much about their technology or understanding of magic, if any. They were able to predict Lavos' fall, however, and Azala could lift boulders with telekinesis. The real question is whether the Reptites used the Sun Stone for power. Some evidence may be inferred from Chrono Cross, in which the Reptite Dimension appears. In that dimension's history, the Reptites lived in close harmony with the planet, utilizing its elemental powers. Back in Zeal, the Sun Stone was identified as a source of elemental, planetary power; it was retired after the Mammon Machine was discovered and the scholars of Zeal decided that the society did not need the energy of a "tired, old planet." The Sun Keep thusly may have been a Reptite experiment, with the Sun Stone being placed in the keep before the Tyrano Lair was destroyed. However, this fails to account for why no Sun Stone (except the one Crono places in the Keep) exists in the Sun Keep for the millions of years after 65000000 B.C. The absence of the Sun Stone in the keep is a fundamental problem with attributing its creation to a known civilization. This may be a developer oversight in the plot.

The question remains how the Reptites were able to anchor the Sun Keep to resist changes in the planet's crust. This all hinges on their level of technology; since they later came to specialize in a symbiotic relationship with the planet in the Reptite Dimension, it is not impossible for them to have had the technology, but the chances are very slim. After all, if they were in possession of these advanced skills, they could have dispatched the Early Humans with ease.

This theory is supported by a note by Lucca, who states that

Lucca: Solar energy was used aeons ago, well before Lavos Energy existed... It might be just the thing we need to defeat Lavos...

Since Lucca uses the words "before Lavos Energy existed", and not "before it was made available", it suggests that the Sun Stone was used before Lavos' came into the picture.

Planetary / Magic Connection

Aitrus, GrayLensman, ZeaLitY

In some form or fashion, the Sun Keep has a very strong connection with the planet, and naturally occurred. This bond is physically strong enough to prevent movement by the keep from continential drift; it also supplies the constant presence of light. It was noted in Chrono Cross that certain "Power Spots" exist on the planet's crust, said to be in close connection with the planet's inherent elemental power. Perhaps the Sun Keep is an extreme case of this type. The sunlight would be a case of elemental power (and keep in mind that elemental in this term refers to real magic, not Dragonian Elements). The actual structure is resistant to geological change in this manner; it may be connected to the planet's core. If someone were able to tap into the core of the earth, they would have access to a tremendous source of energy. The Sun Keep could be a geothermal power plant, with some sort of shaft leading down to the core of the earth. Resting on the shaft through the mantle, the Sun Keep would be unaffected by the pressure of shifting tectonic plates. Whatever mechanisms maintained the power plant could also preserve the appearance of the mountain. Another possibility is that magic is used to extract the power of the sun akin to the way the Mammon Machine takes Lavos's energy. Compare this theory to the one at [[Sun Stone (Origin of)]].

This theory fails to take into account the torches that exist there, suggesting the Sun Keep was built by a sentient race. It is not impossible that the Iokans or Reptites placed them there out of wonderment and worship, however.

Misconceptions

Zeal Creation

A few stipulations discount Zeal's possible role in constructing it. Firstly, the Sun Stone would have been found by Zeal fully powered up, since Zeal obviously did not exist for 65 million years. Secondly, the Sun Keep would have had to have been built with extraordinary foresight; it would be a significant long-term investment unless the scientists of Zeal found a way to place the Sun Stone in history millions of years before 12000 B.C., a tenet with no evidence supporting it. Lastly, this theory is also troublesome when considering that the Sun Stone (and possibly other elemental, planetary artifacts) was responsible for the magic and power of Zeal from its creation until the phasing in of the Mammon Machine. Additionally, instead of placing it in the Sun Keep after its use was precluded by the Mammon machine, the Stone was instead placed in another palace created by Zeal, the Sun Palace, complete with a guardian to prevent its theft. Lastly, the Sun Keep exists in 65000000 B.C., well out of Zeal's reach. Even the Epoch was not complete by the time of Zeal's fall, precluding time travel ability.

~

Inquiry

What is the power of the Sun Stone?

Answer

At the equator, at noon, the sun delivers 950 Watts per meter. Assume the Sun Stone is 0.1 meters in diameter and has 100% efficiency. Then,

Power (absorbed) = (950 Watts/meter) (3.14) (0.05 meters)^2 = 7.46 Watts

Energy = Power * Time

65,013,300 years = 2.05*10^15 seconds

E = (7.46 Watts) (2.05*10^15 seconds) = 1.53*10^16 Joules

One Ton of TNT = 4.184*10^9 Joules

Sun Stone = 3.66 megatons of TNT

A vertically orientated solar collector, situated at the pole, would receive the exact same energy.

If the Sun Keep operates on geothermal energy or absorbs the sun's power directly, the Sun Stone could contain even more energy. And the Zealians gave that up in favor of Lavos. Lucca receives it by the end of the game.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2006, 04:53:39 pm »
Whew, I think I covered everything. This is an incredibly unexplored mystery; I'm going to add the origin of the Sun Stone to the Priority Questions for Masato Kato listing.

What article can we use this in? The Geography one?