That stupid grandfather paradox

[evirus]

If I remember correctly (which I do) the pendant did not react AT ALL when Crono was gated. No sparkle, no shine, no glimmer, no blink. So how did the gate reappear if the pendant didn't give off any energy?

Silent, I think you really need to replay the game.  Crono goes on the telepod first.  The gate isn't opened.  Marle goes on it, and is gated, and they make a big deal about the pendant being involved.  Crono goes and grabs the pendant, and then is similarly gated.

We don't know what all went into making the Gate Key.  It uses principles behind the telepod, yes.  But tell me:  What does the Telepod do?  Teleport people.  What do gates do?  Teleport people, only through time.  Lucca probably was able to find a way to duplicate the reaction the pendant caused.

plus theres the fact that crono could have just pocketed the pendent and not put it on in which case we might not have seen it glow when it was supposed to... only because it was covered by clothing

[Theicedragon]

Thats all i was trying to say. If you was to show that scene of Marle falling in the gate to people who havent played CT or even know what it is, they would still be able to access that the pendant was the key and the focus.

[Zaperking]

If I remember correctly (which I do) the pendant did not react AT ALL when Crono was gated. No sparkle, no shine, no glimmer, no blink. So how did the gate reappear if the pendant didn't give off any energy?

Silent, I think you really need to replay the game.  Crono goes on the telepod first.  The gate isn't opened.  Marle goes on it, and is gated, and they make a big deal about the pendant being involved.  Crono goes and grabs the pendant, and then is similarly gated.

We don't know what all went into making the Gate Key.  It uses principles behind the telepod, yes.  But tell me:  What does the Telepod do?  Teleport people.  What do gates do?  Teleport people, only through time.  Lucca probably was able to find a way to duplicate the reaction the pendant caused.

Hell yeah, what you just said rockd.

[Sentenal]

Zaper agrees with me on something?  Lets mark this day down, its second only to that one time when me and Josh agreed on politics (energy issue)!

[SilentMartyr]

Okay, looks like I'm back to no one believing me. Lots of work to do...

there is a strawman fallacy in your arguement, you quoted the script, placeing emphsis on a portion of a sentance with out taking into consideration the whole sentence, lucca in this sentence is talking about the stability of the gates, not the gates them self. are you sure that she was revealing all that she did? or could it be true that she was shortning what said for the sake of time and lack of technical knowledge of crono and marle?

Did you read the whole quote? She is talking about the gates, not the stability. The statement about thier instability was merely to prove why she needed to make the gate key in the first place. Without it the gates would be too unstable to control, thus making them unuseable.

Now if you are gonna use Lucca's quote's, please use all of them. I'll explain. Quote #1...

Lucca: The way she disappeared...
It couldn't have been the Telepod!

The warp field seemed to be
affected by her pendant...
Now that seems to agree with what I said, but wait! Here's another one....

Lucca: Listen!
I don't know where this machine is
going to send you, but we haven't
any other choice.

TABAN: Won't they both be lost?

Lucca: This is our only hope!
That pendant seems to be the key, so
hang on to it Crono, and brace
yourself

Now, silentmartyr, if I read that right..she implies the pendant was also responsible for the gate opening. Don't pick and choose which quote's you want to ignore.

Okay, so you are going to give more credit to her thoughts right after the event happened over her thoughts after successfully making the gate key and having a better understanding of what had previously occured? Just checking, because normally people tend to favor the more experienced than the less expereinced.

Notice how she continually uses seem and other forms of the word. Never stating that it IS the reason. She never knows for sure that the pendant is really what caused everything to happen. It just appeared to be that way. Huh, kinda seems like a good way to get some teenagers to start a quest to save the planet from death? You know make it appear that the pendant caused the reaction so that Crono would follow Marle. If you are going to try and burn me with quotation make sure you fully read the quotes first before trying to make me look like a jackass.

Silent, I think you really need to replay the game. Crono goes on the telepod first. The gate isn't opened. Marle goes on it, and is gated, and they make a big deal about the pendant being involved. Crono goes and grabs the pendant, and then is similarly gated.

We don't know what all went into making the Gate Key. It uses principles behind the telepod, yes. But tell me: What does the Telepod do? Teleport people. What do gates do? Teleport people, only through time. Lucca probably was able to find a way to duplicate the reaction the pendant caused.

Yea, I did three days ago. I watched the entire scene. Twice. I don't see your point.

So you are telling me that without any knowledge of the pendant at all Lucca made the key based off of the pendants apparent reaction with the telepod. I know Lucca is smart, but c'mon thats a rediculous claim to make. It took her a good amount of time to repair Robo, and that was with some knowledge of robotics (Making Gato). But to make a device that recreates a scenario that you had only witnessed twice and had absolutely no way of studying the apparent catalyst of the reaction in the span of how long it took Crono to find Marle (Which I think is less than it took to fix Robo) seems a bit of a strech for any person.

Thats all i was trying to say. If you was to show that scene of Marle falling in the gate to people who havent played CT or even know what it is, they would still be able to access that the pendant was the key and the focus.

If I showed the scene in Medina where the mystics claim that Magus created Lavos to someone who doesn't know of CT then they would assume that Magus created Lavos. It still doesn't make it right.

[evirus]

Okay, looks like I'm back to no one believing me. Lots of work to do...

there is a strawman fallacy in your arguement, you quoted the script, placeing emphsis on a portion of a sentance with out taking into consideration the whole sentence, lucca in this sentence is talking about the stability of the gates, not the gates them self. are you sure that she was revealing all that she did? or could it be true that she was shortning what said for the sake of time and lack of technical knowledge of crono and marle?

Did you read the whole quote? She is talking about the gates, not the stability. The statement about thier instability was merely to prove why she needed to make the gate key in the first place. Without it the gates would be too unstable to control, thus making them unuseable.

Now if you are gonna use Lucca's quote's, please use all of them. I'll explain. Quote #1...

Lucca: The way she disappeared...
It couldn't have been the Telepod!

The warp field seemed to be
affected by her pendant...
Now that seems to agree with what I said, but wait! Here's another one....

Lucca: Listen!
I don't know where this machine is
going to send you, but we haven't
any other choice.

TABAN: Won't they both be lost?

Lucca: This is our only hope!
That pendant seems to be the key, so
hang on to it Crono, and brace
yourself

Now, silentmartyr, if I read that right..she implies the pendant was also responsible for the gate opening. Don't pick and choose which quote's you want to ignore.

Okay, so you are going to give more credit to her thoughts right after the event happened over her thoughts after successfully making the gate key and having a better understanding of what had previously occured? Just checking, because normally people tend to favor the more experienced than the less expereinced.

Notice how she continually uses seem and other forms of the word. Never stating that it IS the reason. She never knows for sure that the pendant is really what caused everything to happen. It just appeared to be that way. Huh, kinda seems like a good way to get some teenagers to start a quest to save the planet from death? You know make it appear that the pendant caused the reaction so that Crono would follow Marle. If you are going to try and burn me with quotation make sure you fully read the quotes first before trying to make me look like a jackass.

Silent, I think you really need to replay the game. Crono goes on the telepod first. The gate isn't opened. Marle goes on it, and is gated, and they make a big deal about the pendant being involved. Crono goes and grabs the pendant, and then is similarly gated.

We don't know what all went into making the Gate Key. It uses principles behind the telepod, yes. But tell me: What does the Telepod do? Teleport people. What do gates do? Teleport people, only through time. Lucca probably was able to find a way to duplicate the reaction the pendant caused.

Yea, I did three days ago. I watched the entire scene. Twice. I don't see your point.

So you are telling me that without any knowledge of the pendant at all Lucca made the key based off of the pendants apparent reaction with the telepod. I know Lucca is smart, but c'mon thats a rediculous claim to make. It took her a good amount of time to repair Robo, and that was with some knowledge of robotics (Making Gato). But to make a device that recreates a scenario that you had only witnessed twice and had absolutely no way of studying the apparent catalyst of the reaction in the span of how long it took Crono to find Marle (Which I think is less than it took to fix Robo) seems a bit of a strech for any person.

Thats all i was trying to say. If you was to show that scene of Marle falling in the gate to people who havent played CT or even know what it is, they would still be able to access that the pendant was the key and the focus.

If I showed the scene in Medina where the mystics claim that Magus created Lavos to someone who doesn't know of CT then they would assume that Magus created Lavos. It still doesn't make it right.

the reason i threw your comment into question is the fact that her sentence specificly states that the gates where unstable and in order to add some stability to the gate she used her telepod's principles" (which you should remember involve teleporting people) this could mean that the gate key simply teleports people into the gate. the gate could have been created BY the pendent/telepod reaction, i would point you to my previous ideas about energy causing gates im already running late so if you havent found them when i get back ill post them then

like i said she is talking about using the gates in your quote... in theicedragon's quote lucca is talking about the creation of the gate seperating the two, is a good way to resolve the contradiction you describe

as far as the amount of time lucca took, i would like information from the trial of crono, how many days does the judge say crono and marle was gone for? and is it effected by stays in the end? further more with no stays in the end whats the amount of time he describes?

[SilentMartyr]

the reason i threw your comment into question is the fact that her sentence specificly states that the gates where unstable and in order to add some stability to the gate she used her telepod's principles" (which you should remember involve teleporting people) this could mean that the gate key simply teleports people into the gate. the gate could have been created BY the pendent/telepod reaction, i would point you to my previous ideas about energy causing gates im already running late so if you havent found them when i get back ill post them then

like i said she is talking about using the gates in your quote... in theicedragon's quote lucca is talking about the creation of the gate seperating the two, is a good way to resolve the contradiction you describe

as far as the amount of time lucca took, i would like information from the trial of crono, how many days does the judge say crono and marle was gone for? and is it effected by stays in the end? further more with no stays in the end whats the amount of time he describes?

The key only opens the gate, you can clearly see that the group has to enter the gate for them to be gated. If not then all of the soldiers and the chancellor would have been gated with them in Guardia Forest. That gate already existed before the fair even happened. Well, at least the other end of the gate, since that is where Janus came out when he was gated from the Ocean Palace.

Yes but do you realize she was merely thinking out loud? She had no scientific basis to make those claims, she merely saw what had happened and made a quick assesment.

The judge (nor anyone else) states how long they were gone for. I don't understand what you are asking me with those last two questions.

[Theicedragon]

Ok silentmartyr, u still don't get it.  That gate that was created was the result of the pendant and the teleod reacting to each other.  That is also the reason I belive u can't use that gate anymore through out the game.  It was a one time reaction.  Why can't u just give up on this issue, its in the game.  The developers(the true entity if u ask me) allowed us to see that reaction for two reasons......1. to show us how the adventure started......2. to show us that Marle's pendant is important(I find it highly suspicious that the pendant came off when you first meet Marle).

[evirus]

the reason i threw your comment into question is the fact that her sentence specificly states that the gates where unstable and in order to add some stability to the gate she used her telepod's principles" (which you should remember involve teleporting people) this could mean that the gate key simply teleports people into the gate. the gate could have been created BY the pendent/telepod reaction, i would point you to my previous ideas about energy causing gates im already running late so if you havent found them when i get back ill post them then

like i said she is talking about using the gates in your quote... in theicedragon's quote lucca is talking about the creation of the gate seperating the two, is a good way to resolve the contradiction you describe

as far as the amount of time lucca took, i would like information from the trial of crono, how many days does the judge say crono and marle was gone for? and is it effected by stays in the end? further more with no stays in the end whats the amount of time he describes?

The key only opens the gate, you can clearly see that the group has to enter the gate for them to be gated. If not then all of the soldiers and the chancellor would have been gated with them in Guardia Forest. That gate already existed before the fair even happened. Well, at least the other end of the gate, since that is where Janus came out when he was gated from the Ocean Palace.

Yes but do you realize she was merely thinking out loud? She had no scientific basis to make those claims, she merely saw what had happened and made a quick assesment.

The judge (nor anyone else) states how long they were gone for. I don't understand what you are asking me with those last two questions.

thats odd.... i just skimmed through the script and your last part is right about there being no mention of how long crono and marle was gone, i thought i remember something like that, it was probably the sentence of solitary confinement that i was thinking about. anyways the problem is there is no real passage of time observable in the game. all we know is that lucca while repairing robo took all night, you can spend an hour trying to find marle, you can spend a year trying to find marle. what im saying is that its not realy possable to bring up passage of time unless its specificly showen or mentioned.

i understand how these games work and the trigger system wasn't made to take passage of time into account it only waited for you to talk to marle, see her dissappear then exit the castle(i know that bringing up game mechanics is kind of a no no)

there is nothing that points to the amulate NOT causing the opening or creation of the gate, there is nothing that lucca says that contradicts her earlier statment regarding the interaction with the telepod and the pendent. and again i say that she uses the principles behind her telepod because the fact that the gates are unstable she dosnt say anywhere that the pendent was not at all responsable for what happened

[Theicedragon]

Oh, and Silentmartyr, I have to add that you basically support the theory yourself that the pendant is the cause of the gate opening.  You have another post you made today about it.. It is in the "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion".  I had to copy and paste what you said because i don't know if you can quote on a different topic but here is what you said.........................

Silentmartyr:The reason it was formed was because the Queen was not rescued from the Ocean Palace. It is assumed that in the original timeline Scahla used the last of her pendants power to teleport her and her mother out of there instead of the group. This is backed because if it didn't happen then the pendant would never have been recovered, since it would have been trapped in the pocket dimension along with Lavos.

I put what was important in bold. The pendant is the key.  Schala never lost the pendant, according to you, so marle never had it (in the original timeline)  I believe in the original timeline, Crono never time traveled.  Why, well because Marle didn't have the pendant so it could react with the telepod.  So unless you can give me another reason why the gate might not have appeared, this is what I beleive.

[Zaperking]

Just a note: Marle, Crono and Lucca spent 3 days in 600AD.

Also, Lucca took overnight to repair Robo because she was learning. How suffisticated do you think a machine from 1999AD would be to a basic machine like Gato in 1000AD? The Gato we see in the burning orphanage seems to have been AI upgraded to be almost like Robo.

Lucca is very advanced for her age and thinking.

Also, The pendant is special, do not forget that. Saying that it didn't cause the gate kills it off pretty much, especially when we know of everything that it does, whom it belongs to, the fact that it turns back time without any energy left in it and that Schala at the end finds a way to use it to find Serge or go back in time (as seen with the clocks turning back as she walks past in Tokyo).

[Sentenal]

Silent, the game STRONGLY implies the Pendant reacted with the Telepod to open the gate.  Your going up agianst this because you don't think Lucca could duplicate the reaction the Pendant gave to the Telepod.  I think your putting too much into the uncharged Pendant's power.  It was just a simple "magical" reaction.

Oh, and for the record, I'm only disagreeing with you on how the gate opened.  I still agree with you on its creation, mostly.

[evirus]

Silent, the game STRONGLY implies the Pendant reacted with the Telepod to open the gate.  Your going up agianst this because you don't think Lucca could duplicate the reaction the Pendant gave to the Telepod.  I think your putting too much into the uncharged Pendant's power.  It was just a simple "magical" reaction.

Oh, and for the record, I'm only disagreeing with you on how the gate opened.  I still agree with you on its creation, mostly.

everything starts with energy, sense of touch, moving feet, driving your car, working a telepod. prehaps the pendent was overcharged resualting in the gate in some odd way, or take this.... if the pendent is schala's the last thing it was used for was teleporting across space/time what if the pendent must be "configured" for different tasks like opening doors, or creating gates the energy pumped into the pendent by the telepod could have been the same thing as schala pumping energy into her pendent to open a gate to save everyone. and as far as duplicating effects of the pendent and telepod, is it likely that the telepod had some sort of output, or log incase of error telling the operator what went wrong and why? if this is the case then prehaps lucca wouldnt need the pendent to duplicate the effects because she would have a pretty fair chunk of data to work with

[Mystik3eb]

Guys, Silent's argument is that the pendent did not CREATE the gate, not that it didn't OPEN the gate. At least, that's the impression I get outta reading his posts.

In which I would agree.

[Sentenal]

Guys, Silent's argument is that the pendent did not CREATE the gate, not that it didn't OPEN the gate. At least, that's the impression I get outta reading his posts.

In which I would agree.

Hes arguing that the Pendant didn't create the gate, nor did it open it.  Hes arguing that the Entity created the Gate right after Crono go off the Telepod, and Marle got on it.  Hes arguing that the Telepod alone opened the gate.