Author Topic: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?  (Read 4209 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 11:17:42 pm »
Point well-taken, Jormungand, and thanks for dropping by to make it. I don't think your point and mine are mutually exclusive, but I also don't think that yours addresses mine. (I wouldn't expect you to answer every single criticism in the thread; rather, this post is my reply to yours.) The judgment standards are a problem, as evidenced by the number of new remixes coming in which seem bombastic rather than artistic. The production values keep going up, and a lot of good remixes are lost this way because they're supposedly not good enough on that count. (This is despite the fact that OCR and even video game music itself have such humble origins.) Now, if that were the end of the story, then my complaint--to the extent I had one at all--would be very different. But, in addition to some good WIPs not making the cut, a great deal of well-produced remixes, which nevertheless suffer from poor musical quality, make the grade. This sends the message that OCR admires production values over music, and the message that OCR judges music according to the personal tastes of the judges (around which a community ethos has developed) rather than by the considerably more objective elements and principles of music theory. I hate to single out individual composers as examples of such a wide-reaching criticism, but I have to cite at least one, so here it is:

http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01681/

That's a very well-produced piece in terms of sound quality. I envy audio editing skills that proficient and a sound library so rich. But it's incredibly disappointing on the level of the music. A few of my complaints: The arrangement is overstuffed like a bag of luggage that won't close. There's no thematic framework at all. The original melodies of "Dark World" and "Dark Mountain" (especially the former) are ripped apart, consistently undermining the piece's momentum. Listeners are continually deprived of what they expect to hear (if I may invoke Bernstein's "predictability" principle). And, yet, the decision was seemingly unanimous and apparently quite emphatically supportive.

It's true that remix composers have incredible latitude to deviate from the original, but that's not carte blanche. Video game music, especially from the earlier eras, is simple enough structurally that we can analyze it very closely, to the limits of our analytical skills. What makes something like "Dark World" such a well-liked piece of music is that it's catchy, fast-moving, and thematically complete. The remixer took away all of that. I won't begrudge anyone who wants to call it good music, but I'm suspicious that it was so uncontroversial to the judges. That tarnishes their credibility; and, like I said, this is just one example of a much wider problem.

What it comes down to is that, honestly, I think the judges are unfit. I think the community as a whole is overprotective of its tastes, and thereby closed-minded. I think we're looking at faux music criticism, faux music theory. Just like so many "journalists" on television today, the whole OCR operation has lost its professionalism--or, more likely, never had a true command of music analysis to begin with, and was simply more open-minded with its approvals in the past, thus preventing the problem which now has taken root. It's just a bunch of people sitting around talking about what they like, and being territorial about what remixes they approve. This whole scheme pales in comparison to genuine music theory comprehension and the good criticism which follows from it.

It's possible that I'm wrong and OCR is right, and that I just don't know much about music. It's possible that neither I nor OCR is right, and that we've simply got an artistic difference of perspective. But I don't think either of these is the case; I think OCR has become rigid and overly judgmental, and its judges never developed the skills to carry that rigidity and judgmentalism professionally. This certainly doesn't preclude good music from sometimes making its way to final approval, and I'm definitely not criticizing either the premise of OCR or the prerogative of OCR's panel of judges to indulge their personal style when making judgments. I don't want to seem like I'm one of those "love it or hate it" people. I'm not. My complaint is very specific, and is not related to art but to OCR's corrupted culture.

chi_z

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2010, 12:40:34 am »
I personally have beef with the judge system over at OCR. It used to be my favorite place for music period, now it's a bunch of egomaniacs seeing who pirated the most libraries, completely detracting from the original work in ways that do not fit. And the judges eat the shit up like a fat clown's asshole shits shit. For the past 2 years or so, the site has been in a decline of musicality to an uprising of production value-based ethics. I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed a single remix from the site in over 2 years.  I LOVE LOVE LOVE some of them, but I've noticed none of them were made after the year 2007. MOST of them are around 2002-2005 era.

The judges seem to be lightly educated in music theory, and try to show it off waaayyyyyyy too much. You can TELL they only know so much, and that ceiling is a low one. Tons of remixes, completely going against the common idea of a repeating theme/melody, are now present on OCR. They completely mutilate the melody, which should be the key link to the original piece. I say melody because the harmony is not such a prevalent part when it comes to video game music, most people have favorite songs from video games because of the catchy repeating melody/theme phrase. I haven't really seen much virtuosity coming from 3/4ths of the community over at OCR as of late. Why not tear up the melody in to something new? As long as you follow the rules of theme variations, it's all good.

Something tells me the artists that have been contributing to the site in the past couple years have read less than 1000 pages of boox on theory and composition, for any genre(orchestral, jazz,blues), lack formal musical instruction if they HAVEN'T read X amount of boox........try to put in as much instruments as possible, sometimes I see mixes where there will be like 30 instruments, 20 of them only having a handful of notes out of the whole song......Overall the scene went to cruddy and amateurish. That is not to say there is NOTHING good over there anymore. You can find some good artists on OCR, some REALLY FUCKING AMAZING artists, the kind that are easily professional level musicians. But 75% of them are quite amateur.

It's not about that 240 gb library you just DL'd on btmon.com. It's not about that FL STUDIO XXL PRODUCER EDITON UBER SYNTH PACK you just torrented. It's about your interpretation of the theme of the original work, and what YOU as an ARTIST can do with it. Remixes should be like this:

In 'Who's Line is it Anyway', there is a bit where the first person starts off with a topic they are given, they will say a few lines, and it goes to the next guy and they just go from there. Well the composer has a theme laid out for the entire game, a motive/leitmotif/whathaveyou. And in a particular song, he modifies that theme into the particular melody of said song, trying to establish a sound that complements the scene it plays in. You, as the remixer, need to provide your own take on this melody, perhaps by trying to fit it in as if the song were played in another scene, or perhaps slightly altering the mood of the melody to give off a certain emotion/feeling that's not quite present in the original, or emphasizing an already-present mood.

Here is what I have been seeing at OCR:

Take random song that's been done 1000X already. Get as much synths going as possible, with the most cliched and overdone settings on said synths. Make sure it does NOT fit with or complement or slightly alter the mood of the original instrument said synth is to replace. Make that synth DESTROY the original instrument, have it FUCK the intent of the original instrument, disregard the original instrument, don't even attempt to using a similar style to the original instrument(why are you using a staccato saw wave on a legato violin? that might be suited if the original instrument were some sort of horn, but a treble clef string?). Please learn the ins and outs of both the original instrument, and the synth you are using, otherwise it's like a 10 year old who hears a song and tries to play it on his 50 dollar squier using only one string. You aren't using the capabilities of the synths, you are annihilating the purpose of the original piece, all in the name of generic teknoe pop that will get you some high fives from your fellow 'artists'.

Very few on OCR are what I would call 'musicians'. How many uebermensche of musik do you guys know that aren't complete walking encyclopedias in at least ONE instrument? Most are masters in composition in umpteen instruments, and the specialists that tend to stick with a particular group of instruments(or even just one like guitarists), are complete Einstein's in technique, theory, every aspect of their instrument. It feels like OCR is any bozo with a pirated fruity loops and a midi of [insert game song here]. Few are the artists at OCR, those days are long gone.

If not already kristallklar, I'd just like to clarify that I'm not dissing everyone at OCR, just 75 percent of it. The system as a whole is flawed, and as neo-fusion stated earlier, newgrounds.com is the epitome, it's what OCR should model itself after. The judges need to spend about 100 hours or so brushing up on music theory, lingo, and history. Have they even heard of 12 tone system or serialism? Hint: those 2 are the same thing. Something tells me if some bozo on OCR DID study serialism, they'd get the jist of it and feel they have all they need to know, and try to incorporate it into  the maggiore-minore that 99 percent of game music uses, failing utterly and without respect to what the composer was going for. Anytime someone tries to completely change the song into something the composer didn't have in mind for the song, such as the FF6 orchestra album that Uematsu said went the polar opposite of what he was conveying with his originals, it tends to go to shit, 99.9 percent of the time. I remember seeing a billboard once that said "God votes pro-life". Really? You must have a pretty big dick if you can speak for God. So what makes your musical dik so big you can completely detract from ever aspect of the original, with only a shitty synth rehash of the melody as your encompassing feature that you believe gives you the excuse to call it a 'remix' or a 'piece of music' or god forbid 'art'.

I've got just over 10,000 pages in boox in .pdf format I'd be willing to share with the OCR community. If OCR were a country, and I were a dictator, I'd go in, shutdown their government for a year, and not let them continue til they have read all that, and then read at least 2 hours worth of synth programming tutorials.

Topix include:
orchestral composing
composing in general
forms
theme and melody
harmony
contrapuntal techniques and the various species thereof
serialism
jazz
blues
arranging from genre X to genre Y

And again, it's not everyone over there, there are some AMAZING ppl at OCR still. But it's gone the way of youtube, any dumbass with a laptop mic(pirated fruity loops) can record himself doing stupid shit(making shitty synth redubs of vgm). If that's too negative so be it, but the masses are uneducated, and the mass of OCR is musically stupid, and that just doesn't work.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 12:45:15 am by chi_z »

Ramsus

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2010, 02:31:14 pm »
Sounds like there really just needs to be more alternative video game remix sites for people to go to -- maybe a few with an open submission policy and a peer-review based voting and rank system.


chi_z

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2010, 07:06:02 pm »
it's called youtube. like here, we have the submissions forum. people such as myself, dunce, and more, will post our worx on youtube and share the link here at the compendium. we oughta just have a site that is dedicated to this type of thing, allowing all comers, and you could have any quality and length. you would post it on youtube, and in your youtube video description you'd give a few lynx to your mp3 or whatever. 3 minutes long or 3 hours, 192 kbps or 450 kpbs. this site could feasibly hold the Chrono music community in that way, however I was thinking of just as a brand new site to replace OCR, that is, any video game remixes not just the Chrono series.

On the site itself you would browse games by Console===>ABC order of game name=====>ABC order of track name. Mixes of several songs from the same game get put in their own 'track' titled 'Multi-song mixes' or what have you. If you mix several songs from several games, then it should be posted in the "multi-song mixes'' section of each of those games, but linking to the same page(no need for separate pages for the same song obviously). It would be set up to where there is no 'wanna be dj(insert random 7th century Germanic baked good here)' doing the judging. it would be a wiki format, where the page is 'created' out of thin air when someone submits it. the whole site is a wiki. the person wanting to submit their remix of Le Tresor Interdit from Chrono Cross would go to:

  • www.videogameremixwiki.com or whatever

    let's say this remixer's name is Chee to the Zee.
    on the main page, it's just a list of consoles and the news/updates of importance(posting popular remixes of the month, recent goings on in the vgm music world etc). the person,
    well Chee to the Zee, selects Playstation

    Next he scrolls down to Chrono Cross

    The list of tracks for Chrono Cross show up, he clicks on Le Tresor Interdit

    Now there are a bunch of lynx to all the different remixes, it's just an alphabetical list of direct links (the song name is the link to it's page).

    Chee to the Zee edits the Le Tresor Interdit wiki, and adds his song, called "Lost my Treasure, Found my Heart". That's why they call me Chee Zee folks.

    Next Chee to the Zee is to add the page for his song. There is a box on the right that says, 'add article'. This is where he creates his page. In it, he links to his youtube vid of his song, or embeds it if that's possible. He gives a description etc. Anyone is free to edit the page obviously. All the rules of wikipedia would apply, you are to take a neutral opinion as the artist submitting it. The reader should not know the artist made the page. For instance, "Lost My Treasure was a project that Chee to the Zee worked on from November 2001 to December 2012. It started with a simple chord prog written out on a napkin....." and so on. But NOT "Yo dudes, Chee to the Zee here, and liek, this is my best work yet it owns all that other shit....". The reader should NOT be aware that the artist wrote the article.

    Once finished with the article, Chee to the Zee goes back to the Le Tresor Interdit page, where he added his song, and now hyperlynx the song's name to the article he just wrote up.

    Ratings and comments? Youtube has that. This site is just for the text, the only thing the site hosts is a bunch of text pages linking to each other. Just a daisychain of lynx no actual music stored on the server.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 07:09:21 pm by chi_z »

neo-fusion

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2010, 01:22:13 pm »
From what I have read, basically OCRemix is a bunch of people who "butcher" music and make "exciting and new" remixes and if you don't like them, then you don't know anything about music, according to them.

I still hate OCRemix, I will stick to the Newgrounds Audio Portal, because for one, it accepts everyone and it also has a variety of remixes of JUST ONE SONG, rather than SEVERAL songs mashed together with SUPER AWSOME CRAZY TECHNO.

There's something for everyone at newgrounds.

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2010, 05:25:24 pm »
I would feel better about this topic if I knew that someone at OCR had first made a topic asking if anyone else over there thought the Compendium sucked (though I'm sure it's been discussed before on the GameFAQs CT board...>_>)...

neo-fusion

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2010, 09:54:36 pm »
Sounds like there really just needs to be more alternative video game remix sites for people to go to -- maybe a few with an open submission policy and a peer-review based voting and rank system.



Newgrounds.com/audio

Scoll down and search Chrono Trigger. Not only do you get variety, but you get ALL KINDS OF REMIXES/COVERS!!!

chi_z

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Re: Does anyone else think OCRemix sucks?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2010, 03:28:57 pm »
I hereby announce the death of OCREMIX, and newgrounds as its replacement. An email from ocr I recieved:


OverClocked ReMix is proud to introduce ReMixanator, a server-side dynamic arrangement generation system using our patented Algorithmic Synthesis System. We've put the ReMixing power in YOUR hands with a simple yet extremely flexible way for you to ReMix Game Music Online (tm).

* Love vocals? Add 'em in. Hate vocals? Get rid of 'em! With ReMixanator, it's possible!
* With Schala, Terra, AND Ice Cap, ReMixanator already covers 95% of the most-mixed VGM themes!
* Express your individuality while honoring game composers - in just 4 clicks!!
* 4 genres and 10 options means you'll be mixing well into next year! 3 new sources planned for Q4 2010, including Dr. Wily Stage 1!

Abraham Lincoln once said that "...you can't please ALL the people, ALL the time" - but he's gone now... AND that was before ReMixanator!

************************************
How did we do it??
************************************

ReMixanator generates your customized mix dynamically on our servers. How? The key is our Algorithmic Synthesis System. We used Agile Development and Web 2.0 to leverage XML in a Model-View-Controller framework, resulting in the phattest beats possible using today's technology. Next, we included non-linear, probabilistic pseudo-code that employs native heuristics to ensure that the riffs are hot, the licks are dirty, and the arrangement is neither too liberal nor too conservative. Finally, we modeled the combined neural networks of our judges (who are hereby relieved of their responsibilities) and constructed branching, recursive sub-routines to ensure that no dynamically-generated ReMixes will ever be rejected.

No hurt feelings, no slow human processes, no subjectivity whatsoever - ReMixanator makes music FUN again!

************************************
Notice
************************************

Effective immediately, OC ReMix will no longer be accepting submissions from individual artists. All album projects in progress have been canceled. We believe that our recently-released "ReMixanator" arrangement generation software will meet the needs of those craving fresh new video game mixes and make the concept of the arrangement album obsolete.


Obviously, this was april fools. Have fun kiddies!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 03:30:40 pm by chi_z »