What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

[Legend of the Past]

Okay, you know something? Chrono Cross doesn't talk about Lavos. It talks about the Time Devourer. He'll devour all of time. Meaning the entire timeline goes to hell. You could have bits of whatever time you want lying around, from Johnny to effing Leene Square.

[DBoruta]

That wouldn't make sence then since Company 2400 cannot exist, but it does so it's there.  Also, Leene Square doesn't need to be a building. Heck, the reason why they may need a portal to there is because the whole of that future was placed onto the Dead Sea and merged with it too, so that Sunset is like a vision from there or whatever.

Okay, you know something? Chrono Cross doesn't talk about Lavos. It talks about the Time Devourer. He'll devour all of time. Meaning the entire timeline goes to hell. You could have bits of whatever time you want lying around, from Johnny to effing Leene Square.

Wow, no.  This is one destroyed future.  This is not from multiple futures.  Here's the proof:

A future denied of all
   existence because of a
   change in the past...
   A future that was destroyed
   even before it was born
   rests here...condensed
   into the Dead Sea.

Company 2400 is there as well as everything else because it is from one time period - it is NOT from multiple futures.  


While Miguel does talk about his location and the Dead Sea,  

  Yes... I've been here
   in this very place...
   For 14 years...
   It wasn't like this
   when I got here, though...
   An incident that occurred
   10 years ago, transformed
   it into the Dead Sea.

you have to realize that he still thinks that he's in the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea.  The problem is, physical in-game evidence is showing us that this just doesn't add up.  Is that so hard to see?  

The more I think about it, the more I realize just how screwed up the Dead Sea is.  Physically, Chronopolis and the Leene's Square pocket dimension are not in the Dead Sea - you don't see any evidence of Chronopolis in the Dead Sea, and on top of it, Chronopolis isn't even visible in the Sea of Eden until the three "fates" are defeated.  So, while the Dead Sea exists, Chronopolis is most likely still intact and somewhat disconnected from the Dead Sea.  Since Miguel was inside Chronopolis (it is physically obvious he is not there, yet not in the Dead Sea timefreeze itself), he is still "in" the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea because he has been a prisoner of FATE, but physically, he's not in the Dead Sea.  I really wish I could explain it better - it's really confusing to me even, but this has to be the right answer - anything else is disproven by one piece of in-game evidence or another.

[Zaperking]

The thing is... That future was born. It existed... Lavos reigned.. So WTF? But Crono and co changed time so it wouldn't come to pass and the newer history came to pass. Then the time crash happened. So if i'm not mistaken, the Dead Sea's future is the reflection of the future that will come to pass if Serge doesn't die before the end of the game. So it gets ruined.

As for Chronopolis, it was most likely merged into everything or was crushed by it. There is no Chronopolis after the Dead Sea is destroyed. And Miguel was binded to the Dead Sea by FATE. There is no Miguel in another world. FATE probably didn't need him.

And also, you have to remember what Miguel said. It's condensed into the Dead Sea. Obviously there isn't like enough space in there to fit a 40,000km world. Leene square would be put somewhere random, but maybe because the Frozen Flame is there, it got put ontop of the Tower of Geddon for whatever reason.

And yeah, the Flame kind of shows that Chronopolis was their once.

[AuraTwilight]

Dbouta, your entire argument is flawed in that you're trying to make the Dead Sea make sense, which is impossible. If whatever force of nature that created the Dead Sea felt like putting Leene Square with a sunset inside cloudy tower, then it'll be damned if it doesn't work.

[DBoruta]

The thing is... That future was born. It existed... Lavos reigned.. So WTF? But Crono and co changed time so it wouldn't come to pass and the newer history came to pass. Then the time crash happened. So if i'm not mistaken, the Dead Sea's future is the reflection of the future that will come to pass if Serge doesn't die before the end of the game. So it gets ruined.

I don't think that's how it works exactly....  But this brings us back to the original question I posed.  If Serge would have continued along his destiny of coming into possession of the Frozen Flame (either as himself or FATE in his body), something would have gone horribly wrong - the Dead Sea shows that Lavos would have reigned in the future, but we also know the Time Devourer would have consumed all space-time.   So, we finally come back to the initial dilemma - which would have happened, or would have both happened?  

As for Chronopolis, it was most likely merged into everything or was crushed by it. There is no Chronopolis after the Dead Sea is destroyed. And Miguel was binded to the Dead Sea by FATE. There is no Miguel in another world. FATE probably didn't need him.

And also, you have to remember what Miguel said. It's condensed into the Dead Sea. Obviously there isn't like enough space in there to fit a 40,000km world. Leene square would be put somewhere random, but maybe because the Frozen Flame is there, it got put ontop of the Tower of Geddon for whatever reason.

And yeah, the Flame kind of shows that Chronopolis was their once.

Well, since the FATE computer is still operational and has some control in the Home World Dimension, I don't think that Chronopolis was destroyed.  If anything, it may be able to disconnect itself from actual space-time unless certain safeguards are taken out of commission (power to the facility, the "fates", Lavos intervening through the Frozen Flame to pull it back through time, etc...).  I'm not 100% on it, but from what we see in the game, it seems like a logical conclusion.    

Dbouta, your entire argument is flawed in that you're trying to make the Dead Sea make sense, which is impossible. If whatever force of nature that created the Dead Sea felt like putting Leene Square with a sunset inside cloudy tower, then it'll be damned if it doesn't work.

Okay, so my argument is flawed because it's logical?  That makes absolutely no sense at all.  Seriously, the Dead Sea is really weird, but even the Dead Sea has to follow some fundamental laws.

[Zaperking]

I don't think that's how it works exactly....  But this brings us back to the original question I posed.  If Serge would have continued along his destiny of coming into possession of the Frozen Flame (either as himself or FATE in his body), something would have gone horribly wrong - the Dead Sea shows that Lavos would have reigned in the future, but we also know the Time Devourer would have consumed all space-time.   So, we finally come back to the initial dilemma - which would have happened, or would have both happened?  

Well, since the FATE computer is still operational and has some control in the Home World Dimension, I don't think that Chronopolis was destroyed.  If anything, it may be able to disconnect itself from actual space-time unless certain safeguards are taken out of commission (power to the facility, the "fates", Lavos intervening through the Frozen Flame to pull it back through time, etc...).  I'm not 100% on it, but from what we see in the game, it seems like a logical conclusion.    

Okay, so my argument is flawed because it's logical?  That makes absolutely no sense at all.  Seriously, the Dead Sea is really weird, but even the Dead Sea has to follow some fundamental laws.

1) Maybe if Serge and the flame do their thing, The TD is stopped, but instead the World dies again, but this time forever since Lavos gets pulled out of the DBT and becomes whole again as if he never died, so this time around in 1999AD, no Crono and co and Lavos can finally defeat the planet.

2) FATE does NOT exist in Home World. Nothing.. None of it is active. The remaining records of FATE in Home World transmit something and Another World picks them up through the dimensional destortions. Otherwise Home World would be free once the Dead Sea is gone, but it's not.

3) I don't think it's smart to start playing around with the Dead Sea. We know it's weird. It's meant to be that way. Zeality says Chrono Cross has no plot holes. Though it depends what you define as a plothole. I personally take it as that if something isn't explained in depth or contradicts the plot in a canonical ending of a sence or such a reason why the plot is driven, I count that too. Hence, I'd have the Dead Sea on my list. But so far CT has more plotholes, and more theories then are necessary to destroy such things as why Marle dissapeared etc etc. Tackling those first would be wiser, in my opinion. I have my own ideas about the CT paradoxes and why some theories like TB are unnecessary, but most people don't give you the time or day. I think you're really smart and such, but unless everything is in depth and you have people to back you up (who can actually think and not just join the band wagon), then you can win too.

[DBoruta]

 Maybe if Serge and the flame do their thing, The TD is stopped, but instead the World dies again, but this time forever since Lavos gets pulled out of the DBT and becomes whole again as if he never died, so this time around in 1999AD, no Crono and co and Lavos can finally defeat the planet.

So you're saying it's a series of loops that takes it all back to square one, except with Chronopolis getting pulled back through time and El Nido still forming.  Sounds interesting.  

2) FATE does NOT exist in Home World. Nothing.. None of it is active. The remaining records of FATE in Home World transmit something and Another World picks them up through the dimensional destortions. Otherwise Home World would be free once the Dead Sea is gone, but it's not.

I don't buy that - if the FATE from Another World can only monitor stuff going on in Home World, there should be absolutely no way for it to control what is going on in the Dead Sea.  I'm not saying that the Home World FATE can control what's going on in the rest of El Nido, just some of what happens in the Dead Sea.  

I don't think it's smart to start playing around with the Dead Sea. We know it's weird. It's meant to be that way. Zeality says Chrono Cross has no plot holes. Though it depends what you define as a plothole. I personally take it as that if something isn't explained in depth or contradicts the plot in a canonical ending of a sence or such a reason why the plot is driven, I count that too. Hence, I'd have the Dead Sea on my list. But so far CT has more plotholes, and more theories then are necessary to destroy such things as why Marle dissapeared etc etc. Tackling those first would be wiser, in my opinion

I don't believe this is a plot hole at all, on the contrary, I believe there is a good explanation for it - we just have to look for it. The evidence is there, and we can make sense of it.  That being said, I know you know that the Dead Sea is weird, and I know it's meant to be weird.  When I'm talking about it being really weird, I mean it - it's a lot more weird than implied by anyone here that I have read so far, including everything in Salt for the Dead Sea.  Does that mean it can't be answered?  No!  I believe there is a logical explanation for it.  

As far as tackling stuff in Chrono Trigger, I have tackled what I have found intereresting so far.  Now, I find this aspect of Chrono Cross interesting, so I am going to tackle it.  While having people on the site who think freely back me would be a very good thing, the way I see it, if I haven't earned their resepect with the things I have written so far, I never will get their respect.  I wrote a lot of the things I wrote on this site to build a starting reputation as a free thinker who likes to have good debates.  In all honesty, I hate having people just bandwagon onto things without thinking about it - it just isn't right.

[Mystik3eb]

Since the TD in the DBT is outside the regular flow of time, kinda like a PD, it's related more in the perspective of Time Error, meaning the current timeline cannot see the future where all is devoured...cuz according to the perspective of Time Error, or the TD in the DBT, it hasn't happened yet, and won't happen until the TD reaches that point of strength...does that make sense?

[DBoruta]

That does make sense - Time Error should be able to come into play here, as Time Error should be able to be demonstrated in aplace similar to the DBT - the End of Time.