Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)

[idiotekque]

lol, I was gonna say knee-high, but I don't think I was quite that short. My mom had a graphic artist friend at the time, so she... let us borrow Photoshop 5.5. Yeah, borrow.

But naturally I started with doodles in MSPaint. Hell, when I was really young I used to type random things in DOS for no reason whatsoever.

[tushantin]

Photoshop? Photoshop! BAH! Young kids today, they have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Now Dr. Doodle, THAT was a graphic creation program!

I've drawn.... in paint... does that counts? Nah, I already stated in what I can work best.

Dr. Doodle? Paint?! BAH! You... human folks... today... I make my professional Graphic Designs with wax crayons. Now THAT is a graphic creation tool that real artists choose!

I mean... LOOK AT THESE GENIUSES AT WORK! I do my best to emulate these masters as much as I can.*

My mom had a graphic artist friend at the time, so she... let us borrow Photoshop 5.5. Yeah, borrow.

Interesting! My first dabbling into digital art actually began similarly, though not by choice entirely...

My uncle sent in money to buy us nephews our very first computer (I was still 15 or 16, I think). See, some strange engineer actually accidentally installed Photoshop 6 and just left it in there, forgetting about it. I knew the program was expensive, because I've heard that some "professionals" used it for photo editing... but we didn't even have photos to begin with, because we couldn't afford a camera either.

So anywho, we brothers played around with it, but couldn't figure the damn thing out. My younger brother decided to "give up" on it, but being the rebel I was I decided to conquer it and looked up tutorials for it, just for the hell of it and just because I believed I could. Eventually I realized you could make anime (specifically Dragonball Z) pictures with it. Sweet! So I followed the tutorials, scanned my drawings, coloured the drawings with only a mouse via the Lasso tool (I couldn't figure out how to use the Pen tool), and....

....the resulting picture was crap. No sweat! I was proud of my work, and decided to do more. I still practised with just a mouse until I managed to purchase a graphic tablet (which was nearly impossible to acquire in my city... I literally ran across the city, trying to find one, let alone get an "affordable" one. THAT'S how dedicated I was to my art, and it was awkward for me and my family because I hadn't a specific role-model who was in our vicinity; I was the first one trying to become a digital artist that we know of, and nobody knew what the heck a Tablet was).

And eventually, I came to become the artist you guys know me today (who totally ditched Photoshop in favour of open-source and more "awesome" alternatives).  

*In that last sentence there above the picture, I was actually being serious.

[idiotekque]

Y'know, maybe I have a shitty tablet, but I've never liked drawing that way. I can draw considerably cleaner lines with a mouse (though just drawing on paper and scanning is vastly more preferable), while drawing with a tablet is just too sketchy for me. It's a Wacom, and it wasn't that cheap when I bought it, but I'd imagine it's horribly dated now. I'm not much of an artist as far as drawing goes anyways.

[tushantin]

Y'know, maybe I have a shitty tablet, but I've never liked drawing that way. I can draw considerably cleaner lines with a mouse (though just drawing on paper and scanning is vastly more preferable), while drawing with a tablet is just too sketchy for me. It's a Wacom, and it wasn't that cheap when I bought it, but I'd imagine it's horribly dated now. I'm not much of an artist as far as drawing goes anyways.

It seems like you may be offended by my words (you'll need to pardon me on that; I tend to somehow do that unintentionally.) I'm sorry, I didn't mean to undermine you on anything, if you interpreted it as that. I just like to think aloud, and just... flow. (Yes, I'm one of those people who tends to talk to myself)

But there's something I think -- whether differently or in-line to your belief, that's for you to choose -- that art comes from tools that come natural to you. Tablet doesn't work? Put it aside until it comes to use later. My painting pattern is "circular", which is why a tablet helps me.

But drawing alone doesn't make "art". Heck, your knowledge and insights on positions, forms and colors are usually enough for most successful graphic artists out there (akin to my previous boss who's taught me plenty)! Michaelangelo hated drawing too; he preferred sculpting.

Yet, the greatest art isn't "what you're good at", but "what you're willing to do just to be good at something you like or don't like". Because the greatest art isn't the paper, or the clay, that is destined to be complete. The greatest masterpiece is you, who is a multitude enough to create moving pieces or influence events in ways no one was every capable of before. A flesh can be a poem. A soul can be its music.

So in any case, I'm not really sure who you are idiotekque (though I'd like to know!), and I'm not sure about what your life is like, and I'm not exactly sure how good of an artist you consider yourself to be. But I'm perfectly sure that, being a part of this project or something else entirely where your abilities with Photoshop can be put to use, you'll gain so much in skill that it's hard to imagine right now.  Even if the project isn't complete, it's what you gain personally that makes you smile with no regrets of being a part of a great experience.

[idiotekque]

Offended by what? I'm not offended, you must have misunderstood me.

I know I'm a very artistic person, I'm just not much of a drawer (if that's a proper term). Silly as it may be, I honed my graphic art style when I made signature/banners for people on a Freelancer (online space combat/trading game) forum, in exchange for in game credits. From there I've done some logo and banner work for people, have created my own logos for past projects (abandoned blogs, for one), etc. My artistic side, though, is far more prevalent in my writing, from short stories to novels to poetry to lyrics. I dabble in DAW composing too, but I need to learn the latest program I'm trying out.

I think all of us need to be creative on some level, or life just feels meaningless. We're meant to create, whether it be through prose, music, illustration, whatever. Unfortunately that old quote "Nobody but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." often feels horribly accurate.

[Acacia Sgt]

Ahahah, I was thinking on mentioning instead sheet of paper and crayons, but then I decided to keep the theme of Computer Programs. Oh well...

[Thought]

Bonus points for you, Acacia

Anywho, it doesn't look like we have any team leaders coming forward, but it would be totally awesome if, regardless of game, members of the Chrono Community banded together into a professional game development studio. I suspect that the unfortunate revisions to Kajar Labs haven't done much to promote such a community. Perhaps some coding/program/whatever branches of it could be opened up again. Not to hack the original roms (because that would be totally awesome, and SE can't have any of that), but to allow for discussions that don't involve CT fangames made with RPG maker or the sort.

[tushantin]

Lemme share an inspiring Indian quote (translated by yours truly) with y'all:

Who says the sky can't have a dent? Just try to throw a stone with enough health and spirit you can muster, my friend.

[Lennis]

Wow.  I'm off the Compendium for a little while and look what happens?  It's been years since I've seen a thread generate this kind of activity.

Jumping into the discussion a bit late, I feel I need to remind people of the importance of character.  Not what they are and what they do, but who they are.  I've seen lots of talk about time travel and associated theories, but not a lot about the characters themselves.  If you want to capture the essence of Chrono, you have to capture character in a bottle.  That's not easy, and is one of the reasons why most fan-projects either fail outright or come off feeling underwhelming.  In the context of a game, your art has to convey character as much as dialogue.  Look back on the original CT and see how a character's unique animation lent an air of individuality to that person.  Crono's fist-pump.  Marle's scream.  Lucca tipping her glasses, etc.  These little things add more than you might think.  Combine that with distinctive ways of talking and a musical theme for each character, and you have Chrono.  It's not just about the time-travel.  Plot devices don't make people fall in love with sprites or polygons.

That said, perhaps the single most daunting challenge to a fan-project of the scope being discussed here is finding a good composer.  Since you can't use any of Mitsuda's stuff, you'd have to create a new score from the ground up.  A simple dabbler in music will not do.  You need a professional composer to flesh out the character of a game, and good luck finding one willing to work for pennies, or who aren't already working for a major game studio.

I don't want to poo-poo on anyone's aspirations, but talking about a full-fledged Kickstarter project is a big step up from hacking Super Nintendo ROMs.  How much of this is serious discussion, and how much is just wishful thinking?  After all, what we really want is a continuance or a remake of the Chrono franchise.  For all our talk of creating something new, deep down we just want to see Crono, Marle, and Lucca again.  Am I wrong?

[Thought]

If we just wanted to see the Trio again, then fanfic, fan art, and replaying the old game would be enough. People want to recapture the original experience of playing the game, and they can't get that without a new game, but the new game needn't be CT to invoke the same experience.

That said, it's more of a question of if people want to create a game, or if people want to have created a game. That is, do they enjoy the creative process, or just want the end product and the fame that comes with it?

[tushantin]

Frankly, I don't think I'd have the chance to play the game we create, so rest assured I was more serious about actually creating it. But then you'd question my passion regarding creating the game in the first place; the reason behind my decision is that I need a professional level project which can be recognized and hence propel me further towards properly starting my dream career.

So no: as much as I'd like to see the Chrono crew again, I'd like to be more focused on original content for now.

That's where I thought: what if we make Crimson Echoes an original content altogether and save it from oblivion? But of course, folks here don't like the idea. Then comes the question: What will our story be then? We know there will be time and dimension travel, but how and why? And as you, Lennis, point out out, who will the characters be?

But no one seems to have a clue.

Except for me.

There is an interesting Time-Space and Dimension based game I once thought of that I eventually shared with FaustWolf, and the story and gameplay had nothing to do with Chrono series. Agreed, it's the kind of game I'd like to work on in the future, but I refrain from stating it here because I believe it's quite an ambitious project to start with and hence we'll never get it done. Hence I proposed Crimson Echoes, because it's easier and more affordable to test the waters with an existing storyline. However, it'll be even easier if someone has a better idea.

P. S. : Since I'm already working (alone) on a project, why can't I get literary and artistic help on that here? I'd love some collaboration for Polar Detective!

[idiotekque]

The important thing is putting our heads together and trying. If it flops, oh well, it flopped. Playing devil's advocate in that the project is hopeless isn't really going to do any good. Impressive games been made by single individuals or very small start up teams before, I say with strong emphasis "Nothing is impossible."

That said, characters will be very important, yes. I don't really anyone here was saying nor thinking "Time travel plot > characters", though.

[tushantin]

Just thought I'd bring this to everyone's notice: http://code.google.com/p/gamekit/

And yes, it's possible to make 2d games with 3d engines like Blender, Unity and Game kit. Hey, the successful Bad Piggies did it!

[alfadorredux]

Coming up with characters or plot is not the difficult part.[1] The problem is getting everyone pointed in the same direction. I know it isn't a job that I would like to take on—management isn't much fun, and I've got too little time and too much Stuff that I would like to get done already. The problem with enjoying the process of creation is that you end up with a lot of unfinished projects lying around, and more are always turning up to whack you over the head.

[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.

[Acacia Sgt]

That said, it's more of a question of if people want to create a game, or if people want to have created a game. That is, do they enjoy the creative process, or just want the end product and the fame that comes with it?

Quite personally, I wouldn't see much point on the latter without acknowledging the former. Like how does that saying goes? "What matters is the journey, not the destination"? Either way, it's not like the former can't be enjoyable on it's own right.