Author Topic: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)  (Read 33665 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2013, 01:58:43 am »
I say let this concept stand on it's own right. Forget Crimson Echoes. Let is just be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole.

What if it dealt with overcoming fate and paradox? It deals with overcoming the fatalistic time travel, in which every attempt to change the timeline only results in creating the reality are trying to avoid?

idiotekque

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2013, 02:01:25 am »
^

Most definitely let it be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series. I also mirror the sentiment of the "overcoming fate" thing. I loved that in CC and thought it was one of the strongest and most interesting themes in the story. Kato kinda went to town on that game as far as creating a psychotic, deeply intricate storyline. I guess it's always smarter to make something that's... understandable and relates to a wide audience, but the depth of RPGs like Chrono Cross has more or less gone out the window in today's generation of RPGs. It's sad.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2013, 02:06:25 am »
Another concept I can think of is that the catastrophe happens because of the time travel. As in say, traveling to the future triggers it because you left and so you weren't there to stop it, and therefore it happened.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2013, 02:39:51 am »
Okay, then can I have a moment for shameless self promotion?

Years ago I wrote out the synopsis for a spiritual successor to Chrono Trigger and the entire Chrono Trigger series. It dealt with an entirely new universe (although there were links between this concept and the Chrono series). Eventually, I decided that this concept was simply too interesting (to me) to doom it as a "never happening" Chrono Trigger fan game. Instead, I refashioned it; removing all elements of Chrono Trigger to allow to exist as it's own story.

It starts out as a time traveling adventure, but as the heroes try to change history, they learn that they are only fulfilling the timeline(s) they are trying to avoid. In time they learn the secrets of WHY they were able to time travel (what ultimately led them on this adventure), and are forced to confront conceptions of religion, and more importantly, predestination and fate. Their end-game mission is to ultimately destroy predestination itself, freeing mankind from the chains of fate.

It gets a little trippy in the final act, I admit, so I don't know how popular the concept will be, nor if it would be worth a read to you all.

It follows the formulaic Chrono Trigger storyline, complete with different time era's and characters from each. I have a quick, 7-8 page treatment for the storyline.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 03:03:23 am by Boo the Gentleman Caller »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2013, 03:08:47 am »
Haha, I suppose it could be an idea for the concept board. :lol:

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2013, 08:30:46 am »
...we could create a Kickstarter and ADVERTISE it as a Chrono Trigger spiritual successor.
Or Inspired By Chrono Trigger / Cross. We wouldn't want SE up our meat again...

No love for inter-dimensional travel? :P
I'd say it's better to stick with one, or keep the other in a very minor role.
Theoretically, we can have both -- not based on Chrono series, but the actual Quantum theories regarding Time Travel and Parallel Universes. (Someone wanna catch one end of a String Theory? Anyone?)

Well, averting a bad future is pretty much a staple when time travel is involved.

...I deserve a facepalm for not realizing that.

And this is where Crimson Echoes' originality comes in: Time Travelers try to avert a bad future... until they realize that THEY'VE been the villains all along!

Speaking of which, this is exactly where Boo's own concepts can be "merged" with the story-line to make it seem as if the beginning of Crimson Echoes is not exactly a sequel, but an independent story in its own right.

By the way, something that should be agreed upon: Would this production be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole or specifically to Crimson Echoes?

By the way, something that should be agreed upon: Would this production be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole or specifically to Crimson Echoes?

I say let this concept stand on it's own right. Forget Crimson Echoes. Let is just be a spiritual successor to the Chrono series as a whole.
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.

I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake...)

Here's some more details about the characters:

Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?




Completely off-topic, but I was just amusing myself at one thought. WARNING: TOTALLY NARCISSISTIC MUSING FOLLOWS! Feel free to hate me if you like, because you guys are just fantastic. Nothing can be possible without any of you.

It took Dark Serge / Hellspawns only a moment to destroy CE and the Chrono Community in its majority.

But it took me only one post to spark interest in the Chrono series and BIG BANG a whole universe of enthusiastic discussions in the Chrono community, which I hope will be rapidly growing now as we continue. And this only goes to show that the Dream of Zeal is still alive.

That sort of makes me an Anti-DarkSerge, huh?



« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 08:44:21 am by tushantin »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2013, 01:37:22 pm »
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.

I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake...)

Here's some more details about the characters:

Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?

Well, if we separate from CE, we can have more freedom over what direction to take the story and stuff.

I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.

skylark

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2013, 01:51:36 pm »
But didn't the idea begin as an attempt to turn Crimson Echoes into an original, non-Chrono game? Of course, this original game can still be a spiritual successor despite the attempt.

I mean, think about it: We've seen "The Magus", but we've never seen an older Janus, right? (Somehow, I keep envisioning Janus as a more cunning version of John Mandrake...)

Here's some more details about the characters:

Crono -- This time an adventurer who can wield DUAL BLADES (of course, the ability needs to be "unlocked")
Marle -- This time a more devastating Ice user, rather than just a healer.
Lucca -- MACHINE GUNS, YO!
Ayla -- ....Man, it's really difficult to think about something more awesome than she already is. She IS the pillar of Light in Crimson Echoes.
Robo -- A formless android who strives to achieve sentience, but is able to replicate his program in cyberspace. (Much like Ghost In The Shell)
Glenn -- A Demi-Human Knight who is tasked to fight his own people, caught in the storms of conflict and has just lost his friend. Perhaps a Dwarf? An Orc? A Serpant? Godzilla?

Well, if we separate from CE, we can have more freedom over what direction to take the story and stuff.

I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.

If we're doing cast deviation, will that mean Schala doesn't need to merge wit the equivalent of Lavos and can become a playable character?

(No. Kid doesn't count! >_<)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2013, 02:00:32 pm »
Schala wouldn't need to be a playable character if this is a spiritual successor and nothing else. I say go with a cast that's not limited to the charachtatures of Chrono Trigger people. Start from scratch, right?

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2013, 02:08:56 pm »
I'd say that the cast should also deviate more from the CT ones. I mean, even with those changes, they still would be too similar to the originals.
That's the tricky part: how can we have a spiritual successor of Chrono series, but removing every reference to CT and still being faithful to CE's story-line?

Keeping with Crimson Echoes' theme -- Ambition, Aspirations and Dreams -- I've played with some ideas before, and here are some I thought was pretty cool:

1) Replace "Frozen Flame" with "Dream Ember" -- a legendary power that can grant any aspirations agency to take off. This can be symbolical to "Passive dreams", such as having a love-life, living in harmony, or to "Active Ambitions" such as desiring to rule the world, or changing the world for the better, to even "Delusions" where everything you dream might simply be a set of hallucinations that you project upon the world, and hence making you more susceptible to sin, deceit and manipulation. Many characters seek this flame, much as they would seek the Fountain of Youth, and much like the ironic twist of the Fountain of Youth it turns out that the Flame is within every character that lives -- including robots that have harnessed Sentience.

2) The Kingdom of Zeal will be revisited, but with a different twist: It's no longer the "Enlightened" who have ascended thanks to Lavos' intervention. Instead, Zeal will simply be an equivalent to "Valhalla" -- a gigantic broken continent and chains of islands in the sky, reigning upon the planet -- where the civilians share the same blood lineage with the Earthbounds. Here, the Earthbounds seem to relate more with the characters than the Valhallans, and the people in the sky would be a reminiscent of Nordic lore / Poetic Edda (think about it: King Zeal is Odin?) We WILL have characters from the Earthbound, perhaps even a female equivalent to Siegfried (which may or may not replace Ayla). But how does this Neo-Zeal fall? Not because they summoned Lavos, but because they waged war against the Morning Star, Loki-equivalent, bringing the War of Ragnarok (which may have been just as cataclysmic as the "Foundation of Zeal").

3) King Zeal would be the "Captain of the Titanic", who died along with his Kingdom. Except something saved him. And he intends to eradicate whatever it is that destroyed his Kingdom from the Prehistorics itself, so as to sustain his Kingdom's prosperous future (even though the Heroes of Time destroyed that villain before).

4) Most of the other characters from CT would be re-visited, and will be introduced similar to how CT introduced their characters. But of course, there will be changes. Schala can be a playable character if she isn't saved in time; otherwise, she'll witness the horrors of time and obtain the Dream Flame to destroy all of reality. If she is saved, then we'll have a completely new Final Boss.

5) Janus (not Magus) flees the wars of Zeal in order to seek out Schala, and finds himself Time-Hopping. He will be different from Magus, but will display the same level of competence and darkness (or at least he becomes darker as the story progresses). The only way he can save Schala by the end is to change himself into a more faithful fellow. If Schala isn't saved, we have the exact same ending as the ending of CE, where Magus and KZ converse.

6) This time it's not Crono who goes and attempts to save Marle from the Time Portal, it's the other way around: Crono finds himself stumbling through cracks in reality, while Marle goes in to save him.

7) Many ideas for Crono: He may be a simple kid, as in CT and CC (Serge). He could be a thief (RD). He could be a soldier, working for NASA (LOL) or Chronopolis, and volunteers to experiment with time travel. He could be a hermit. He could be Mr Bekkler.

8) Belthasar isn't saved because Crono and co murdered defeated Lavos. Instead, he finds himself alive because KZ changed timeline.

9) So who's the Lavos / Dream Devourer replacement? Well... there's plenty of options.  :)

There are a lot more ideas, but these are just off the surface of my mind.


Of course, I had to refer to some of those ideas from Thesaurus.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 02:11:01 pm by tushantin »

Thought

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2013, 02:23:40 pm »
And this is why story is so easy. Look, we don't even have a team yet, and the story is already in development!

At this point, we need a professional to step forward to take this on as a professional project. That will be the team lead (at least for now), and they'll have to recruit other professionals. There's really not much point in us discussing the specifics of anything.

Anywho, there are three concepts present in CT that might be useful for such a team to consider for a spiritual successor. Not to design it, but to hone it:

1) Three Act Format. Actually, I like to call CT’s version “Three Quest Format.” There was the first, minor quest (save Marle) that served as a means to introduce some of the main concepts in the game (time travel, changing the future, Magus, and magic), then a second quest, a main one (Stop Magus), a twist (oh noes, Magus wasn't the Big Bad after all), and then third quest (defeat Lavos itself!). Three Act is a familiar structure that served CT well, and I think it would be useful for a spiritual successor.

I suspect one of CC’s problems, and why it isn’t considered the same sort of classic, is that its structure is far more vague. Honestly, I’m not sure if three act, five act, seven point, or some other structure would fit it better.

2) Character Dungeons. CT forced the player to spend time with each character, and during that time, the character’s backstory was provided. We have a few variations on this, but the overall effect was to make every character shine made the fans love them. Robo’s dungeon was the Forgotten Future’s power plant thingy, Frog’s the Cathedral and Magus’ castle, Ayla’s the forest and Reptite Lair, and Magus’ was the first quest, and half the second. And so on.

CC again lacked this. What was Pip’s character dungeon? Funguy’s? They added to the story, a little, but it was quite possible for the player to never encounter them, and so there was no bonding.

3) Hero's Jounrey (see the Campbellian monomyth): Crono meets a mentor (Lucca), heeds the call to adventure (save Marle), crosses a threshold (time travels), meets up with a wide variety of helpers (frog, robo, Ayla, magus), gains a oneness with the universe (dies), defeats evil (aka, Lavos), returns home/recrosses the boundary (ending scene), and discovers that the hero can never return to the old life (Guardia falls).

I feel like CC has a good bit of this, but again is far vaguer. Serge meets a mentor (kid), maybe he heeds a call to adventure somewhere?, crosses a threshold (dimensional travel), doesn’t really meet with a wide variety of helpers (sure, the cast is large, but most of them aren’t necessary in the least, so they aren’t really helpers in the monomyth sense), gains a oneness with the universe (the Frozen Flame), defeats evil-ish things (Lynx, Fate, the Dragon Gods, your mom), but doesn’t return home. There’s no recrossing of the threshold! The game ended too quickly. One should never forget denouement.

As a bonus, here's a question: can any of these (or any bit of story theory) be identified in CE? If not, then we might want to stay away from making a CT spiritual successor too much like CE.

Kodokami

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2013, 02:45:39 pm »
Very good points to be considered, Thought.

For reference, here's a time machine to check up on CE's plot:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120323162840/http://crimsonechoes.com/Plot.html

~~~

I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2013, 04:25:38 pm »
I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.
If that's narcissistic, then I'm probably the devil.  :) <---- Despite all the innocent faces I give you all.

Anyway, when I mentioned a Crimson Echoes remake, I didn't intend to make a homage of the Chrono series. My intention was to relive the Crimson Echoes experience as it was meant to be: Playable, exploring the themes, ideas and adventures. My intention was to save / revive a lost Art. (Thought would understand that; after all, he was the one who called me "Redeemer of the Slain Dragons" once.)

Why?

Because despite the efforts taken to hone the story to its perfection, despite the time taken to upload every video of its gameplay, the amount of people that watch the story only consist of a fraction of the Chrono lovers, all the while majority of the market has fallen for countless of other lesser products that exist only as personal amusements.

I realize Crimson Echoes is only a fanfiction. But it's also a splendid Art in its own right.

The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas -- and hence needing ZeaLitY back in the team, if he can -- and still make it fun for people who've never touched the Chrono series before. I merely desired to turn Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes to simply Crimson Echoes, or even Crimson Echoes: Dirge of the Fallen, or perhaps even A Crimson Book of Echoes (the title which pokes at a reference from String Theory).

Anywho, before we start anything at all, we'll still need a realistic design document. Or at least discuss how the game can be made.

Speaking of which, Thought, as much as I love the idea of a professional means of production, I still abhor bureaucracy. I actually think it'll be a good idea that, despite having a professional team, we still remain transparent and work with the fans to have the best possible result. Especially because our team is small, we'll need to remain flexible at all costs.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2013, 04:53:04 pm »
Say, should we create a thread for this? Kinda felt like we've hijacked this one. :lol:

While we're at it, I offer my candidacy for a position on the gameplay structuring department.

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2013, 06:03:23 pm »
I ultimately agree with Boo; let's forget CE and create something entirely new in homage to Square's Chrono series. We don't want to be hounded with another C&D. On top of that, recreating CE seems a bit ... narcissistic? Using it for inspiration is perfectly fine, but I'd rather not have a direct ripoff with only slight variations in names and whatnot. The same goes for Chrono Trigger.

The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas

And with the project only a couple of days old, we already have our first dispute.

I agree with Boo and Kodokami; Crimson Echoes has been done. Time to try something new, rather than recycling the old.

::Suppresses a random outbreak of story-bits::

On a more serious note, programmers are liable to be the thing in shortest supply here. I can count on my hands the number of people who dabble in coding that I know read this board: myself, utunnels, Ramsus, PSZ, and I think there's someone else who does app development as a day job. There were more before the C&D, but a knowledge of SNES assembly hacking does not necessarily translate into the ability to create a game engine in a modern high-level language. Ramsus is seldom seen here anymore, I have a full plate with my other game engine project (which some of you here are aware of) and a day job that mostly consists of writing boring CRUD[1] database programs, and the others may not have the time, the spoons[2], or the interest to get involved. Getting programmers is therefore likely to require branching out beyond the Chrono community, which makes a retread of Crimson Echoes even less attractive.

[1]An acronym for Create, Read, Update, Delete, not a value judgement (although sometimes it feels like one)
[2]The Spoon Theory