Author Topic: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)  (Read 33528 times)

Thought

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2013, 06:30:56 pm »
Tush, the thing is, turning CT:CE into just Crimson Echoes requires a metric crapton of work. Why go through all that in order to create something that's just a step away from the original source? If people want to play CE, they can find a way to do so as is. What's the benefit that the team would get out of all their hard work?

As for working with the fan community as directly a you propose, I'd propose that a good game is a bit like a magic trick or like a sausage: the consumer is happier not knowing what does into it.

As Alfador said, a project like this would need talent beyond the community. Thus a leader would be needed with connections beyond the community. Connections, talent, vision, and a passionate drive: that's a tall order.

Kodokami

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2013, 06:39:23 pm »
On a more serious note, programmers are liable to be the thing in shortest supply here. I can count on my hands the number of people who dabble in coding that I know read this board: myself, utunnels, Ramsus, PSZ, and I think there's someone else who does app development as a day job. There were more before the C&D, but a knowledge of SNES assembly hacking does not necessarily translate into the ability to create a game engine in a modern high-level language. Ramsus is seldom seen here anymore, I have a full plate with my other game engine project (which some of you here are aware of) and a day job that mostly consists of writing boring CRUD[1] database programs, and the others may not have the time, the spoons[2], or the interest to get involved. Getting programmers is therefore likely to require branching out beyond the Chrono community, which makes a retread of Crimson Echoes even less attractive.

A program like RPG Maker or GameMaker Studios could help simplify that process. I have access to both, and GameMaker even allows exports to the other devices (for a fee).

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2013, 06:52:49 pm »
The idea was to portray the story as is, but removing the Chrono references, and polishing it with newer forms of ideas

And with the project only a couple of days old, we already have our first dispute.
There's no harm in it.  :wink: Always best to set things clear and find what works for everyone, before you work hard on a project only to find it stagnates at the end stages. Besides, despite the fact that proposition would lose here, I still believe I have a place to state my opinions which -- even if not taken -- would somehow benefit the discussion (say, themes, or characters, or concepts, etc.). Sometimes great art begins with great arguments.  8)

Tush, the thing is, turning CT:CE into just Crimson Echoes requires a metric crapton of work. Why go through all that in order to create something that's just a step away from the original source? If people want to play CE, they can find a way to do so as is. What's the benefit that the team would get out of all their hard work?
Fine, then. I take your point. (I'm still kinda disappointed, though...)

As for working with the fan community as directly a you propose, I'd propose that a good game is a bit like a magic trick or like a sausage: the consumer is happier not knowing what does into it.
Here I would disagree. This is only true for consumers who are indoctrinated to "simply accept" what comes their way are aren't fond of going the unconventional route unless "everyone's doing it". The consumers you're speaking about are usually those who are often used to the barrage of closed-source programs and, despite their annoyances with it, re-wire themselves to simply accept it.

I'm certainly not those kind of people. I'm a born rebel. I make choices as most people would do with their groceries (like, picking up an apple and considering it only after checking if it's fresh, and checking the price tag, etc.) and I realize that there are a whole lot of people like me out there (many of whom work as reviewers and critics, and even creative productions and marketing). Working with "just any crap" won't work for us. Consumer won't consider something if it doesn't work for them. Plenty these days opt either for simplicity, fun or freedom. Many go for "efficiency", which is why I'm selective about what I use in the first place (and if it doesn't work for me, so long as it's Open and community-influenced, then I'll HELP them get better, as I've helped Synfig and the like). Working with OpenSource developers, like those who programmed Plume Creator, has shown me enough how important creative feedback is between phases rather than after the final product is done, because nobody knows the product better than the ones who will essentially consume it (or the programmers who "dog-feed" it, like Microsoft workers). Sure, once in a while you're gonna get PATHETIC responses, like "why can't this turtle fly", but often the kinds of feedback you get is so out-there that even the developers inside often scratch their heads wondering, "Why didn't I think of this before?" You couldn't possibly imagine how much a single contribution from a community member can benefit so many people out there, especially with the professional development of Blender and all its countless plugins and scripts.

This is often why a lot of developers (at least the emerging kind) often work with the consumers, asking for advice and brainstorming. Not to please them, mind you, but to get ideas on how to make things better.

Why?

Because no matter how right you think you are, there are plenty of times you're absolutely wrong. And nobody knows this better than myself (and Square Enix... well, probably).

As Alfador said, a project like this would need talent beyond the community. Thus a leader would be needed with connections beyond the community. Connections, talent, vision, and a passionate drive: that's a tall order.
Which is why we need to balance: We need the best of community, as well as the best of development professionals. Here, let's not regress into the old-fashioned, traditional approach to business. Instead, because we're born from community first and foremost, community itself -- despite a professional team we have -- can help propel us further. Here, we look no further than the inception of Celtx (which has... really regressed in its business model, but it began from a pretty awesome phase first) and Canonical (who, despite their recent transition to newer projects, have always worked closely with the community, which essentially helped them do the impossible).

A program like RPG Maker or GameMaker Studios could help simplify that process. I have access to both, and GameMaker even allows exports to the other devices (for a fee).
Other options to explore would definitely be Unity and Blender Game Engine -- both of which are free, unless you really want those Pro features.

But that doesn't answer our biggest question: what platforms are we targeting? PC / Consoles? Web? Mobile?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 06:58:09 pm by tushantin »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2013, 07:08:53 pm »
But that doesn't answer our biggest question: what platforms are we targeting? PC / Consoles? Web? Mobile?

I'd say PC or Mobile. We could even attempt to get it hosted, like in say, Steam. Or some other site.

Thought

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2013, 07:14:17 pm »
Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?

Tush, our second dispute?

You know me. You know I have a list, an essay, a book, of arguments supporting my stance, and I'd be happy to discuss it further if you'd like, but I'm not really sure if now is the time (or if there ever will be). We don't even have a team to make the decision, and even once we do, it will be up to them if they even want to hear my arguments. But I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you (or that I agree with you :P ) if I didn't respond.

... ... ...

Okay, I am a horrible person, but I can't resist giving at least one sentence in response. A good story will do things to readers that the readers would never do to themselves: the team has to have the freedom to do those horrible, delightful, wonderful, terrible things to the fans.

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2013, 07:34:06 pm »
Tush, our second dispute?
What! Aw, geez! You guys say it like I'm some mortal enemy of yours! XD I'm just venting my concerns, is all!

Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?
The major difference is processing power, and the capability of your "chosen tool" to port either ways. In fact, I'm currently in the process of making a design document for a personal game that would play in every platform imaginable (even on a bicycle). However, the target decision would also mean you need to optimize your resources and gameplay accordingly.

In that sense, on the art side, I'm always willing to help. Depending on your chosen target and toolset, we can decide on the gameplay and art-assets quality. Here, Alfador can chime in with the technical aspects.

There's also the "consumer choice" you need to consider: CT like games are popular on mobiles. But would the modern generation play it on their full-powered PC? Well, there are ways to make them play it, but again we'll need to get creative on how to optimize gameplay to modern standards.

You know me. You know I have a list, an essay, a book, of arguments supporting my stance, and I'd be happy to discuss it further if you'd like, but I'm not really sure if now is the time (or if there ever will be). We don't even have a team to make the decision, and even once we do, it will be up to them if they even want to hear my arguments. But I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you (or that I agree with you :P ) if I didn't respond.
Hey, if I can't duel with a master, how will I ever learn?  :wink:

But in either case, I actually encourage you to defend your stance. Not because arguments are cathartic, but because it helps me challenge my own perceptions and essentially hone my insights and intelligence, so I can offer the community better stuff (again, this I gather from interface designing on softwares with feedback from other artists, developers and consumers alike). Each information laid on the table (forget the rhetorics) can help both of us evaluate our opinions and what's at stake here, which will make sure we always take the best decision possible together.



Anywho, I'm going to sleep. But before I go, I leave you guys some questions to ponder out:

1) What platforms are we targeting?
2) How do we intend to monetize? What's our business model, and how are we distributing?
3) Depending on platform targets, what engines and toolkits will we be using? How flexible are they to allow people to create stuff rather than tools?
4) Who will begin the Design Document? Where? How?

And now, to the point...

1) What is the story about? Describe in only three sentences.
2) What is the synopsis of the story? Within one paragraph.
3) Who is the protagonist? Within one paragraph.
4) What is the game, environment and setting like? What will it look like? What will it feel like?
5) How will we produce the game? What are our goals?
6) What's so special about the game? What and how will it sell?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 07:47:00 pm by tushantin »

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2013, 08:01:35 pm »
Acacia, Alfador, and other knowledgeable individuals: how much difference is there, now days, between mobile and PC? Would there be a way to design a game that would work on both with minimal changes?

Mobile is still a lot more limited than PC. Developing for most mobile devices requires special software kits, and most of these kits cost $$$—iOS is especially bad. You are not going to be able to run code written for the PC on a mobile device unless you have several intermediate layers to paper over the gaps.

Overall, HTML5 (+ Javascript) is the only thing I can think of that can target both the three major PC operating systems and a reasonable selection of devices using the same, or even almost the same, codebase. Also, even if it could be done, I'm not sure it's a good idea—a user interface that's good for devices is not necessarily good for PCs, and vice-versa.

Another possibility would be to target the Ouya console, assuming it gets off the ground.

I would suggest not using RPGMaker or similar. Why? Because packages like that tend to be restricted in how you can deploy them (typically, they're Windows-only—keep in mind that tushantin and I are Linux users, and there's gotta be someone around here with a Mac. WINE is too unstable to be an acceptable workaround.) Not to mention that the more your kit implements for you, the more time you typically have to spend working around it to make it do what you want, as opposed to what the people who wrote it thought you would want to do. Furthermore, using a kit that costs money reduces the size of your developer pool, unless you can pay for their copies too.

There are a bunch of other things that need to be hammered out, too. Language of implementation? 2D or 3D graphics? My current project is Lua and 2D (and IMAO, not only do 3D graphics not add much to an RPG, but flashy graphics aren't the main thing people playing an indie-developed RPG are going to be looking for. Plus, I get motion-sick playing 3D games unless the camera is immobile). Tushantin seems to want to go 3D (and using Blender would suggest Python as an implementation language). Others may have other ideas.

idiotekque

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2013, 08:09:07 pm »
Wow, this thread took off. o.o

I'd just like to say that I support the idea of being inspired by CT/CC/CE, but by no means support copying CE. Like someone said, if fans want to play CE, they can. This should be something of itself, carrying on the the Chrono legacy without using or just re-purposing its characters and story (such as just renaming things). Hell, does the protagonist need to be silent? As much as I love CT and CC, I say no.

Besides that, derail away! I'll go and change the topic title to something more appropriate... lol.

idiotekque

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Oh, and I agree that using RPG Maker is a bad idea. For one, any RPG Maker game on Steam Greenlight is disregarded by many voters. It's an uphill battle. Also, it's a very, very limited program (especially when it comes to... resolution).

It's a nice program, I love it, I use it, but there are simply better methods to use if you have the opportunity. For me, a one man team, I stick to RPG Maker VX Ace on my original game, lol. But yeah, if we have a whole team, I don't think that's a good option.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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So if I may weigh in...

I'm a little nervous about blindly jumping into such a project. How many projects has the community (and others) tried to get off the ground, only to crash and burn? I don't want to waste my time, nor do I want to waste anyone else's. I'm currently in school for a second master's degree, plus I'm trying to find time to write in what little down time I do have. On top of that, I'm about two weeks into learning the Python coding language (and I've started to at least look at C++), and it's going to take a lot of time and effort to get fluent. Oh, and I have a wife and daughter to worry about. I want to be involved, but only if this is a genuinely serious idea with a dedicated team.

For those familiar with project management and the realistic expectations that come with it, we need a unified vision, a dedication to see it through, and resources. Passion enough will not carry us through; passion alone will lead to disappointment and will fade in time. We need to work with a sense of urgency, an endgame in clear sight. We need to plan accordingly, and design expected deliverables. At the end of the day, every project comes down to:

Time
Money (Budget)
Quality

I'm glad that my project management and Masters of Business Administration courses are finally paying off, hahaha... Let me just throw it out there so we have a clear mission to adhere to:

"[INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] aims to create a fully integrated and complete time-traveling RPG for release in late-2014. This game is designed to follow in the vein of Square-Enix's Chrono Trigger series, and as such will embody many of the themes and nostalgic factors that make the game the pinnacle of the 16-bit video game era.

Our intent is to assemble a dedicated team of writers, spriters, mappers, programmers, and other creative roles to create a functional demo before 12/31/2013; on 1/1/2014, [INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] will "go public" and begin a crowd-funded Kickstarter campaign to raise monetary funds to begin full-scale production.

As of 6/1/2013, all team members agree to work on a purely pro-bono basis, although future potential profits of [INSERT PROJECT NAME HERE] may be allocated to team members at a later date."

(Edited for grammar.)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 01:15:49 am by Boo the Gentleman Caller »

Acacia Sgt

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Yeah, I agree this does needs to have at least some assurance that it can take off the ground. I'm also kinda wary of this, though at the same time a bit excited, if it does come through.

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Cross Fan Remake?
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2013, 07:24:32 am »
Wow, this thread took off. o.o
And you love every moment of it. <3

Anywho, regarding remaking CE, games are remade left and right everywhere, from Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls to Thief. So I don't get what's the fuss behind remaking CE. But if the majority don't want to do it, then I can't say anything against that, can I?

That said since we're aiming for commercial product, RPGMaker doesn't even count as a professional and adaptable toolkit. So let's just forget that one...

But we COULD use an equivalent called RPG.js which, though resembles RPGMaker, is still open source and hence highly adaptable. But even then we'll need a javascript coder to make it work for our design.

I still vote for Blender based, though. :)

Boo, as much as I agree that the project would need structure if there's any hope for it to see the light of day, I still believe that art without passion is some crap nobody wants. Why would anyone like your work if you don't like it yourself? In that regard, count me in as the team's Springtime Of Youth Officer so I can encourage moral support of the team. WE CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE, YES WE CAN!

But hey, let's not forget the primary target of this: money. We can't hope to accomplish this without money. We can't afford to not make royalties from sales. So we'll need to rack our brains at the important questions: What are we targeting? What platforms are the most adaptable? What niches haven't been filled already? What are competitions not doing right? What Supplies are consumers looking for that don't exist yet? What would get them to pay? What about those who manage to get the games for free? (Let's not be Luddite here and force lawsuits down consumers throats; we'll take a more creative approach, and I know exactly how.)

That said, before the project each begins, we still need to answer other important questions to get clarity. Scroll up to the questions Alfador and I asked earlier.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 09:08:36 am by tushantin »

tushantin

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I'll start laying out questions and resources, and a whole list of options, for the communities to work with (each category in posts).


Development:

1) What are we targeting?
2) Depending on platform targets, what engines and toolkits will we be using?
3) What niches haven't been filled already? Or do we intend to piggy-back on existing genres and models?
4) What are competitions not doing right?
5) What Supplies are consumers looking for that don't exist yet? What would get them to pay?
6) How do we prevent piracy effectively? Should we go with the Angry Birds model?
7) How do we intend to monetize? What's our business model, and how are we distributing?
8.) Who will begin the Design Document? Where? How?


Story and Gameplay:

9) What is the story about? Describe in only three sentences.
10) What is the synopsis of the story? Within one paragraph.
11) Who is the protagonist? Within one paragraph.
12) What is the game, environment and setting like? What will it look like? What will it feel like? 2D or 3D, or something in the middle (like CC)?
13) How will we produce the game? What are our goals?
14) What's so special about the game? What and how will it sell?
15) What Language of implementation can we afford currently, based on our targets?


Practicality:

16) How much Time can we afford to invest in this? What are our (realistic) deadlines?
17) What is our budget of production? What kind of rewards will the developers (writers, artists, programmers, etc.) will obtain from this?
18.) What quality is our end-goal?

alfadorredux

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Point 6 is easy to answer: you can't. Any "piracy prevention" mechanism can be broken, and once it's broken once, it's broken for all time and for everyone. Making more than a token effort in that direction just inconveniences legitimate purchasers.

tushantin

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Point 6 is easy to answer: you can't. Any "piracy prevention" mechanism can be broken, and once it's broken once, it's broken for all time and for everyone. Making more than a token effort in that direction just inconveniences legitimate purchasers.
Which is why I mentioned we need to get creative when handling such issues. :)


Game Design Inspirations:


(Note: Most, if not all, of these examples are Android / iOS based, but may also work on Web and Desktops)

[youtube]DS7TtxBeh_o[/youtube]

[youtube]xjY8BNQgLT8[/youtube]

[youtube]blooun8ndUs[/youtube]

[youtube]_tZFttw1M9w[/youtube]

[youtube]ck4UaAOuE4s[/youtube]

[youtube]zoR6-Jai4j8[/youtube]

[youtube]1yoP1YXiKRY[/youtube]

[youtube]8F7hNKrb1Tw[/youtube]

[youtube]ul3IAEkv6Wc[/youtube]