Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)

[skylark]

[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.

To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.

Just my 2˘.

[tushantin]

If I can have 2˘ from at least 50 people here, I'd have a dollar! 

BTW how about a game like this? http://appadvice.com/review/anime-turns-into-a-shooting-game-in-inheritage-boundary-of-existence

[Acacia Sgt]

To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.

Just my 2˘.

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Well, it would depend on how the time traveling would be handled. After all, trying to have two proactive parties meddling with time at the same time relatively speaking... well, and I guess also how the switching parties would be handled as well. Like, as soon as one makes a change, changing to the other party will have the changes already or something... that kind of stuff I suppose.

Not to mention keeping track of all of it to make a coherent progression of events.

[Lennis]

[1] Hell, I'll throw an idea off right here: we follow a young prince flung forward in time as he searches through several eras for his childhood sweetheart, who fell into the same vortex, but ended up somewhere (and somewhen) else. The choices the player makes determine what happens when he's reunited with her, whether he becomes a paladin, an assassin, or a powerful summoner-mage, and what happens when he discovers that an evil extraterrestrial empire has been tampering with the history of his world (does he fight them and try to erase their existence, try to make friends and persuade them to leave, or assassinate the emperor and place himself at the top of the hierarchy?) The homage to Chrono (and in particular to two of the better-loved characters from Trigger) is obvious, but at the same time, it's its own story.

To add on Alfadorredeux's idea, is the prince the only one who needs to change? How would the girl do things? Is she a rough-and-tumble tomboy with a temper, or the quiet and kind mage-type? Would she simply wait for the prince to save her, or would she be proactive? Maybe she ends up in the past, where an ancestor of hers does something that gives her family a black name. Does she try and prevent that from happening? Would her efforts unintentionally undermine the prince's efforts to save her? I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe have a dual-hero system where you control both characters at differing points, and have both parties meet and join up eventually.

Just my 2˘.

I like this idea, but let me suggest that you move away from princes and princesses and ground this story in a more contemporary setting - like in the world we know.  This would be more of a science-fiction story than a pure fantasy, but I think time-travel lends itself better to that genre - Chrono notwithstanding.  A really bold storyteller could introduce situations that challenge conventional notions of virtue by not shying away from hard questions - two protagonists that take differing views on how history unfolded, and act according to those beliefs.  For example, if you could prevent 9/11, would you?  What would be the consequences of doing so?  For that matter, the 2000 presidential election was so close that the interference of a time-traveler could easily change the final result.  Would there be unintended consequences from an Al Gore presidency?  Would George W. Bush challenge him again in 2004 and win?  Would Barack Obama be able to defeat George Bush in 2008, assuming that 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan never happened?  How would all of this reflect on peace in the middle-east or on Russia's desire to restore its former sphere of influence?  There are many directions and themes the storyteller could explore while in no way linking themselves to an existing IP.

As to the gameplay, consider a Metal Gear Solid approach to changing history rather than balls-to-the-wall gunplay.  Cinematically, MGS is also a good approach to take with a time-traveling story.

Hmmm...  Now that I think about it, what I just described could only be done competently by a AAA development studio.  Oh well.  I tried.   

[Thought]

I don't really anyone here was saying nor thinking "Time travel plot > characters", though.

Oh, if no one has, then I will: a time travel setting (time travel isn't a plot) is more important than characters, insofar as we want a game that feels like Chrono Trigger.

There are three essential components to any story: plot, chracter, and setting.

CT's plot is fairly standard, actually: the world is in danger by a monster, the hero has to go fight the monster. It's St. George and the Dragon writ large. That said, the monster IS a beloved one. A CT-esq game without a Lavos-esq big bad is like Arkham Horror without a lovecraftian monster. But that's taking us back to setting.

The CT characters, while fun, didn't really create the feel of the game either. We have the silent hero, the rebelious princess, the bespeckled mentor/inventor, the swordsman who wants to restore honor, the barbarian who wants to protect her people, the robot who wants to be human, and the wizard who wants to find a lost love.

The setting (magic, time travel, a monster, Zeal, etc) are what made CT feel CT.

I mentioned before that CT did interesting things: another thing it did was have a single PC from every playable era (except the present, which got 3). That also helped us get familiar with the eras they were from, so we could love each, even if there really wasn't much to it (future and prehistory). So, here I would definitely say setting begets characters. Want to have 8 different time periods? Then there should be 8 PC's at least.

To be fair, adding characters is the quickest way to balloon a story. 8 PC's would essentially make this Wheel of Time. If we want something more manageable, fewer PCs is a good way to go, so also then fewer time periods, and a smaller setting.

The problem with enjoying the process of creation is that you end up with a lot of unfinished projects lying around, and more are always turning up to whack you over the head.

Nah, that's simply a problem with not finishing things, which can be caused by not having enough ideas.

[alfadorredux]

@skylark, etc: Yes, logically the girl has her own character arc (I'm not sure she should actually be a princess—a little class disparity might make things even more interesting). Suddenly I have this image in mind of her starting out in the future as an orphan with no relevant education and no obvious prospects and ends up as Madame President or Madame CEO or General, Ma'am!...and then the prince turns up, flips her life upside down, and has the temerity to ask for her help... We end up with two contrasting approaches to being flung forward in time: she makes the best of where and when she is, and becomes successful, while he can't let go of his past and ends up with Issues. And with her arc being confined to the time period in which she lands, we don't have the problem of two of them messing with time simultaneously, although it becomes more interesting if she (unlike the people around her) is aware of the changes he's making and decides that he's a problem...

@Lennis: I don't think it's a good idea to go topical. Not everyone in the world is interested in US politics, and no matter what "take" you have on them, you're going to piss off part of your potential audience. The game you're describing needs an AAA studio because its main audience isn't the same as the main audience for the Chrono games (I won't say there's no overlap, but I would expect it to be small). And the basic idea isn't much different from all the old what-if-we'd-done-X-in-WWII SF stories...

@Thought: I disagree—none of the setting ideas are really anything new either. I mean, Zeal is Atlantis, time travel as a concept is more than a hundred years old, the monster has analogues in everything from Grendel to the tinfoil-covered flashlight in a certain lackluster episode of the original Star Trek, etc... It's the combination of everything—the setting elements, the characters (who while not massively original each had some screen time to flesh them out), and the plot details—that make CT what it is. A mixture of individually-familiar elements, engagingly arranged.

You end up with unfinished projects if you have lots of additional ideas jumping at you and trying to grab your attention. Either that, or you have to discipline yourself to let most of the new ideas die before they have the chance to live, so that you can finish what you've already started. Either way, a lot of ideas are stillborn.

[idiotekque]

I fully support the idea of giving things a contemporary settings, minus political themes.

When you finish Chrono Chross (the good way), Kid is shown searching through a modern day city, walking along railroad tracks, etc, looking for Serge. In the grand scheme of things, it's pretty random, sure, but I like the idea of game with a more modern settings alongside the time travel theme (because obviously you'll be headed back to the days of swords and magic anyways).

Look at a current game like The Secret World. Granted, it has nothing to do with time travel, but it's an RPG in a modern setting with a very interesting story focused on impossible, supernatural events in a modern setting. It's not all ghosts and spooky creatures either, it's full of almost alien entities, such as the filth, a corrupting, pervasive creature full of disease that spreads its sickness to everything it touches. Not that I'm suggesting we copy anything about it (besides it's setting, which isn't saying much), but I think it's a great game to look at for reference.

Also, through all this talk, I haven't heard anything about an antagonist. Trigger had Lavos. Cross had Lynx (and Fate). If this new game is simply... battling time, and event/s that will or have happened, it's gonna be really vague and unimpressive. We need a really, really, really terrible antagonist. We knew we HAD to defeat Lavos. He was gonna eat the damn world! We WANTED to kill Lynx. We watched him kill Kid's family! We need a similar creature to hate in this game. Beyond that, I think we need a strong, dark individual with motives of spreading something extremely dangerous through the world. He SUCCEEDS at this, and we see the devastation he's wrought. Without copying TSW's filth creature, I think it would be a powerful, scary element for this antagonist to spread a similar, infectious blight of death and disease across the world, corrupting all it comes in contact with. It would be a pretty grand undertaking, especially if this enemy could traverse time periods, leading to very tense encounters.

Anyways, just brainstorming, but we definitely need a good antagonist.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd think it would be interesting to have an antagonist that isn't quite evil, at least not initially, and that it's by the protagonist's actions that it gets that way.

Like say, kinda like when the Reptite Timeline came and went in Crimson Echoes, but this hypothetical antagonist wouldn't "give up" easily, so to speak, like the Xamoltan did. Some sort of existentialist theme, I'd guess.

[Nangbaby]

While it's nice to see such enthusiasm...a lot of this seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, the story is critical any game project, but as much as I love the stories of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, what I liked more was their structure, their battle systems, the multitude of elements that could only be described as "gameplay," character graphics, music, and general "atmosphere."  Getting all these these elements separately would require teams of people, and pulling them into a cohesive whole requires even more work.

If you all pull this off, it would be awesome.   I really don't have anything of value to add.  The only throwaway suggestion I could make is if there is a combo-magic system in place, then maybe it can take a cue from Ogre Battle 64 and Breath of Fire IV and have the combo elements sort of enhance each other (Fire + Wind = Towering Inferno).  Combo heals could also remove negative status effects the way combo heals could in OB64.  In general, I think looking outside of the CT/CC box would be good from a gameplay perspective as these could enhance the game.

I've got too many ideas of my own I'm forgetting as I write to do anything but naysay other people until the end of time.

[idiotekque]

That's nice in theory, but it practice it's more engaging to the engineer of the antagonist rather than the player who's coming at the game with no prior knowledge of things. You need an antagonist who you can both hate with a passion, yet still have a subtle theme of understanding of his nature and why he does what he does. Lynx was a very complicated antagonist, and having the player inside his body was also a very, very powerful device to twist the player's view of things.

The Pendragon series (a 10 book YA novel series) did great with its antagonist too, although a lot of the writing wasn't the greatest. The antagonist in those books was pure evil, travelling to different worlds and different times to influence the key moment in that world's lifetime that would put it in the wrong direction. i.e. He traveled to the past in one book to when the Hindenburg went down... to actually prevent the disaster, because there were Nazi agents onboard that eventually lead to a holocaust in the US. Through all the evil he committed, though, he had a twisted, yet in his eyes, noble objective in mind, to unite all worlds (instead of keeping them separate) under one banner, and create a perfect society. He was totally (pardon my French) ****ed in the head, of course, but that's never a bad thing in an antagonist.

And, with respect, the gameplay of CT and CC was good but nothing all that special. It's the story that wrapped me into those games, not the gameplay.

[alfadorredux]

In my experience, some people like their villains to be extremely and irredeemably evil, and others like them to be people who honestly believe that they're doing the right thing, but chose the wrong methodology or just had the bad luck to end up on the wrong side. Black and white versus shades of grey.

Chrono Trigger manages to kinda-sorta-maybe-almost offer both at once: on the one hand we have Lavos, who is utter and irredeemable evil (but not so much a character as a force of nature), and on the other hand, we have Magus, villain turned reluctant hero, and his tragic and messy past. In Cross, Lynx really fills the Magus niche, not the Lavos niche, complete with having a tragic past of his own—we just don't find out about it until after he's dead.

Really, CT only works because Lavos is treated as a force of nature. If they'd tried to make it work as a character, they would have ended up with Final Fantasy V, whose weakest point is its antagonist.

(Full disclosure: I'm a firm believer in the shades-of-grey type of antagonist. Having a character who's evil for the sake of being evil makes me feel like I'm being manipulated by the creator of the story. It's clumsy.)

[idiotekque]

You're totally misunderstanding me. I never suggested that having an antagonist who is being evil just to be evil. That's just weak writing. There needs to be an antagonist that elicits real emotion in the player, and that isn't easily achieved by just making them a blurry grey thing. The correct balance is having an antagonist who you can strongly hate, while still having in the back of your mind "Who is he? Why is he doing what he's doing?" as opposed to just "Wow, this guy is a total douche.", and Lynx was excellent in this regard.

Fate and the Time Devourer sort of took up the Lavos role in CC, in that Fate was the twisted, unspeakable yet (in some people's eyes) amoral scientific creation, while the Time Devourer was nature enraged and wreaking vengeance on a corrupt mankind. One was wrong in what it did (and had the capacity of being hated, yet almost in a tragic way because that's the path humanity takes), while another was perhaps was the embodiment of righteous fury, but was malevolent and destructive, crushing even innocents in its wake (which is clearly something that strikes a powerful chord in the player's emotions).

The similarity in these antagonists is that you can indeed HATE them. They stir up the fire inside saying "They need to be stopped." and drive a player's interest in both gameplay and story, but they aren't so shallow of characters that it's simply a "being bad just cuz" thing. That said, I wouldn't call them gray area antagonists either.

[Acacia Sgt]

To be honest, I don't see that feeling hate for them is a necessity to also have the need to stop them. The latter is a must since they're the antagonists, and so there needs to be a sense of opposition, and while making us hate them is one way, I don't see it as THE way.

[idiotekque]

If you're writing a Ludlum novel, sure. If you're making an RPG that is the spiritual successor of the Chrono series, I disagree.

I understand your perspective (because I don't necessarily disagree with it in every setting), but I don't feel it fits this circumstance.

[Acacia Sgt]

A what novel? Either way, I'd also disagree that for being a spiritual successor to Chrono, it needs the hated antagonist.

Well anyway, my forte is not storytelling, so what would I know anyway...