A bit confused

[Soyovar]

Hey, I'm new here. If this has been discussed, just point me in the right direction.

Is Time as it exists in the Chrono Trigger dimension linear or non-linear? A better way to phrase the question might be: are all instances of time traveled to (65 million b.c., 12,000 b.c., etc) part of the same timeline? Considering that what the party did in the past affects the future (note: Robo helping with Fiona's Forest, restoring Cyrus, leaving the moonstone to store energy), it would have to be linear. This can be proven by the fact that when you return to 600 a.d. after getting Robo from Fiona's Shine in 1000 a.d., you can still see the old Robo working the fields.

My dilemma is this: If the above is all true, then Lavos could never truly be stopped. Lavos arrived on the planet in 65 million b.c. If they had killed him at any instance of time after that, he would still have existed at any point in time before they killed him.

The only way to dismantle the paradox is to assume one of two things.

Either:
1. There are multiple time-lines and each instance of time traveled to is following a different time-line.
2. Lavos exists outside of time.

Choice one cannot be true because Fiona's Shine in 1000 a.d. would not exist. Cyrus would still be an angry ghost in 1000 a.d. The sunstone would not exist in any instances after they had dropped it off back in 65 million b.c.

Choice two cannot be true either because once the group had defeated Lavos, he would have ceased to exist at all, thus rendering the whole adventure nonexistant, Chrono would have no reason to save the world, because he already did it. If then he had no reason to save the world, he wouldn't have gone on the adventure in the first place, thus Lavos would still exist.

Maybe I'm missing something. I just really confused myself when I typed that.

-Soyovar

Note: I just realized in reading this over that in order for choice one to be true, the party would also be screwing over multiple timelines... they would have killed lavos in one timeline and then stayed in that one in order to ensure that lavos wouldn't bother them anymore. Thus Lavos would destroy earth in all other timelines.

[ZeaLitY]

Choice 2 is correct, and it is because the Grandfather Paradox does not exist in the Chrono series. Time is linear. Have you seen the article on the Axioms and Corollaries of Temporal Transforms?

[kazmaka]

that article can get a bit confusing, you should kinda some up the grandfather paradox not affecting CT with a simple line like :

"in CT anything you do in the past happens in the past irrelevant of whether it is possible for you to do it in the future".

did you ever figure out a reason for that? as i said that article you mentioned gets real confusing.

[Legend of the Past]

Lavos exists in his own Pocket Dimension, a small dimension outside the Timeline. But even if it is not so: Lavos existed in any point in time, yes, but he dies in 1999. He was destroyed in the future, and never fully awakened in the past. Therefore, Lavos' defeat is very possible.

[Soyovar]

I read through the parts of the article I could understand... some of the theories I was too lazy to work out in my head.

Another question then.

Am I correct in assuming that the original time Crono woke up in has been sent to the DBT and the one they arrive in at the end of the game is really a new timeline created by the defeat of Lavos?

And am I also correct in assuming that the creation of those new timelines is the reason they needed the Chrono Trigger to get Crono back? Because the group could not really go "back" to a previously visited timeline? They had to use the Chrono Trigger to go to a specific point in their own past, rather than a specific point in the Entity's past.

Josh.

[teh Schala]

I'm guessing you haven't played Chrono Cross...  It deals with different timelines and the effects of doing this sort of stuff.  Miguel (whom some suspect to be Crono himself, about 20 years older) explains that "every choice you make negates one possible timeline, eradicating it from existence, and brings about another."  That's paraphrased.

So yes, the Dark Future was sent to the Tesseract when Crono & co defeated Lavos.  Similarly, on a smaller scale, the timeline in which Guardia Castle does NOT have the Rainbow Shell was sent to the Tesseract when the party brings them the Rainbow Shell in 600 AD.  NORMALLY in that instance, Marle would have been brought up knowing there was a Rainbow Shell in the castle, and her mind & memories should have been updated to include that information.  However, due to time traveler's immunity, she didn't realize that the Rainbow Shell was now there in 1000 AD.  (Lucca reminds her while King Guardia is on trial.)  Thus, we can infer that since Marle's memory and existence wasn't updated to include the new information, the entire party would thus retain their memories intact after the adventure, even though the entire timeline had been altered.

[Legend of the Past]

I read through the parts of the article I could understand... some of the theories I was too lazy to work out in my head.

Another question then.

Am I correct in assuming that the original time Crono woke up in has been sent to the DBT and the one they arrive in at the end of the game is really a new timeline created by the defeat of Lavos?

And am I also correct in assuming that the creation of those new timelines is the reason they needed the Chrono Trigger to get Crono back? Because the group could not really go "back" to a previously visited timeline? They had to use the Chrono Trigger to go to a specific point in their own past, rather than a specific point in the Entity's past.

Josh.

Hmm, if I understand correctly, you think that after Crono owned Lavos, and you see him wake up you're actually at the day of the fair.

Well, that makes no sense for a few reasons.

1. King Guardia informs Crono he needs to be punished for his crimes. Therefore, unless Crono is some kind of unknown bandit or brigand in disguise, he's talking about Crono's alleged kidnapping of Marle, which happaned after Crono woke up.

2.King Guardia tells Marle to enjoy the last night of the fair, and Crono wakes up in the first day of the fair. Unless the fair goes on for one day... Something that makes no sense within the game itself.

[Soyovar]

Hmm, if I understand correctly, you think that after Crono owned Lavos, and you see him wake up you're actually at the day of the fair.

No, I was just trying to say that the timeline they arrived at in the end is a completely new one from the one Crono was in at the beginning of the game.

And yes, I haven't played Chrono Cross... I sort of dismissed it as not really being related to Chrono Trigger. I guess it was.

Thanks for not calling me stupid guys. This is pretty fun.

But my second question about the Entity's past vs. the group's past is unanswered. And this brings up another question. If all of these timelines are being sent to the DBT, do all of them belong to a single Entity? Crono and Co. are writing new history for new timelines all over the place... is each new timeline automatically connected with the Entity?

Josh.

[teh Schala]

is each new timeline automatically connected with the Entity?

I don't usually do one-word answers, but...  Yes.

[dan]

But my second question about the Entity's past vs. the group's past is unanswered. And this brings up another question. If all of these timelines are being sent to the DBT, do all of them belong to a single Entity? Crono and Co. are writing new history for new timelines all over the place... is each new timeline automatically connected with the Entity?

Unless I'm mistaken, the current theory is that the Entity exists outside of time, so it's the same guy/thing/cat/whatever in each timeline.

[Sentenal]

The most accepted theory is that then entity is the planet, so it would not exist outside of time.

[Sir Frog]

The entity is a MacGuffin.  Don't focus too much on it.  In fact, I have proven to myself that the entity cannot exist as many have come to think of it (i.e., as a sentient being with a plan to change history).

[GrayLensman]

The entity is a MacGuffin.  Don't focus too much on it.  In fact, I have proven to myself that the entity cannot exist as many have come to think of it (i.e., as a sentient being with a plan to change history).

I don't suppose you could share your proof with the rest of us?

[Sentenal]

I assume hes getting to that, along with his other theorys.

[AuraTwilight]

And yes, I haven't played Chrono Cross... I sort of dismissed it as not really being related to Chrono Trigger. I guess it was.

It's not. It clarifies alot of shiz. Like what happened to Schala.

Unless I'm mistaken, the current theory is that the Entity exists outside of time, so it's the same guy/thing/cat/whatever in each timeline.

The most accepted theory is that then entity is the planet, so it would not exist outside of time.

If you flip through anthropology, it's easy to accept that the physical planet is bound by time, while the Planet's consciousness, the Entity, is transcendant through time.

The entity is a MacGuffin. Don't focus too much on it. In fact, I have proven to myself that the entity cannot exist as many have come to think of it (i.e., as a sentient being with a plan to change history).

Uh Huh.

I don't suppose you could share your proof with the rest of us?

Ditto

I assume hes getting to that, along with his other theorys.

pwnt