Thanks for Crimson Echoes.

[Redline57]

Isn't the limit for video games 25 years? IE, Chips Challenge 2 and its release.


PS. What IS flames of eternity? the website for it claims it is a completely different game than CE, but from what I've also heard, it was simply a hundred versions, each one just changing some text or something small (like a mod where you change one sprite in a game, not really a completely new game). So is it a project to make a Chrono Trigger 3, a sequel to Crimson Echoes, is its a different fan game (like Prophet's Guile), or is it a tweaking of CE?

[Mauron]

Flames of Eternity is a tweaking of CE. I'm not sure how much they've tweaked exactly, but it's still CE at the core.

[CptOvaltine]

Isn't the limit for video games 25 years? IE, Chips Challenge 2 and its release.


PS. What IS flames of eternity? the website for it claims it is a completely different game than CE, but from what I've also heard, it was simply a hundred versions, each one just changing some text or something small (like a mod where you change one sprite in a game, not really a completely new game). So is it a project to make a Chrono Trigger 3, a sequel to Crimson Echoes, is its a different fan game (like Prophet's Guile), or is it a tweaking of CE?

I would have to read up on copyright law, but my guess is if there is a 25 year limit to a copyright, it would only apply to a game/company that decides to let the trademark laps, or has gone out of business. (The Chrono Break trade mark for example) Otherwise games like Super Mario would have a million different versions from a million different developers on every platform imaginable. 

I'm positive that SE will renew the Chrono Trigger trademark when applicable.

[Razig]

I'm positive that SE will renew the Chrono Trigger trademark when applicable.

And then throw it back in the vault until it's ready to expire again.

[alfadorredux]

The length of copyright terms is a painfully complicated subject (it varies from country to country, depends on when the work was created, by whom, and what type of work it is). As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties). The only way that will change is if the copyright holders specifically release it into the public domain, assuming that "public domain" is a valid concept in Japan (there are countries where it isn't).

The music licensing thing is a special case.

And trademark is a completely different pot of eels.

[Acacia Sgt]

As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties).

Not after release, but after the death of the author. So it could take quite a lot longer than fifty years.

The only way that will change is if the copyright holders specifically release it into the public domain, assuming that "public domain" is a valid concept in Japan (there are countries where it isn't).

It does. In Japan, everything before 1953 is considered Public Domain.

And trademark is a completely different pot of eels.

Ah, this is certainly the kicker. Copyright expiring matters little if the Trademark keeps getting renewed. Which isn't hard to do because one condition for the validity of trademarks is usage. So long a trademark is used before it expires (which is usually an X number of years), it gets renewed.

[alfadorredux]

As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties).

Not after release, but after the death of the author. So it could take quite a lot longer than fifty years.

Some countries have special provisions for works created by corporations (since they don't die like normal people). I get the impression Japan is one of them.

[Acacia Sgt]

Some countries have special provisions for works created by corporations (since they don't die like normal people). I get the impression Japan is one of them.

Japan has both. The "After publication" applies if there's not even one individual claimed as author of the work. Honestly, I don't know how that applies to video games, since for those we know who created them.

[Redline57]

This is the problem isnt it? These copyrights are in this case becoming a hindrence. You're not going to release a new Chrono game, so let us!

I for one don't give a crap about copyright laws, I blame california for that. My favorite show was an anime called Candy Boy (there's no boys, its about these twin sisters.) Well it was never officially released outside Japan, so nothing in english. In my mind, watching a fansub done by fans or making a DVD subbed is fine, because they had no official product to sell me. Who's gonna drop almost 200$ on an official DVD in a language I can't read? On the other hand, I found a fansubbed Strawberry Panic! episode online. Watched it, liked it, and went and bought the DVDs at the store. So in this case, the fan's meddling NETTED the company extra sales. So these laws are trying to 'protect' the creator in terms of a financial loss. So Crimson Echoes, made for free, actually spreads the love of CT, and as downloadable games are for purchase from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo, this actually boosts their sales in some cases, not hinders. All of us have a ROM of CT and most all of us have a hard copy too, right?

[Acacia Sgt]

For the record, I don't have a Chrono Trigger ROM. What I do own is both a physical copy of Chrono Cross and a digital copy of the same from the Playstation Network. I do have plans to buy the Steam version of Trigger, though.

Anyway, in the case of Crimson Echoes, I would assume it was as much as the issue of downloading a CT ROM to play it as the fact the CE team were using SE's property without their permission. Keep in mind that stuff like fanfics, or fan art, and that sort of stuff, which includes fangames, is technically illegal. Most people let those be since, as you mentioned, these sort of things can be used as free advertising. The thing is, though, that most of these things aren't what they make profits from. Or at least, their main source of profits.

A video game maker may not mind fanfics or fanart, since literary works or art works aren't his main source of income. A fellow video game? That could spell trouble. For CE, keep in mind it would've come out just months after the DS port. Perhaps SE thought that, since people were going to download a CT ROM to try CE (for those that didn't had one yet), they might not bother buying the DS port since they would've already had CT for free from downloading the ROM. Sure, the DS port had stuff added to it, but they might've thought it wouldn't matter. Sacrifice missing out the new content to not having to pay at all, if you will. Or also just download the CTDS ROM. Not everyone is going to "have a ROM and a hard copy too", as you say. Perhaps they even checked how the CTDS sales were going, hence why it took months between the game release (the Japanese version had a built-in English translation, so not even had to wait for the English release to play it and understand it) and the C&D order to arrive.

Granted, all this happened nearly 10 years ago, my memory is not the best in the matters of CE's cancellation. Still, it's not like SE was being completely selfish on this. Or that copyright laws are, for that matter.

[Redline57]

No, Square can suck it. See deez nuts.

That was another point I alluded to, the fact that CE was not a rom, it was art, like a fanfic or fanart. Not their source of income. Relative to Chrono Trigger, Crimson Echoes is unknown, except by true fans. What I'm getting at is that, yes, you can download Chrono Trigger on a ROM opposed to buying it with a digital copy. I did. I do not own a console with ready-installed emulators that can go online and buy stuff (a PS3 or Xbox...3 or 4, whatever). I do however own a hard copy that costs 50$ from Toys R Us in 1995. Some people opposed to buy it may download the CT rom, and its much much more likely THOSE people who will play Crimson Echoes. As of right now, only those like us who know how to use free emulators are gonna play it. I then submit that almost ALL of the people who played Crimson Echoes are A. Those who use ROMs and won't pay Square any money ever anyway, so forget em, nothing you can do. Or B. Fans who own a paid for CT copy and search the net and probably have a ROM (but they already paid square) and then find CE for free. Of group B, if they paid for a digital download, they'd likely pay square or whomever for a copy of Crimson Echoes too. I know I would, and if not for the current legal ramifications, I'd pay the Crimson Echoes team for their work. So if square is listening to this, go ahead and buy Crimson Echoes and resell it. I bet the creators would sell it to you for one penny, keep the profits, we are here cause we are fans.

But no, its their 'no tolerance' crap that says....well since you made this artwork called CE, it was technically from a modified ROM. So does that mean if we reverse engineered the entire Chrono Trigger game it'd be good? I reiterate, we are playing something they CANNOT make money off of at this time, and as nearly the whole fanbase here either would or would not pay for it (hackers vs dedicated fans), they are collecting no money, so what's the problem? If anything they have an opportunity to make money and refused it. I understand why, but any company who officially states this as their policy is blind to copyright. And of course, they aren't. All of these companies are well aware of how many ROMs of their games are online and most of the time either they can't stop it or won't spend the money to stop it. Cue 'laws' of course.

I got a great example. The Subaru Impreza STi and the Mitsubishi EVO. Both are similar fast rally cars. It was known that these two makers had different views on racing stock models. One company would give you a membership to the SCCA and said "go race, thanks for buying our car!" and keep your warranty. The other company actively seeked on the internet (they denied it) for people who claimed to be track racing their car and then would void the warranty. So you COULD race it on a track if you kept your mouth shut, and then took the car in for service.

Same two approaches to copyright shit. Will they let the fans make their own mods to a game they bought? I recall a game called HALF-LIFE. Yeah, we all played it. And what happened? One such mod of the game got PICKED UP by Valve and in time was actually sold in the store. But square? Nooooo. Square has to keep the iron fist approach of 'our policy is ALL copyright is illegal and full force of the law..." etc etc. Maybe if they listend to the fans. I mean since Final Fantasy 7, we got countless sequels, prequels, a freakin movie, and ALL we actually asked for was a remake of JUST the graphics. Shit a remake with FF8 level graphics would have been more than great for me.

But we aren't getting a new Chrono game. So fuck you square, I'm not stopping you from any potential income. Go download Crimson Echoes, mod it, make it official, sell it for download. I'll go buy it from you because you did something cool. Crimson Echoes did a better job explain the time travel factor than you did with Chrono Cross yourselves, if anything, you should offer Zeality a job to make Chrono Break for you and you've got a guaranteed 100 preorders from this site alone. Or you can be yourselves and we'll make another fan game that you won't stop us or make any money off of. Your choice.