Author Topic: Does the Entity exist?  (Read 24607 times)

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #135 on: September 29, 2005, 06:49:59 pm »
Goddamit, Zaper, there's not Fate at work besides FATE. If everything is determined by Fate then how can time travel even work the way it does in Chronoverse?

Lord_Glavin

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #136 on: September 29, 2005, 07:02:27 pm »
Yeah in the chronoverse there is no fate even the poyozo doll in Zeal said so he said life can't be predetermined

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2005, 12:08:10 am »
Ummm No.. The Poyozo doll asked if you did, and if you believed it like it did, you got a stone because you're allies in a way, duh....

Fate does exist in the Chrono World. Even Miguel said so. And Time Travel can exist in a world where Fate pre determins everything. Duh... Lavos time line is pre determined, Planet having flash backs is predetermined, Crono being chosen as the hero of time is determined, what happens in the changed future is pre determined, what happens in the new future is pre determined, what happens when the time crash happens is pre determined, what Schala does is pre determined, what Serge does is pre determined... The TD being destroyed is pre determined. There. The Entity of Fate knows all.. Otherwise it wouldn't be Fate >.>

Dragoness

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2005, 12:53:29 am »
Hm... Interesting.

But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?

Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?

edit:

Quote from: Kazuki
Quote from: Dragoness
Hm... Interesting.

But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?

Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?


It's pretty clear in my mind that he's talking about the concept, not the super computer. Although, the descriptions can be applied to both variants, I guess...


Very true, Kazuki.

...What? I didn't feel like making a new post. >_>

Kazuki

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 948
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2005, 01:58:05 am »
Quote from: Dragoness
Hm... Interesting.

But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?

Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?


It's pretty clear in my mind that he's talking about the concept, not the super computer. Although, the descriptions can be applied to both variants, I guess...

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2005, 02:07:26 am »
The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something.  In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything.  Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2005, 02:12:53 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something.  In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything.  Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.


Not neccessarially. It could be that the time alteration is part of fate itself. Look at it from the furthest out perspective possible. From such a view you could see time looping back, being changed, and the old timeline either being split or discarded. Things could be ordained to be changed as well, and thus the final form is what is truly the fashion of time. Rather like something being forged. We think of time as usually being fixed, but what if destiny is molded like steel is forged? It's worked upon and finally has its final perfect shape, just as the Maker intended.

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2005, 04:49:13 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Sentenal
The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something.  In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything.  Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.


Not neccessarially. It could be that the time alteration is part of fate itself. Look at it from the furthest out perspective possible. From such a view you could see time looping back, being changed, and the old timeline either being split or discarded. Things could be ordained to be changed as well, and thus the final form is what is truly the fashion of time. Rather like something being forged. We think of time as usually being fixed, but what if destiny is molded like steel is forged? It's worked upon and finally has its final perfect shape, just as the Maker intended.


Exactally.
You wonder why if Serge dies, it says something like "And so Serge was never born, those who defy Fate" yadi yadi yaya. Because Serge is not supposed to die after the time split happens. If he is killed, that means he defied fate and became weak or something. Obviousally, he never dies in CC (exception to the Lynx killing him thing) so the game can go on.

Whilst Fate exists, everything will be pre determined, even time travel, for you are changing the future because Fate allows it. Like I said, Fate maybe wanted to see what would happen if the planet died, planet had flash backs and Fate may have decided to create time gates the second time around, and that would all still be predetermined on a diety level.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2005, 06:45:21 am »
For answers on fate, watch Donnie Darko. I thought there was a quote, which Dr. Montioff said which went like "Well for time travel to exist, you need Fate. But if there is fate, and you can time travel, then you can change it and it wont be fate any more!" I tried to look for it, in quote sites and the actual movie, but can't find it! Maybe I was hallucinating with Donnie...

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2005, 07:00:11 am »
The point is that Fate allows you to change time, which is it's will and would prove that Fate still exists.
Like with that Law by Eular or some other guy "Anything that can happen will happen" Or is that Murphy' law. It can happens and will because time is infinite, well possibly anyway, and Fate is one of the powers that would allow anything and everything to happen.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2005, 07:54:37 am »
i still say watch donnie darko  :x

Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all

Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #146 on: September 30, 2005, 09:00:14 am »
That's a theory..

OMG IM A RADICAL DREAMER!! COOL LOL

Kazuki

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 948
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #147 on: September 30, 2005, 09:50:12 am »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
i still say watch donnie darko  :x

Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all

Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?


Even if the universe is destroyed time still flows. Consider the big bang theory, where there was nothing, and then with a might explosion formed the cosmos. If time did not flow, then it would have remained the eternal nothingness.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #148 on: September 30, 2005, 05:55:42 pm »
Quote from: Kazuki
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
i still say watch donnie darko  :x

Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all

Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?


Even if the universe is destroyed time still flows. Consider the big bang theory, where there was nothing, and then with a might explosion formed the cosmos. If time did not flow, then it would have remained the eternal nothingness.


Time would not exist without the universe. The defenition of our 'universe' is the dimensions that define existance, and this includes time. If the universe ceases to exist, presumably that means that the dimensions that define it has (or, rather, they must no longer exist). Thus, even as the universe cannot exist without time, time cannot exist without the universe, for time is a subset of the universe itself.

Acutally, just thinking of time, I came up with something rather interesting regarding time, space, and all the forces of the universe. Essentially, I came to the conclusion that the basic thing of the universe is an unknowable ether. How? Well, consider this. It is plain how all three spacial dimensions interact, and how they influence matter, correct? It is also proven that matter influences gravity and, once the Grand Unified Theory is disconvered, all the forces of the universe will be connected, thus linking even electromagnetism with the existance of matter. Furthermore, electromagnetism is connected with light. Thus one can have a link from light to matter. Since gravity affects light, there is yet another link. Now, matter and time connect in the following way: when something goes faster, the rate of time-flow alters for it. Thus, movement and mass are connected to time. How are they connected? It is said that at the speed of light, mass becomes infinite. Thus, the speed of light defines the upper bound of mass. Also, at the speed of light, time stops. Thus the lower bound of time is defined by light as well. This gives a new meaning to the phrase: let there be light! It may turn out to be true, after all, if light can be seen, or rather the speed of light, can be seen as the defining thing of the universe. Now, through this logic, all forces, matter, and time in the universe have some connection and influence each other, and can be traced to light (arbitarially; it could be traced to any of these, but light has the interesting property of defining the bounds I have mentioned.) But one question remains: why is the speed of light what it is? Light can be slowed down by going through a medium like water, almost to a stand-still, but through vaccuum, it is a set speed, or at least is now (I have heard it said that it may be that light has been slowing down from the beginning). Why this speed? What impedes it? This is what I term ether, after what people used to think lay in the vaccuum. It is a medium that sets the boundaries upon the universe, essentially making the universe the universe, and not void. Now, this would have an interesting property. I'm not certain of this, but the laws governing the speed of light as an upper bound seem to tie to the number, not a given ray of light. If one nearly stops light, the materials through which it passes do not become infinitely heavy, I do not think. So it is the value, the resistance to light's travel, that is important. Thus light itself is meaningless; it is the medium that defines light, and thus the medium which defines what matter and time are. Now, consider that light may indeed be slowing down. This shows a trend of density increase in the medium over time, perhaps due to cooling in the aftermath of creation/bigbang/whatever. And what are the implications of this? That the set speed of light, the upper bound, will fall lower and lower, thus making relative mass of the universe higher and higher, as it will lie nearer the speed of 'light'. Furthermore, time will travel more slowly. Eventually, as the density of this medium impedes all travel of light, the speed of light will go to zero, the universe will become infinitely heavy and, stopping time, come to eternity, where nothing happens. On the flipside, outside the universe, which is essentially void without the ether (the universe being a pocket of ether) light would have free reign to go infinitely quickly, and time would pass at an infinite rate, thus being another form of eternity where all things happen at once.

So, essentially, I propound the idea of an unknowable ether.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #149 on: September 30, 2005, 06:18:06 pm »
Quote
Yeah in the chronoverse there is no fate even the poyozo doll in Zeal said so he said life can't be predetermined


The Chosen One Speaks! :O

Quote
Ummm No.. The Poyozo doll asked if you did, and if you believed it like it did, you got a stone because you're allies in a way, duh....


Um...no?

Quote
Duh... Lavos time line is pre determined


No, that's just how things unfolded.

Quote
Planet having flash backs is predetermined


See above

Quote
Crono being chosen as the hero of time is determined


Crono is not Link. He was just in the right place at the right time.

Quote
what happens in the changed future is pre determined, what happens in the new future is pre determined, what happens when the time crash happens is pre determined, what Schala does is pre determined, what Serge does is pre determined... The TD being destroyed is pre determined. There.


NOOOOOooooooooooooooo it's not. Give me proof that any of this stuff is predetermined.

Quote
The Entity of Fate knows all.. Otherwise it wouldn't be Fate >.>


But it's not. The Entity is the Planet.

Quote
Exactally.
You wonder why if Serge dies, it says something like "And so Serge was never born, those who defy Fate" yadi yadi yaya. Because Serge is not supposed to die after the time split happens. If he is killed, that means he defied fate and became weak or something. Obviousally, he never dies in CC (exception to the Lynx killing him thing) so the game can go on.


If Serge's death isn't canon, how can that line be canon? Otherwise you should argue that history cannot be changed because of the Lavos ending.