2005- The year of C&Ds and deluded fans

[ivanthem]

Firstly, I must commend ZeaLitY for the excellent editorial How NOT to get SE to make a CT sequel. After 2 (or 3) major projects getting shut down this year by SE's lawyer's C&D letters, I think it's time to clear out the issue about CT sequels, CC sequels, CB or any other Chrono title.
I have nowhere near the expertise on the Chrono series as the other players on this forum, but I share in an equal love of both titles. It saddens me however to see extremists popping up who are totally deluded and think SE's an evil corporate giant only willing to make Final Fantasies with progressively shorter skirts. Well, drawing on the interview with Masato Kato from the Procyon studios, I hope I can take the issue a little deeper. A note: I know the link was already posted, but here it is again http://www.cocoebiz.com/mitsuda/english/friends/kato.html

Why doesn't SE make another Chrono title? Both Masato Kato and Mitsuda left SE, and as Mr. Kato said:

For the company, there was probably a strong opposition against hiring a person who had just quit his job to become a freelance, but from our point of view, it didn't matter if he was a freelance or if he was an employee; we chose him because we needed that one and only "Chrono Sound".

Okay so there's the word 'probably' there, but Mr Kato obviously has strong feelings that he upset a few people at SE during the project of Chrono Cross. Throughout the interview (in 1999) he gives hints of his dissatisfaction of Square:

My feelings about SQUARE right now are ... Let's not go there right now... Well, there's no real deep meaning behind that, but...

I won't comment on this bit.. but about 2 or 3 years later, he left Square.

Now Mr Kato himself admitted that he wasn't the 'father' of CT, that he was just one of the story writers. But he contributed the 12000 BC age to the game. Imagine CT without Zeal. Isn't Zeal what makes Chrono Trigger? Well, even if you have other views, Zeal definitely makes CC.
Mr Kato doesn't show the amount of passion that some fans do. Take the quote about Chrono Cross:

OK. Since I may never have the chance to say this kind of thing anywhere else... I'll go ahead and say it. After the announcement of "Cross" this time, I heard a lot of voices out there that were saying things like, "Man, this isn't CHRONO". To tell you the truth, I was gravely disappointed. Yes, the platform changed; and yes, there were many parts that changed dramatically from the previous work. But in my view, the whole point in making Chrono Cross was to make a new Chrono with the best available skills and technologies of today. I never had any intentions of just taking the system from Trigger and moving it onto the PlayStation console. That's why I believe that Cross is Cross, and NOT Trigger 2. The thing that I can't understand is how could people possibly declare that this isn't Chrono? And for these people, I can't help but wonder what it was that Chrono meant to them...? Is it possible that none of the messages that I tried to send out to these people never really got through to them?

So even if we get a sequel, take this quote:

"there's no use in making something similar to before" so if possible, I'd like to work with him and take on something new and even wierder again. Of course we'll still keep whatever we feel needs to be kept unchanged, so no worries there.

Perhaps we won't get a Chrono sequel, if we get anything at all. What is Chrono? At the risk of being flamed, banished and burned at the stake, I believe what Mr. Kato himself believes (he stated this in a cNet interview): something innovative and new, utilising the technology of the day. Chrono Trigger was new, but people wanted the "same old" in Chrono Cross. What we all got was something entirely new- and that's what makes the Chrono series what it is. Love it or hate it, you'll end up loving it

So how does this tie in? Don't be deluded that online petitions and such attempts to get Square to make a sequel are going to get us what we all want.

First, there's the relationship between Yasonuri Mitsuda, Masato Kato and Square- these are pretty much essential ingredients for a Chrono game (well, many would say that the square part is debatable)
Then, there's the risk of SE being money-hungry corporate sleazebags and making a sequel... a rushed one that disgraces the series.
There's also the fact of the controversy of a new Chrono title: give fans another Chrono and they'll hate you for changing the characters, plot, storyline, etc.
Finally, Square owns the trademarks to the Chronos. Unless Masato Kato is asked to do another sequel or Square decides to risk another Chrono all on its own (will it be the same?), the future of an OFFICIAL Chrono game is bleak.

Perhaps we need to stop acting as if Chrono is some holier-than-thou game because that's not the approach the games were born out of. Remember the magic when you played it the first time, and look at the Chrono community now!

Well, the reason I posted was to get some other opinions. From the above, it's not too hard to derive that the situation is pretty complex, if not tense. There's too much of this 'SQUARE ENIX BETTER MAKE A SEQUEL OR I'M GONNA SUE THEM.... when I turn 18 that is...'. What are your thoughts- when do you think we'll see the next official Chrono game? Will we ever see one? Does anyone have any updates?

Cheers for reading,

[V_Translanka]

Uh...I'm not exactly sure what you want, but let's see if I can't try...

Basically, I don't think there will be a new Chrono anytime soon because a lot of Square-Enix's talent and resources are focused in so many other directions right now. When things settle down and they get their cross-platforming and various other diversification tactics out of their system (or finely tuned...whichever)...I think that then, and possibly only then, will we see the light at the end of the tunnel (uh...in a good way?) for a next installment.

[ZeaLitY]

I agree about Cross completely. Chrono Cross is a self-contained work of art. It is a near flawless masterpiece, and really defines the Chrono series. However, whiny fanboys wanted the original cast and Woolsey-type humor.

I just can't fathom how people could reject Cross on such weak ground. It's beyond me. It's also the reason why I'm going to make a feature to explore why these people don't like the game, since I just can't figure it out. Chrono Cross is the future of the Chrono series.

[DeweyisOverrated]

I just can't fathom how people could reject Cross on such weak ground. It's beyond me. It's also the reason why I'm going to make a feature to explore why these people don't like the game, since I just can't figure it out. Chrono Cross is the future of the Chrono series.

I think the explanation is somewhat simple.

Let's look at the Final Fantasy series.  Now, not a lot of people REALLY complain about each individual sequel for what seems to be an obvious reason... that is, they aren't even sequels.  None of them have anything to do with each other.  So, when each one comes out, everyone is basically just looking for a brand new game.

Let's look at Cross, the sequel to Chrono Trigger.  When you think sequel, you think various things.  A continuation of the story.  A return of characters (both villains and playable).  A close tie-in to the original game.

Now, people that don't really divulge into the depths of Chrono Cross will never get any of these.  At first glance, Cross DOESNT have anything to do with Trigger.  It's one of the most confusing plots to fully understand, and makes almost no mention of any of the main points about Trigger that we came to love.  Magus Crono Marle Frog Robo and Ayla are gone (from the game).  Lucca appears to have been killed off, but we don't see her, and there's still little mention of her.  Main villains are completly absent (once again, this is at first glance, if you don't catch Mother Brain, etc), and even Lavos is only briefly mentioned on a painting on a wall.

Even the map will turn people off.  I didn't understand until a few years later what the hell hapenned to the rest of the world, I was under the impression for a long time that El Nido WAS the new world map, not just a cluster of islands making up a smaller part of the map.  So, it seems like unfamiliarity will turn many people away as well.

Another huge complaint is the number of characters.  I can actually agree with this one.  With too many characters comes too little character development.  Now, a big back-up argument for this is how each character has their own accent, giving them unique personalities.  IMO, his actually makes it much worse.  Essentially, what you have is one personality, speaking in different languages.  For example:

Seeing Queen Zeal (I'm totally making this up) might trigger the following reactions:

Leah:  Bad Queen!  Ooga Booga!
Poshul: Bad-sum Queen-um, yessh-um?
Harle: Zat Queen iz bad, non?

See, basically, where as in Chrono Trigger, you would have 7 (er, 6, damn mute-Crono) actual DIFFERENT and UNIQUE reactions, here you have 44 characters that essentially say the exact same thing, with cute and funny little accents on the end of their words.  This, I would agree, is a weaker point of CC.

So I believe it is for these reasons that people don't like Cross.  I think they were so outraged at the fact that none of the things that made CT great were directly-spelled-out-for-you-in-front-of-your-face there.  In turn, they got pissed, never played the game again, and didn't go in-depth with the story.

Wow, maybe that wasn't so simple.  Seems like a simple point, I guess, just not simple to explain.  Well, that's my two cents.  Hope people actually read it.

[Legend of the Past]

Read it. You're right. But like ZeaLitY said:

Chrono Cross is a self-contained work of art. It is a near flawless masterpiece, and really defines the Chrono series.

I liked CC a lot! The story is deep and touching, the characters are intresting (Those that the game actually has a background from them). Besides, does anyone ever use Poshul? Or Turnip? Or whatever? People mostly use, along with Serge\Lynx, Kid and Glenn, if they have them at that point, or a Dragoon. Fargo would be there too, for his stealing skills. Otherwise, who else do you use?

The world may not be as big (About ten times smaller, actually, when counting time periods) as CT, but hey, at least you don't have to search so hard! It also makes theorising about travel a snap. Traveling by boat from the southern tip to the northern tip of El-Nido would be, what? An hour? Going through continents by foot, espically Zenan, who at one point as a desert in it's center, would take days, nay, weeks to cross!

Cross, as complicated as it is, is a bit easier to analyze, being that the game begs to be looked at in a sciencetific point of view. Just look at Chronopolis! They'd dissect Lavos Spawns, if they could, for the mere point of science! It has supercomputers, gene changing stones, alien party members, evolution theories. It's a nerd's dream game! Come on, what more can you ask for?!

Oh, and the music. "People seized with life" gets me every time. "Garden of the Gods" is wonderful! "Dragon God" is a powerful tone. And all the remakes of the RD tones!

And the graphics give the game justice too. Seriously, the FMV's are sweet, even by today's standards. So give me a break, this game rocks. If you can't stand thinking, you should stop playing whatever FPS you're playing and start going to school again.

[ivanthem]

I agree, Chrono Cross was a masterpiece. And I think because of the 5 year period between the game releases, it gave the chance for the Chrono Trigger gamers to grow up and enjoy the more mature story. Unfortunately it seems some fans haven't grown up at all.

ZeaLitY, if you're gonna make a feature, check http://www.yamoslair.com/ccsucks.html The article is a crock, but judging from the length of the review, this guy's serious. You might wanna see some of the points of the opposition.

[ZeaLitY]

Most definitely, and I'm also going to blend some of the points here (credited, of course). That Willmistretta guy was a good GoldenEye 007 hacker back when I knew him, but I was shocked years later to find that he had erected a hate page for Chrono Cross. It's totally inane.

[DeweyisOverrated]

I checked out the site, and it seems most of his stuff is very reasonable.  He doesn't use any "Chrono Cross sucks because I said so!" knowledge.  In fact, most of his stuff is actually correct, but I think just differs from us in the fact that it doesn't bother us as much, as we're looking past that.

[ZeaLitY]

Let me examine his first 10 points. I'll publish my findings regardless of whether they work for or against me.

1. No recurring playable characters.
2. Small game world is bland, cramped, and monotonous.
3. Element system removes almost all character individuality in combat and contributes to a Pokemon-like classification of characters by "color."
4. Character design is far inferior to Akira Toriyama's work in Chrono Trigger.
5. Huge portions of the game consist entirely of empty filler in the form of dull fetch quests and monster hunting exercises.
6. Characters limited to three or less unique tech skills.
7. Virtually no double and triple techs.
8. Development for the majority of character is severely lacking or completely nonexistant.
9. Most characters are silly and pointless.
10. Some plot "revelations" (like Lynx being Serge's father) make little sense and seem like pointless afterthoughts designed to cover for poor scenario writing.

1. Recurring playable characters happens next to nil in RPGs.
2. Total personal taste. The artwork of El Nido is exceptionally vibrant, and there are dungeons.
3. Forgets to mention the techs, though some of this is valid.
4. TOTAL personal taste. He might as well insult FF6 for its artwork too, and every other thing inferior to Toriyama's work (which doesn't vary that much; Crono is Goku, Magus is Vegeta, etc.)
5. Happens twice, once at the beginning of the game, and again at the Grand Slam. If he's talking about getting the relics from the Dragons, that part can become tiresome, but it involves plenty of new areas.
6. Okay, yes, like 3, somewhat valid.
7. Valid.
8. Valid.
9. Not most, but somewhat valid.
10. No. The only trouble with the plot is that a fair share is dumped on the player at the end, but otherwise it is delicately planned storytelling. This is what I call the literacy factor, and it plays heavily into fanboys' cries of "this doesn't make any sense; don't think of it as a Chrono game."

Thus far, he's only had valid objections where I've conceded in the past. I recognize only a grand total of 1.5 problems with Chrono Cross.

0.5 is the lack of double and triple techs, which seemed to be a Chrono staple beforehand.

1 is the proliferation of characters; half of this just comes from little development, and the other half comes from knowing that they edged Magus out of the game.

Anyway, it'll be fun to put him to rest.

[DeweyisOverrated]

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you, Zeality.  I love Chrono Cross.  I can't really say which game I like better.  Chrono Trigger to me was the greatest game of all time, and Cross, while I'm not a gigantic fan of the battle system, seemed to be a great evolution for the series.  I think what I meant to say was that his points are more well constructed than what people typically say about Cross not being a sequel "and sucking".

[ivanthem]

Q. for ZeaLitY: I found this on a ForumPlanet article- http://www.forumplanet.com/rpgplanet/chronicles/topic.asp?fid=5771&tid=1583963&p=2

Conditions are looking better for Break, anyway. Grandia is a departure from the Final Fantasy saturation they've been doing, and it's also a small series like the Chrono series (in terms of installments, not scope, because Chrono...kicks ass in that regard). Mitsuda arrange coming in 2005, Kato possibly back at SE = things are shaping up.

The post, as you may recognise is yours and I thought I should post it, because I hadn't heard of this news until today (the post was dated April) and thus did not take it into account when posting. If Masato Kato really does go back... well I don't wanna get hyped up until it's official... have there been any further updates since then?

[V_Translanka]

CC is an entirely different beast from CT (& RD while we're at it). You just can't look at one the same way as you look at the other.

Personally, I think CT had more of an all-around package deal. You had a great, (very) well-developed cast, an awesome storyline, and yer basic classic RPG battle system (at the time it was pretty much the standard).

CC is mainly focused around it's brilliant storyline. There are hardly any characters that are spectacularly developed (I give props only to Kid & Harle) and the battle system is a jumbled bunch of unnecessary older concepts from previous RPGs (but it is an easy way for n00bs to get into those many various aspects of RPGs).

Basically, I think it came down to character development for me. I think this is my own personal major factor in RPGs. Without a good, solid cast, a great storyline can be rendered meaningless. If I don't care about the characters, why should I care about what's happening to them? I mean, RD may have suffered (I don't even really think it did) in it's battle/gameplay, but I think it more than made up for it by having good character development and an engrossing story.

[ZeaLitY]

He may or may not be back. Soraya Saga of XenoSaga said he was, but you never know.

[Legend of the Past]

RD rocked in nearly every aspect.

CC... I guess the one advantage of having an overused Battle System is that it's simple? I've read what this guy as to say, and to be honest I got the feeling that from the moment he saw that this wasn't the CT sequel he expected, he looked only at the bad things. He never mentioned all the beautfiul things in the game, like the "People seized with Life" song, which I loved, some of the very touching scenes... Like in the Dead Sea, Kid's orphanege and when you free Schala, of course. (That asshole said the "Magical Dreamers" song sucks! Why that little...!)

[DeweyisOverrated]

It's funny.  At first, I hated the CC soundtrack, with a few exceptions.  After really listening to it, I love a vast majority of the song's, with a few exceptions.  (Gaia's Navel drives me absolutely insane, I can't stand it).