about Salt For the Dead Sea article...

[Kuroikaze]

I notice that in the article, that it is assumed that Lavos is what causes the destruction viewed in the Dead Sea, and the Dead Sea is a representation of the area surrounding the Tower of Geddon (presumably in the city/lab of Chronopolis).

I may be wrong, but I don't recall Miguel ever stating or alluding that Lavos caused it. In fact, if the Dead Sea represents the 9,021 years after Lavos rains destruction on the world, wouldn't the city of chronopolis be long gone? At least horribly overgrown and not frozen in time like it was.

I submit that it's possible that the destruction we see there is the point in time when the Time Devourer awakens, and begins its own lavos-esque destruction, and uses its ability to manipulate time and space to do the whole "frozen in time" thing.

It makes sense, since it would take several thousand years for Schalla and Lavos to finish merging completely, and even longer for it to complete its power draining of the planet and then the subsequent destruction and spawning of its new hybrid species.

We know that the merging is a long process because the Time Devourer isn't yet merged in 2300 AD when Balthasar discovers its existence, and it had been around since either 12,000 BC or 1010 AD. (I'm not clear if Schalla/Devourer actually time-traveled to 1010 and cause the magnetic storm, or if it was just reaching into that tiem period from the DBT.)

In either case, Schallavos is either 10,010 years old at youngest, and 23,020 years at most at the time of the destruction of Chronopolis in Home World. More then enough time to absorb energy from the planet and merge completly. (remember, this portion of lavos wasn't being used as a giant battery by a civilization that probably undid 1000 years of draining every year of using it, nor was it summoned by Magus or had to expend energy to defeat Chrono or Magus respectivly.)

Anyone have any problems with this? anything not fit?

[ZeaLitY]

Lithosphere Investigation Report #27 is the primary reason it is attributed to Lavos. Additionally, Belthasar talked about the Time Devourer maturing with a certain finality, as if all time would cease to exist once he matured. Since the DBT is where he's going to mature on a perpindicular timeline to the real world, it stands that for all times during Chrono Cross, he hasn't matured.

I know there is some other quote somewhere about Lavos, but I'm just answering with high level answers at the moment. The reasoning is there, but it requires some digging. The perpindicular thing stems Beyond Time.

Anyway, if Time Error isn't true for the Chrono series, your theory may be valid. I really wish I could halt some gears and finally start a massive analysis overhaul and completion right now, but features and the 10th birthday have been keeping me. Nonetheless, this will be settled; welcome to the Compendium.

[ZeaLitY]

By the way, I'll move this to Time & Space since it is good analysis.

[Kuroikaze]

Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading alot fo stuff about this site, researching for a game I plan to make I've decided to call Chrono Crash.

I was hoping for it to be kind of a bridge game, that people could play to more fully understand the full effects of the events in CT and CC, and help clear up the mystery of Chronopolis and the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden.

I'll only use facts to piece the game together, and since this place bases all its arguments on in-game information and accepted facts about temporal physics and theory, its a goldmine for me.

[ZeaLitY]

Yeah, I apologize that it's in a bit of disarray right now. My gears have been focused on the basic encyclopedia and journalistic features for so long that analysis has kind of taken a backseat.

[Lord J Esq]

Yeah, I apologize that it's in a bit of disarray right now. My gears have been focused on the basic encyclopedia and journalistic features for so long that analysis has kind of taken a backseat.

There is an old Chronopoleyish proverb: "Even the Entity flits but one tail."

[AuraTwilight]

I may be wrong, but I don't recall Miguel ever stating or alluding that Lavos caused it. In fact, if the Dead Sea represents the 9,021 years after Lavos rains destruction on the world, wouldn't the city of chronopolis be long gone? At least horribly overgrown and not frozen in time like it was.

Thing is, the Dead Sea represents the destroyed future Crono diverted, and Serge's actions negated Crono's.

I submit that it's possible that the destruction we see there is the point in time when the Time Devourer awakens, and begins its own lavos-esque destruction, and uses its ability to manipulate time and space to do the whole "frozen in time" thing.

The Time Devourer can't be mature in any time or space whatsoever, because once it does, it will devour and destroy all past, present and future so that there never WAS a universe.

It makes sense, since it would take several thousand years for Schalla and Lavos to finish merging completely, and even longer for it to complete its power draining of the planet and then the subsequent destruction and spawning of its new hybrid species.

I got the impression that the destruction of the universe would be almost instantanious. and the Time Devourer has no interest in breeding. Once it's done, there won't be any food for it's children. Not to mention that will give Schala some heavyduty identity crisis.

We know that the merging is a long process because the Time Devourer isn't yet merged in 2300 AD when Balthasar discovers its existence, and it had been around since either 12,000 BC or 1010 AD. (I'm not clear if Schalla/Devourer actually time-traveled to 1010 and cause the magnetic storm, or if it was just reaching into that tiem period from the DBT.)

Reaching out. FYI, the Darkness Beyond Time is perpendiculuar, so it runs on a seperate timestream.

In either case, Schallavos is either 10,010 years old at youngest, and 23,020 years at most at the time of the destruction of Chronopolis in Home World. More then enough time to absorb energy from the planet and merge completly. (remember, this portion of lavos wasn't being used as a giant battery by a civilization that probably undid 1000 years of draining every year of using it, nor was it summoned by Magus or had to expend energy to defeat Chrono or Magus respectivly.)

Schallavos? You mean the Time Devourer, right? Whatever. Anyway, time runs differently in the DBT, so from Schala's point of view, she might have been there for minutes only.
.
.
.
LOL, I would HOPE no one tried to summon the Time Devourer! Shit!

[Legend of the Past]

I'll summon the TD!

~Summons him~

~TD eats all s\t, we're all screwed, and everything ceases to exist~

~Lavos is happy ^_^~

[Chrono'99]

Schallavos? You mean the Time Devourer, right? Whatever. Anyway, time runs differently in the DBT, so from Schala's point of view, she might have been there for minutes only.

Kid:
   C'mon Serge, me mate!
   You don't wanna keep the
   girl waiting any longer...
   She's been waitin' for you,
   and only you!
   And for over ten thousand
   years, I might add!

[Kuroikaze]

Well, I guess that's a no-go then.

But thinking about how Lavos multiplies, I notice it's asexual. This is pretty easy to figure out, because there's only one on the planet, and there's no way in hell it has a gestation period of several million years.

So the next logical idea is that it produced by asexual division, Mitosis or Meiosis. Starfish reproduce in a similar fashion. If you cut a starfish into five pieces, it will grow into 5 new starfish. This might have something to do with the first thing Lavos does when it unburrows from the planet (and its little pocket dimension). It attempts to preform a high-speed mitosis or meiosis and launches spires off itself to spread them around the world. The widescale destruction this causes is most likely a side-effect, but negligible, because the world by this stage of Lavos' cycle is more than fit enough to support myriad lifeforms. Killing a few billion people just means that there will be more food for its infant spawn to slowly grow, mature, and eventually launch themselves into space in search of their own planets.

If this is true, then perhaps the Frozen Flame is a piece of Lavos that either had its growth halted or severly stunted by its father piece. Why would Lavos do this? A few reasons.

1) A backup plan. If Lavos reproduces via meiosis or mitosis, then it retains memory genetically. This clone would for all intents and purposes BE lavos. Laucnhing a premature chunk of itself would serve the dual purpose of it being its link to the surface and a backup piece of itself.

2) Lavos cant have another version of itself maturing at the same time as it's trying to guide the planet to be able to sustain multiple powerful life forms. It needs to be able to drain a specific ammount of energy from the planet before it can reproduce, as Mitosis and Meiosis are a severe drain of energy.

so, when Lavos was removed from history by Chrono and Co, the Frozen Flame put into plan its backup, by corrupting FATE and tossing it back in time, and allowing it to create a stable self-contained environment, it had a mini-planet to begin draining from to start its maturation. Serge's predicament was most likely planned from the begining. His being there and almost dying in 1010 created a perfect opportunity to give the Frozen Flame infinite time to mature. When Wazuki/FATE was killed by Kid, this created a vacancy of FATE in Home World, meaning that El Nido was no longer guided toward the time when Chronopolis existed. This created the Dead Sea, which might be seen as a place held in an infinite time loop.
With an infinite 10,000 year loop, the Frozen Flame could mature and grow into a full Lavos being, then burrow and halt the loop by hiding in a pocket dimension, then emerge from the pocket dimension in 11,010 AD, bringing about the destruction seen in the Dead Sea.

[AuraTwilight]

MITOSIS! OMG, that's freaking GENIUS! I've been wondering why we can't find Lavos in 2300 AD, despite the fact that he reigns on Death Peak. The rest of the stuff is kinda messed up though.

Kid:
C'mon Serge, me mate!
You don't wanna keep the
girl waiting any longer...
She's been waitin' for you,
and only you!
And for over ten thousand
years, I might add!

Like Kid is any valid source of information on the Tesseract. Sure, the time she's been waiting may equate to 10,000 years in OUR world, but it's pretty obvious the Tesseract works on a different time frame (how it works is debateable) and I just don't think that Schala, no matter how noble, can keep sane for 10,000 years of existence. Come on.

[ZeaLitY]

Well, there is the idea that Death Peak is composed of Lavos's shell, or he's at least in it. It is rather spiky, and a mountain never existed there before at the precise eruption point.

[Kuroikaze]

Like Kid is any valid source of information on the Tesseract. Sure, the time she's been waiting may equate to 10,000 years in OUR world, but it's pretty obvious the Tesseract works on a different time frame (how it works is debateable) and I just don't think that Schala, no matter how noble, can keep sane for 10,000 years of existence. Come on.

I think time in the Tesseract is relative, like in Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card. Traveling at light speed or faster makes time pass much slower than those outside the vessal, or in this case, the tesseract. I'm not sure what the ratio would be.

But lets assume that for each year spent in the Tesseract, the relative difference outside would be 1000 years. In that case, Schala might have spent at the most, 10 years there. This is most likey VERY wrong, though.

The idea behind the Tesseract is that it's empty 4 dimensional space. The term Tesseract describes the 4 dimensional equivalent of a cube. you can find pictures of it on google, and it's pretty brilliant.

If you view the Tesseract as a vessal that is capable of moving in the 4th dimension, you can assume that all time is within reach from within it, also because it has a 4th dimension itself, it is essentially limitless in size. Moving within the tesseract in our basic 3 dimensions would get you nowhere, the only way to enter and leave is via gates, which are 5th dimensional tunnels. 5th dimension being theorized to be a dimension of movement in which one can travel instantly to any location, like a kind of subspace. Imagine a rat in a maze, it moves in two dimensions, but if ti were capable of the third, it would simply rise out of the maze to reach the end. A nigh instataneous mode of transportation that avoids the normal obstavles of matter.

so, while the 3rd dimension allows one to move uninhibited by the obstacles of mass, the 5th dimension of movement would theoretically allow one to move freely of the other element that impedes all movement, energy.

Remember, this is just a theory.

Edit - Also, for mitosis to occur, the orginal doesn't have to be destroyed, it's simply reduced in size until it can re-form. Like I said, starfish. Cut off a starfish's leg, wait several weeks, and you'll now have two complete starfish, both genetically identical. With the huge amount of energy that lavos has been storing, I think it's possible that it uses it to reform its lost pieces after reproducing.

[Sentenal]

IMO, the DBT is simply the collect of discarded timelines, no longer flowing.  So time stands still there, at least for the timelines themselves.  Sentient beings would obviously not be frozen.

And thats an interesting idea about Lavos destroying the world by launching spires of itself to seed the planet...  I just have one question for that:  If that was indeed him seeding the planet, then how come the only place where you find Lavos Spawns at is on Death Peak?

[Kuroikaze]

If that was indeed him seeding the planet, then how come the only place where you find Lavos Spawns at is on Death Peak?

Migration, probably. They would want to go to the area where their spawner was last, as there would be easy access to the PD so they could start siphoning off the remaining vestiges of energy in the planet before launching themselves into space.

Also, as stated above, Death Mountain may be Lavos' corpse after splitting off into several pieces.

And as for the "why destroy the planet?" thing, I imagien young lavos are very vulnerable, and probably only have the shell of their creator's spire as their initial protection. By devastating the dominant lifeform of the planet, it increases each spawn's chance for survival.

This kind of "spreading seeds" thing is seen alot in nature, especially in insects and reptiles, and other species that dont reer their young. I highly doubt Lavos reers its young, or even stays alive much longer after reproduction.

Edit - another explanation may be that the Lavos Spawn at Death Mountain are the last remaining ones, and that being at the point of exit means the area there isn't as energy ripe as the rest of the world was in 1999, thus they've not yet met their energy requirements for interplanetary launch. The others had probably left decades before, having a wealth of area and energy at their disposal.