Politics, from "When Zealians Sleep" topic

[DarkGizmo]

USA is though to be way worse than Rome and such because the world evolve and people though they were in a world of peace, while we clearly aren't but anyway Bush shown that all we've worked for was useless like the ONU, the greatest sign of alliance for world peace.

America is well know for his stupidity, AKA George Bush. I saw a video of Bsh saying he believe that one day humans and fishes coudl coexist peacefully... What a load of crap, we're completly destroying them and many are really rare now.

USA is the only country where a poor black guy can become a rich white women

[Daniel Krispin]

USA is though to be way worse than Rome and such because the world evolve and people though they were in a world of peace, while we clearly aren't but anyway Bush shown that all we've worked for was useless like the ONU, the greatest sign of alliance for world peace.

Only by people who don't know history. Anybody that really knows history would never have been fooled into thinking there ever was any kind of peace. People never evolved, we are the same we were thousands of years ago. This whole 'humanity has bettered itself' is really quite the grand illusion.

Oh, and never has, or likely will, the US be worse than Assyria.

America is well know for his stupidity, AKA George Bush. I saw a video of Bsh saying he believe that one day humans and fishes coudl coexist peacefully... What a load of crap, we're completly destroying them and many are really rare now.

USA is the only country where a poor black guy can become a rich white women

Well, he is only a billionaire. Having buisnessmen in politics does not always lead to the brightest of politicians - our own premiere of Alberta is proof of that. The only thing worse, I suppose, would be the people that re-elect them. Bush has done some stupid things, such as invading Iraq under the pretext of there being a threat - really, he should have just declared a war of conquest. It's been done a thousand times before in history. But he'd not all bad. He supported Teri Shiavo in that whole thing, so at least that's something.

[jotabe1789]

It is necesary to acknowledge that USA, as "empire" (hegemonic politic-militar force), has done a better job than the previous ones. This is one of the proofs that mankind's self improvement: From the first empires in Mesopotamy, then Egypt, then Rome, then Spain, then Britain, and finally USA (i am talking about the western empires, only), every empire has had higher moral values than the previous one.
Good part of the mankind nowadays has worries like ecology, human rights, children rights, equality man-woman... that we had never had before. Nowadays, autoritarian govts. only can keep in power through huge amounts of oppression, while in the past people would accept tyranny as the normal status of the affairs.

USA has long stopped seeking the territorial expansion. Though it still hungers for world domination (this is not such a bad thing... it is a natural wish to unite the world), they usually try to do it so things improve. And their militar actions are far more "merciful" than even the most moral of the empires of the past (let's not forget how many carnages has caused the British army to keep their empire). Overall, i think that situation of mankind would be much worse if the American empire wasn't around.

Also, even though i am a pacifist, i have to say that sometimes is better the just war than the unjust peace. I think it is preferable to die standing up that to live all your life kneeling.

[Zaperking]

@ Daniel
Don't forget that in those times, the world was new. Abstract consepts did not exist. If you were a low class citizen, your voice would not be heared. Everything was about war, because people needed it. These days, we live in a society where there is no need for war to get bigger lands because people can live wherever they want. Laws have been established so Jewish people, Black people, Ethenic people etc. are treated normally. Even Religion these days is being forgotten, with the upbringing of Athiests. OMG I HATE THEM! This little Atheist prick at my school keeps telling me that I should not believe in my God and puts me down etc and keeps debating all this crap, omg!!! There's a difference between ignorance and arrogance and not believing in a higher power >.>

[jotabe1789]

Atheists place themselves in a position as depending on beliefs as we believers do. From the lack of actual lack of scientifical proofs, you cannot deduce the inexistence of something. The rationally scientific position would be agnosticism. Atheism is just, another belief  

[Daniel Krispin]

This is one of the proofs that mankind's self improvement: From the first empires in Mesopotamy, then Egypt, then Rome, then Spain, then Britain, and finally USA (i am talking about the western empires, only), every empire has had higher moral values than the previous one.

This line is not unbroken, however. For I would argue that Egypt had higher moral values than Rome, and that the most moral empire of all the ancient/middle ages was none other than Persian, which was overcome by a much more barbaric Hellenic empire.

[jotabe1789]

But Roman Republic/Empire was the one true civilizer of the western world. Before them, most European/North African nations had no true urbanism, no civil engineering, no educative system, their social structure was still tribal, and even many of them still didn't know the iron working or the writing.
While previous empires might have been morally less corrupt, no empire before Rome attempted such a policy of extending the commodities in all its territory.
Also Rome was the first to subject everybody to the rule of the law, and even generalized citizenship to everyone living within the borders (something not even the greeks had done).

The hellenic empires, barbaric? I don't think so. While it is true that the Macedonians were not refined at all when coming to philosophy and morals, soon the Hellenic kingdoms subsequent to Alexander's death extended the Greek phylosophy, superior to the Persian theology in very many points. Furthermore, Dario was stupid, and Alexander rules!

[Radical_Dreamer]

The hellenic empires, barbaric? I don't think so. While it is true that the Macedonians were not refined at all when coming to philosophy and morals, soon the Hellenic kingdoms subsequent to Alexander's death extended the Greek phylosophy, superior to the Persian theology in very many points. Furthermore, Dario was stupid, and Alexander rules!

I read that just as the Iron Maiden song "Alexander the Great" came on. Such a bad ass song. "Then Egypt fell, to the Macedon king as well..." Hell yeah.

Points about Bush: He lost the first election. Fuck the electoral college. It means that the vote of the individual is meaningless. And he won the second election with 51% of the popular vote. Hardly fair basis to make commentary about all of America. Or even half, since as many people who were elegible to vote didn't as did. So, if you have a problem with that quarter of adult Americans, that's fine, but it's hardly sensible to generalize as far as you did.

The Terri Schaivo thing was ridiculous. It's not the government's buisneuss. Conservatives speak of a culture of life, but it seems that they simply want to have as many living humans as possible, rather than insuring the well being of however many current humans there are. There are more than enough of us at this point. Also, from what I've read, Terri Schiavo's coma was brought on by bullemia, so I think we can safely say that she wouldn't have wanted to be kept alive through forced nutrition.

The Iraq war was a mistake, and will thin out military resources that the U.S. may need very soon. Iran is building nukes, and whether for peace or war, Iran is a theocracy, and therefore not to be trusted. Also developing nukes, for expressely violent purposes, is North Korea. Since North Korea is run by a madman, it's government is also not to be trusted with nuclear technology.

[Daniel Krispin]

The Terri Schaivo thing was ridiculous. It's not the government's buisneuss. Conservatives speak of a culture of life, but it seems that they simply want to have as many living humans as possible, rather than insuring the well being of however many current humans there are. There are more than enough of us at this point. Also, from what I've read, Terri Schiavo's coma was brought on by bullemia, so I think we can safely say that she wouldn't have wanted to be kept alive through forced nutrition.

No, no! Don't believe the media! They twisted things into it seeming that way, to be sure, but it wasn't so. Her parents wished her alive, but her money-greedy husaband wanted her dead for insurance. That is downright criminal.

The thing is, my knowledge and opinion on the matter is very much more accurate than most, for the fact that my oldest sister who is 15 is incredibly disabled, with symptoms near to Shiavo's since her birth. Whenever such an issue comes up it, and people condone ending such a person's life, my parents just shake their heads in dismay. They know the reality of this. They've lived through this, and walked through this sort of life of caring for this sort of person. Shiavo's husband didn't even do that much: he left her in a care home.

The things that were hidden is that Shiavo, as my sister, WAS responsive to outside stimulation. At colours, voices, and precence, she looked around. Furthermore, the problem is that the court ORDERED her dead. Do you know what this is like? Do you know who else did this? Nazi Germany. That is the first thought that came to mind when my parents thought this: America is becoming as Germany was. And through it all, there is this accursed semblence of it being 'enlightened' and the like. Selective euthanasia, the killing of the diabled, is only one step away from what brought on the Holocaust, we must remember. As I said, do not be fooled into what the media preaches.

But about the empires... well, Persia was more cultured even than the Hellenes, at least in the way that they treated their people. A few hundred years earlier, the Greeks, despite their level of philosophy, were essentially pirates and the like, infighting constantly. Persia from the outset treated all people under its power with respect. Cyrus over Alexander any day!

(Oh, and it's Darius, not Dario. Played too much Chrono Cross, eh?)

[Radical_Dreamer]

The autopsy revealed that she was blind. She was not responsive to sensory input, because she wasn't taking any in. She was being kept alive, while brain dead. She was being kept physically alive through artificial means. Are you saying that she was responsive and conscious with the severe damage the autopsy revealed, or are you suggesting that the media outright lied about the autopsy?

[Daniel Krispin]

The autopsy revealed that she was blind. She was not responsive to sensory input, because she wasn't taking any in. She was being kept alive, while brain dead. She was being kept physically alive through artificial means. Are you saying that she was responsive and conscious with the severe damage the autopsy revealed, or are you suggesting that the media outright lied about the autopsy?

Twisted it, likely. My sister is considered technically blind, because she cannot understand what she sees (or so it is said.) Yet still she responds to things. The media might have twisted this, and taken it as being outright blind. Like I said, on this topic, I can claim far more knowledge than 99.9% of people. And let me tell you, having lived with a sibling who is like this for fifteen years: those who say 'let them die, they have no real 'life'' are uninformed and absolutely wrong. The conservatives might be condemned for choosing life when not living the circumstance, but when the conservative (ie. me) has seen it firsthand... that's different. Always choose life, because your fate is not your own, and the endfruits of things are unseen to us. Can your clothes decide when they are too worn out to use anymore? It is the same with people, I should think.

[jotabe1789]

Well, in Spain we call it Dario...   since i don't know how to say that name in persian, i didn't want to assume that the english form would be the latin one  

I wouldn't absolutely want to live like that. I wouldn't be alive. Me, without my upper nervouse activity, without being most totally aware of my environment, without being able to interact, at a cognitive level... that's not me. I am not that. Even more, even if my brain worked correctly, and i couldn't move my body... I don't want to be like that. It's too painfull even thinking it... and i have a family example, my grandfather. He is half aware, able to talk and distinguish people voices sometimes, despite of a brain damage of the 60%, but aware of the pain of his body. But they can't give him strong enough painkillers because he might die of overdose. He always was a strong person, very hard headed, and even though he asks for death (being paralitic, he managed to throw himself out of the bed several times, beliving, in his delirium, that he was on a balcony), his inner strength keeps him alive.
I prefer to die, one hundred times... even bear an agony of minutes... anything before living like my grandfather, or living without my body, or living without my mind.

I am sorry, i feel too strongly about this. I won't decide for anyone else, even though i pray to God to release my grandfather... but i will decide for myself, if it is in my power.

[Radical_Dreamer]

The autopsy revealed that she was blind. She was not responsive to sensory input, because she wasn't taking any in. She was being kept alive, while brain dead. She was being kept physically alive through artificial means. Are you saying that she was responsive and conscious with the severe damage the autopsy revealed, or are you suggesting that the media outright lied about the autopsy?

Twisted it, likely. My sister is considered technically blind, because she cannot understand what she sees (or so it is said.) Yet still she responds to things. The media might have twisted this, and taken it as being outright blind. Like I said, on this topic, I can claim far more knowledge than 99.9% of people. And let me tell you, having lived with a sibling who is like this for fifteen years: those who say 'let them die, they have no real 'life'' are uninformed and absolutely wrong. The conservatives might be condemned for choosing life when not living the circumstance, but when the conservative (ie. me) has seen it firsthand... that's different. Always choose life, because your fate is not your own, and the endfruits of things are unseen to us. Can your clothes decide when they are too worn out to use anymore? It is the same with people, I should think.

They were saying that her brain, which at death was half the size of a normal human brain, lacked the capability to take in information from her eyes, and thus, while her eyes may have been a-ok, the signal had no where to go, so to speak, so she was blind. I condemn the conservatives for taking a family's tragedy, throwing it on to the national spotlight, and trying to defy the laws of the nation to interfere in what is ultimately not their buisneuss. The LAST people I want deciding who lives and who dies in this world are the politians; liberals, conservatives, or centrists.

Your clothes analogy is invalid. I throw them out at my behest, because they are tools to be exploited. That is not how I view life. Human beings, I believe, are their own masters. I don't believe in fate, I don't believe in pre-destination, and I don't know at what degree of brain damage a person is functionally dead (lacking any capacity for any sort of consciousness), and these are all terrible and difficult issues. That's why I think it's important to let your loved ones know what you want to happen to you if you ever wind up in a persistant vegitative (or similar) state. It's up to each individual. As for those that are born in such a state, I can't even begin to imagine what to do in that sort of circumstance, and erroring on the side of life doesn't seem wrong to me.

[Lordchander]

Ok, my friend at school once asked me to give 10 reasons why i wanna nuke america. All i said was: 'i dunno'. See? I have no reason whatsoever, so dont listen to me.

Also, how bout we nuke Russia?



~LC

[Zaperking]

Ok, my friend at school once asked me to give 10 reasons why i wanna nuke america. All i said was: 'i dunno'. See? I have no reason whatsoever, so dont listen to me.

Also, how bout we nuke Russia?



~LC

... I'm Russian..... Russia isn't as stupid as America. Everyone hates America. Well European countries do, unlike that disgrace of a European country (England) and it's commonwealth >.> All sucking up to America's tit. America's constitution is sad, and their presidents should be shot.
Blaming the Islamic world on all those terrorisms when the dip shits were the ones who set up those military camps in Afganistan to fight Russia, so America would have it's hands clean in the matter. But no... War raviged and poor, Afganistan turned against America with leaders like Osama Bin Laden. Terrorism to America and the Western world, they are freedom fighters in their right. If America's freedom fighters consist of Oil burning fu*kers and country invading morons who set up their own constitution in those lands, then they are or even worse then the Islamic freedom fighters, Middle Easten rebels etc. I don't see why most Islamic people fear the wrath of the Western World. One of my friends are appauled that their own people can bomb the USA, but another of my muslim friends says that they're just affraid. If I were in the Middle East, I wouldn't care about America. They deserve it, quite honestly. If you get your country on the bad side, then don't expect people and their countries to be nice to you. Luckily countries like Russia forgave America, being the nice people that we are, war is not one of our passtime hobbies, though we do get involved if we have to.

Roadmap to peace? Rubbish. Another American fools dream.

Rather than invading other countries and telling other countries to get rid of their nuclear weapons or they'll invade their country (O yeah, and America's nuclear weapons are for peace and harmony [/sarcasm]), they should get more involved in the Kyoto Protocol, etc.