Author Topic: Dungeon Gameplay  (Read 2111 times)

DeweyisOverrated

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Dungeon Gameplay
« on: August 16, 2005, 11:03:25 am »
It never really occured to me until just now how different the dungeon's in CT are when comparing them to other RPG's, such as FF, Lufia, and Zelda (whether or not you consider it an RPG.)  I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons CT has such a great appeal to it.

First off, there's very, very few switches in the dungeons.  Many of them aren't even required to get through the dungeon. (Think of the switches that open prisoner cells in Guardia Castle and Tyranno Lair).  The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are in Ocean Palace.  One makes the elevator go down, and the other two that raise the platform above the lava.  Now, think to any other FF game.  Switches are everywhere.  Often they activate some door on the complete opposite side of the map, and you have to really explore for 10 minutes before you find where it was.  None of that in CT.

Second, the dungeon map layouts are BASIC.  I mean really, really simple.  When's the last time you got lost?  Probably, never.  Magus' Castle?  You go STRAIGHT for what, 15, 20 minutes?  You can't possibly get lost.  And all the dungeons are like that.  One room leads straight into another.  No activating weird swithces, complicated puzzles, anything like that.  I honestly can't think of one "puzzle" you have to complete to advance to the next room in CT, with the exception of those two swithces in OP that lower the lava or whatever.

So, I'm wondering, is this part of the appeal of CT?  Obviously the main appeal is the storyline, but is this a more subtle one?  I've never seen it mentioned.  Like I said, I never even realized it until a few minutes ago.  So I'm wondering what you guys think.

Kazuki

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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2005, 03:11:13 pm »
I understand exactly what you mean, though I'm finding it hard to word it.

The simplicity of the design is definitly a factor; I find it helps keep the story, "fresh." For example, in FF games, I find that the dungeons are too long and it detracts from the story.

For example, in FF9, at the end when Memoria is formed, you're all set to fight Kuja, but before that you still have to traverse a long, annoying (but beautiful) dungeon with random encounters and a ton of bosses, so that when you get to Kuja, you feel drained and the tension/emotion that comes from being on the edge of the final battle is a bit saturated at that point.

In Chrono Trigger, when you're storming Magus's castle, you still have to fight enemies and traverse a dungeon, but it's very simple and straightfoward, so the emotions you feel remain fresher.

At least, that's what I think give CT's dungeons their charm. Oh, and the lack of switches is a plus :lol: .

Luminaire

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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2005, 11:25:58 pm »
there is also the stuff you have to do with the crane in the future factory place, along with the zabies code... (not really a swtich I know)

Oswego del Fuego

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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 11:30:31 pm »
Other than ZABIE and the crane codes, the other places with lots of traps or tricks were the Reptite Lair and the Tyrano Lair.

I always liked the fact that Trigger was relatively free of silly, gimmicky stuff like that.  I hate puzzles in RPGs.

OdF

Shadow_Dragon

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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2005, 01:06:35 am »
I hated that reptite dungeon.. I originally played Chrono Trigger on my old computer where the moniter was messed up, so it was always darker than it had to be, and I couldn't see the doors <_<

What really bugs me about a lot of RPGs is the random encounters; I had to stop playing Tales of Phantasia because I couldn't find my way through a dungeon and the random encounters were just TOO frequent for me to continue and maintain sanity; in games like FF6 and FF8 it wasn't a problem because you could equip stuff to get rid of random battles or make them less frequent if needed; Skies of Arcadia Legends allowed Aika to use Super Moves that took out most of the enemies in one attack most of the time, so random battles lasted a couple of turns at the most, and even then you could equip white/black maps to Vyse to increase/decrease the number of battles; then there are games like Breath of Fire III and FF1/2 in Final Fantasy Origins where you get into a random battle, double-press L (BOFIII) or hold down X (FF:O), and watch TV until the random battle's over; I really like it when an RPG has an encounter system like CT, CC, Tales of Symphonia, and Baten Kaitos where you know that you're getting into an encounter (sometimes they pop up in CT, but that's besides the point) even though, in Tales fo Symphonia and Baten Kaitos, leaving one room and coming back respawns the encounters


And, of course, I didn't mention FFIX because it's always cool-looking :)

Chrono'99

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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2005, 06:02:41 am »
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Other than ZABIE and the crane codes, the other places with lots of traps or tricks were the Reptite Lair and the Tyrano Lair.

I always liked the fact that Trigger was relatively free of silly, gimmicky stuff like that.  I hate puzzles in RPGs.

OdF

I had the impression that CT:CE will precisely have some "silly, gimmicky stuff", puzzles and long dungeons... I hope those are only a few special ones though.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2005, 12:38:43 pm »
I wouldn't call them gimmicks so much as I'd call them genre standards...

The puzzles in the Lufia series (mainly 2 and above as far as I recall) are done well, especially when incorperated w/their unique battle engagement system.

There are slight puzzles in CT, but nothing too fancy, like a lot of things in the game. The whole game was made easy and cliche. There's a few puzzles where the Mother Brain is...:wink: And Death Peak has some things to figure out...

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2005, 03:23:51 pm »
"Push the shell... Climb the shell."

LEIK WHAT SEHLL!!

Yea, I like not having the puzzlers in RPG's because its focus on story, not puzzles. Leave them to survival horror, and action/adventure games.

DeweyisOverrated

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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2005, 08:16:54 pm »
Actually, yeah, I forgot about Robo's sidequest.  I've always hated it, because it's really the only time the entire game you really have to think about moving around.

CatchRBFivy

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 02:26:23 am »
Yeah I guess I hate puzzles too.  I was playing Lufia for a while and got the the Ancient Dungeon which I have never beat so I am obsessing over it and will not advance in teh game because I like my party and I am not waiting for Gift Mode.  I was going insane with the puzzles and enemy movement and everything.... So I started up my CT rom in a new game + mode I left at the masamune quest and nearly stopped playing when I got to Tyrano Lair...the only thing that kept me going was that I knew Zeal was next and I kinda...well...missed Zeal...... :oops:   I"m a dork.

Hadriel

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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2005, 03:03:23 am »
I like puzzles, as long as there's enough combat to maintain balance.  I especially like it when puzzles require combat in order to solve them.  A real hero doesn't just need a strong body, but a sharp mind as well.  There were more than a few puzzles in CT, and certainly FF has a lot of them.

As for CE, the ruin dungeon outside of Calasperan I guess would fit that.  Other than that, the enemy strongholds aren't really dungeons so much as actual strongholds.  As Kyle Katarn has said, it doesn't make sense for a military outfit to hide a key or a control console a dozen floors above the door it opens.  The ruins, and certain temples in other games, were designed not to serve as bases of operation, but to serve as a deterrent to protect valuable items from those who are either unworthy or would use them for evil.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 06:52:14 pm »
The key to getting dungeon gameplay right is to engage rather than confuse or frustrate the player. "Puzzles," which in the broadest sense are defined as dungeon obstacles that do not involve plain combat, can be a very enriching part of the dungeon experience, or they can frustrate a player enough to turn the game off. There is nothing wrong with the premise of dunegon puzzles inherently.

I imagine that many people would say they like RPG puzzles that make them "stop and think" but "aren't too hard." Well, that's a load, really. "Stop and think" is a misleading idea altogether, and almost no one actually stops playing a game to think about what to do next. Usually we just muddle around the dungeon trying to find some clue or key we overlooked, getting increasingly angry when that strange-looking block won't move for the eighth damn time in a row that we try to push it, or when that frozen troll statue makes a sound whenever you step on a certain tile, but nothing else seems to happen. You know? A puzzle fails when people suddenly realize how limited their interface with the game really is. We say "If I were actually in there, I'd just..." but when all you've got is a controller and six buttons, connected to a simplified virtual environment where there is only ever one correct answer to a puzzle, then if you can't follow a puzzle's line of logic, then you're screwed. Then you go to GameFAQs and ask your question on the forums. Then they call you a n00b and trip over themselves to give you links to the FAQs. Then you look it up in a FAQ and the answer is so simple that it leaves you feeling empty and used.

The first big challenge for game developers is that many of the puzzles that are the most fun to design, are less enjoyable to solve. There's a very fine line between leading the player by the ear and giving no clues at all. The difference between a boring, mechanical puzzle that's far too easy and a horrible, confusing puzzle that's impossible to solve is extremely small, extremely subtle. The second big challenge for game developers is that different players enjoy different puzzles. I couldn't stand Majora's Mask because the puzzles took away from my enjoyment of the game rather than add to it, but I gather that many people actually enjoyed all that nonsensical running around, putting square pegs through round holes, and what have you.

Some developers say "Aw, fuck it!" and largely don't bother with puzzles. I had a great time with the Secret of Mana dungeons, because they didn't waste my time with bad puzzles. In fact they did very little by way of confusing puzzles or confusing layouts. Most of the game's dunegones were very short and to the point; I liked that. When you came across a long dungeon, it was fun because it was rare, hard, and something like a story progression marker--Elinee's castle, the Pandora Ruins, etc. Dungeons like those were a nice, long, hard slog with lots of enemies and no relief. A coupla' candies, a coupla' cups of wishes, and that's all you've got. The fun came from slogging your way through the battles, not knowing if you'd make it through, rather than unlocking some door with the twelve stones of power at the moment of celestial equinox...

But if you really want to tackle the problem and make an outstanding game, you won't just leave the puzzles out. You'll put in the best ones you can. And Chrono Trigger did pretty well in that regard. But I'll admit it didn't always succeed. The puzzle about Chrono Trigger that drove me the most crazy was...I think it was the Prehistoric island that appears as a sidequest late in the game, in one of the Guardia time periods. There's a room with a ladder in it, and I kept thinking there was supposed to be a way to get that stupid ladder to move down, but no. I was half insane with fury before I realized that you have to fall through the floor in that other room. (A cat shows you how to do this in the original Tyrano Lair; I had forgotten.) For me that was a terrible puzzle, because it was no fun at all and stopped me from progressing through the game.

Compare that with the puzzle in Chrono Trigger that I found the most boring...I think that one would have to be where you're onboard the Blackbird and you have to poke your way blindly around the air ducts looking to see which room is unguarded so that you can drop in and retrieve your gear. It was easy, but it took too long and offered no enjoyment along the way.

So what am I rambling on about? I dunno...just that I think it's not puzzles in general that deserve the blame when a player gets frustrated by one of them, but rather the nature of the obstacles they present, the clues offered as to their solution, the inuitiveness of that solution--that's an important one--and the execution of the puzzle itself.