Was most of the game post-Arris dome really necessary?

[Prince Janus]

So I had an interesting thought regarding the Day of Lavos in 1999, the post-apocalypse in 2300 AD, and the fate of the planet itself afterward.

 In Arris Dome, the party recovers some seeds from the basement and presents them to the people above, telling them that the seeds "could be their last hope" if the enertron fails. For the first time in possibly over a hundred years, Doan and the others become a little more optimistic, and "The Day The World Revived" begins to play.

 ..."the day the world revived..."    That's what I'm curious about. What if it really did?

 So, obviously there are a few obstacles at play, here. Time, robots, mutants, crap weather, etc. Given the game's themes of dreams, determination, and perspective on life, is it that hard to imagine a *tiny* population of humans surviving and slowly repopulating the Earth?  What if the party found a gate going even further ahead, say 5,000 years? 10,000 years? Would the planet actually be far more habitable?

 If you revisit Arris Dome later in the game, Doan will remark that, of all things, the seeds they planted are actually beginning to sprout. So, the soil is not infertile. After awhile, the seed very well could bear fruit, and thus Arris Dome could eventually gain a small garden. A garden of what exactly?? Unknown - if they are a mixed variety of a seeds though, there might be some survival essentials. It wouldn't be easy, but it is possible that not only could Arris Dome eventually become a functioning greenhouse with a healthy staff, but more healthy people could brave the ruins and set up greenhouses at other domes.

 As for Lavos? It's mentioned that in the future Lavos is leeching off the earth, slowly killing it. Thing is, it has already begun to produce children which will soon leave the planet. After that, it seems reasonable to assume Lavos will probably simply die off on its own. It might not survive long enough to completely kill the planet, especially when that planet clearly still has fertile soil and is capable of at least growing food.

 So, greenhouses start cropping up at domes, people get healthier, heck maybe even some repairs are done over the decades/centuries. Maybe even more unique seeds are discovered/planted? The machines try to stop them, and might set them back a little bit, but Mother Brain I think mentioned that part of the plan hinged on humanity becoming weak. That is starting to not be the case. Scrappy little humanity, the race chosen in prehistory for being tough survivors, manages just that. It wins out against the robots, and ekes out its own survival against the mutants as well. Eventually, the dust clouds over earth will settle, and though Earth *might* not be the same ever again, it at least might become something new. Ultimately, the Day of Lavos is no worse to humanity than the ice age, or the world post-fall of Zeal...

   ...aside from possibly saving other worlds from suffering the same fate as their own, as well as paving the way for the foundation of Chronopolis, the rest of the game might not have even been necessary.

[Razig]

In the DS version, Mother Brain predicts that the world may yet survive:

When that day comes, this planet will have its
chance to heal-so long as there are no humans
to interfere.

"That day" being when Lavos's spawn leave. Mother Brain can hardly be trusted, but it's possible she might know what she's talking about.

However, that would seem to contradict what we're led to believe at the campfire reunion: that the party has been witnessing the memories of a dying Entity. Maybe the Entity wasn't in as bad a shape as we thought, but that would make the whole thing less poignant in retrospect.

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think that what Mother Brain may consider as "heal" might not match with what a human might. After all, she considers that humanity's time is done, and it's now robots the ones who will inherit the planet.

Anyway, one can't ignore the Entity in this matter. Yes, the planet might recover, humanity may or not recover or the robots might replace them, but I would think the Entity would still rather not have to go through Lavos wounding it in such a way. Same for humanity. Yes, they could recover, but it's best to prevent the incident if you have the means, instead of just picking up the pieces.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I would think that what Mother Brain may consider as "heal" might not match with what a human might. After all, she considers that humanity's time is done, and it's now robots the ones who will inherit the planet.

This is an interesting thought and something I hadn't considered. Robots don't need plants (or food), and the planet "healing" may not be the same as to what humans would consider "healing."

..."the day the world revived..." That's what I'm curious about. What if it really did?

This is just my personal interpretation, but it wasn't necessarily a pure revival of the planet. I think the song's namesake really is surrounding hope for a better tomorrow. The people of 2300AD had no hope, had very limited resources (including food), and planet life simply didn't exist anymore (or at least it's implied as such). This is the first chance they've had at growing plants, and when it proves successful, it signified that not all hope is lost.

Sure, humanity may have survived... But I dunno, maybe the exodus of the Lavos spawns would have doomed the planet to an even greater degree? We don't really know how long they are on the planet and at what point in their maturity they leave the planet. For all we know, they may grow into full "Lavoids" and simply burst the planet apart in their final escape from the planet, moving on to harvest new genetic material elsewhere.

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think that what Mother Brain may consider as "heal" might not match with what a human might. After all, she considers that humanity's time is done, and it's now robots the ones who will inherit the planet.

This is an interesting thought and something I hadn't considered. Robots don't need plants (or food), and the planet "healing" may not be the same as to what humans would consider "healing."

If Mother Brain is the kind to plan ahead, she might decide to keep the plants. There's only so much energy sources, and biofuel might be considered, unless every robot operates on nuclear energy or something. Or vegetable carbon to make steel once mineral carbon runs out. Plants would have their uses for robots, I'd bet.

Sure, humanity may have survived... But I dunno, maybe the exodus of the Lavos spawns would have doomed the planet to an even greater degree? We don't really know how long they are on the planet and at what point in their maturity they leave the planet. For all we know, they may grow into full "Lavoids" and simply burst the planet apart in their final escape from the planet, moving on to harvest new genetic material elsewhere.

Could be possible. There's alsot the problem that the Lavos Spawn might inflict the same thing Lavos did, but in other planets. It's pretty much destruction on a galactic scale if allowed to spread.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

There's alsot the problem that the Lavos Spawn might inflict the same thing Lavos did, but in other planets. It's pretty much destruction on a galactic scale if allowed to spread.

My head theory is that Lavos isn't the only of it's kind and is essentially the apex cosmic predator. They go to planets with the capacity for life, manipulate the genetics to make the species at it's apex, then the Lavos entity consumes the apex genetic material, adds it to it's own, and spawns. The offspring then move on and do the same thing.

The question regarding this theory of Lavos as a species rather than a unique entity, then, is this: what makes "our" Lavos so different from other Lavoids in that it can exist in the Darkness Beyond Time and literally consume all of space time. Sure, we have the whole merging-with-Schala thing with the Mammon Machine (which was likely, in turn, powered by Lavos' own Frozen Flame aspect), but if Lavos isn't unique, the Frozen Flame likely wouldn't be, either.

Another topic for another thread. Sorry to drive this off course, hahaha...

[PrincessNadia78]

This is very interesting. So my thoughts are, had they not defeated Lavos would the human species and the Entity for that matter, merely survive and not thrive? Based on this question alone I honestly believe the rest of the game was absolutely necessary.

[Razig]

To clarify my previous post, I was just playing devil's advocate for the survival idea. Based on what we're shown in the game, I think the world/Entity was done for and seeing its life pass before its eyes (as discussed in the campfire reunion), and would have died without the aid of Crono and his friends.

[Lord J Esq]

This is an interesting conversation.

I can only speculate--wildly--but to me it seems that a few points are pertinent here:

1. At least some of the game's lore and substance was developed before the overarching thread of the Entity was conceived and overlaid. (In other words, the Dream Team when they were creating this game didn't start from a fully-fleshed-out grand vision; they kind of made stuff up as they went, creating the potential for inconsistencies here and there as well as occasional whirlpools of "This doesn't really have any deeper meaning.")

2. In 2400 AD, humanity had seemingly lost its spirit more so than its physical viability on the planet.

3. The Entity, as others have mentioned, is stated to have caused the events of Chrono Trigger as a way of reminiscing on its life.

Taking those things in mind, I would say that, from an external artistic perspective, there would have been nothing wrong with stopping the game at that point. However, that was not the story that the game's creators were apparently trying to tell.

I think Kato understood something that I have come to understand myself since the heyday of the Compendium: I think he realized that one day the dream will end...that we are all mortal. There's even a line by Magus at the very end of the game that explicitly says as much to us.

It's one thing to know that academically. It's another thing to truly understand the implications of it. And it creates a sense of death and loss and fleetingness that adds shadows and depth to the solid color tones of our youth.

I think, by the time the game was fully developed, Kato's idea was that the story painted a picture of a great world-spirit wistfully reflecting on its long chapters of life (represented by the different time periods) and its many adventures therein (represented by Crono & Co.). I do suspect he understood that kids would recognize and relate to the story's sense of adventure, its whimsical fantasy, and its strong ethical themes, while the deeper significance of the story's context would provide gratification to himself as an artist by "saying something."

[ZeaLitY]

Just chiming in late tot he party, but I remember not having played Chrono Cross yet, and thinking, maybe that would be the plot—that the Chrono Trigger team unintentionally wiped out a viable future in the Lavos timeline, and that whatever survived in that future (descendants of humanity, Mother Brain's robotic progeny, or both) would use the surviving pieces of Belthasar's workshop and the data within the Nu to try and save their future. Instead of the Chrono team having to face Lavos or some gargantuan oblivion again, they'd be pitted against other time travelers.

Of course, I don't think the same connection would be there if this were to be done in a ROM hack (especially where a fangame plot would rely so heavily on original characters), but I definitely share this curiosity on what life looked like post-2300 A.D. once the seed sprouted. It could still survive as an idea for the "Chrono Break" situation where the timeline is fragmented and several possible futures exist. No doubt, the scions of the Lavos timeline would come into conflict with the pre-Fall of Guardia team (who have no interest in a future where that happens!), who would also run afoul of the Central Regime of Home World, desperate to protect their hegemony and work on the Counter-Time Experiment. Radical Dreamers, a Mystic future, Dragonians again...anything's fair game, but the Lavos timeline people would definitely be the O.G.s.

[Prince Janus]

Just chiming in late tot he party, but I remember not having played Chrono Cross yet, and thinking, maybe that would be the plot—that the Chrono Trigger team unintentionally wiped out a viable future in the Lavos timeline, and that whatever survived in that future (descendants of humanity, Mother Brain's robotic progeny, or both) would use the surviving pieces of Belthasar's workshop and the data within the Nu to try and save their future. Instead of the Chrono team having to face Lavos or some gargantuan oblivion again, they'd be pitted against other time travelers.

Of course, I don't think the same connection would be there if this were to be done in a ROM hack (especially where a fangame plot would rely so heavily on original characters), but I definitely share this curiosity on what life looked like post-2300 A.D. once the seed sprouted. It could still survive as an idea for the "Chrono Break" situation where the timeline is fragmented and several possible futures exist. No doubt, the scions of the Lavos timeline would come into conflict with the pre-Fall of Guardia team (who have no interest in a future where that happens!), who would also run afoul of the Central Regime of Home World, desperate to protect their hegemony and work on the Counter-Time Experiment. Radical Dreamers, a Mystic future, Dragonians again...anything's fair game, but the Lavos timeline people would definitely be the O.G.s.

So, it's been a little while, but speaking of this point ZeaLitY made, it eerily reflects something Lucca said in her letter to Kid: that while she  ultimately believes they did the right thing, she still worries that someone from "later on in the old future" might come back and try to "Kill or capture us".

[Beach Bum]

There's alsot the problem that the Lavos Spawn might inflict the same thing Lavos did, but in other planets. It's pretty much destruction on a galactic scale if allowed to spread.

My head theory is that Lavos isn't the only of it's kind and is essentially the apex cosmic predator. They go to planets with the capacity for life, manipulate the genetics to make the species at it's apex, then the Lavos entity consumes the apex genetic material, adds it to it's own, and spawns. The offspring then move on and do the same thing.

The question regarding this theory of Lavos as a species rather than a unique entity, then, is this: what makes "our" Lavos so different from other Lavoids in that it can exist in the Darkness Beyond Time and literally consume all of space time. Sure, we have the whole merging-with-Schala thing with the Mammon Machine (which was likely, in turn, powered by Lavos' own Frozen Flame aspect), but if Lavos isn't unique, the Frozen Flame likely wouldn't be, either.

Another topic for another thread. Sorry to drive this off course, hahaha...

As far as I know, there's no indication that the production of the Frozen Flame wasn't intentional. And if, like you say, part of Lavos' grand purpose is to evolve the species on the planet it crashes into, it would make sense if producing a Frozen Flame is also part of that plan. After all, it was through the Flame that humanity evolved into something bigger, not through Lavos directly.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

As far as I know, there's no indication that the production of the Frozen Flame wasn't intentional. And if, like you say, part of Lavos' grand purpose is to evolve the species on the planet it crashes into, it would make sense if producing a Frozen Flame is also part of that plan. After all, it was through the Flame that humanity evolved into something bigger, not through Lavos directly.

This is exactly what I believe, too. Lavos created and intentionally led early humans to the Frozen Flame so it could help "guide" their genetic legacy optimization (and maybe speed up the process).

Interestingly enough, this is a very similar role that FATE serves with the Record of Fate - artificial constructs used to manipulate humankind into doing what a larger, almost deity-like entity desires.

[Prince Janus]

Just chiming in with something else I recently discovered:

 If you return to Trann dome later in the game, it turns out someone from Arris Dome actually *has* travelled all the way there, with more seeds.

 Interesting.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah, that's a neat little detail. Hm, you only just found out? It's not easy to miss, specially if you revisit Trann Dome to open up the Zealean door.