Author Topic: Why did Porre invade?  (Read 14016 times)

V_Translanka

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2005, 07:06:54 am »
But 1) doesn't Porre only invade in Home World? and 2) doesn't that only happen after 1005?

Lordchander

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2005, 07:12:05 am »
Quote from: V_T
But 1) doesn't Porre only invade in Home World? and 2) doesn't that only happen after 1005?


1) No they invaded in both. Though the actual time when Porre invaded El Nido was long before the time split, so that would have happened in both dimensions (cause remember anything before 1010 happened in both worlds)

2) Im not understanding what you mean, xplain more

Sentenal

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2005, 07:45:09 pm »
The invasion takes place in 1005...

Chrono'99

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2005, 06:43:34 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
The invasion takes place in 1005...

Actually, the fall of the kingdom happens in 1,005 AD, but we don't know when exactly the war began. We also don't know if there was an occupation by Porre of if the kingdom fell but not the actual Guardia country.

Sentenal

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2005, 01:11:36 pm »
All we do know is that Guardia is somewhat Soverign in 1020.

Kazuki

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2005, 05:12:56 pm »
Also, the future occupation of Termina by Porre in Another also aides the image of Porre being the major power.

Timeconfused

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 10:37:43 pm »
This is the one problem I've had trying to figure out in this series, the rest I've been able to explain to myself after weeks of research and wasting time.
I believe that this, along with explainations of what exactly the Dead Sea* is, would result from a clear ending. If Poore's militarism is because of Fiona's forest, or wanting to get it's hands on the Masamune or Sun Stone, we would have been able to see the beginnings of its military nature in CT, after we made those changes. The only changes we can't see are those after Crono and co. defeat Lavos, because the game ends. This would suggest that El Nido's discovery is the cause of Poore's militarism. As indicated in an interview with MK (not sure if I got that right...) there was an influence outside time that caused Poore's military build-up. This could be a number of choices. The two main ones I think have the greatest possibility of wanting Poore to build up it's military are FATE and Belthasar. FATE would because once Poore had discovered El Nido, FATE would want to prevent any major changes on the main continent that might prevent it from being built, and if it could spread its manipulation through Poore, and through Poore's dominance, the entire world, it could ensure its existance. However, FATE would probably be opposed to that idea as it majorly affects the future in a way that could possibly be harmful. Belthasar on the other hand, may have forseen Poore's military strength and conquest to somehow be useful to bring Serge to save Schala, since we already know how much else he's manipulated.

Either way, I believe that a more definite resolution would have revealed this as well as other questions like the formation of the Dead Sea. With Schala saved Project Kid is unneccessary and thus Chronopolis may never have had to been built (or at least travel through time). This would mean that FATE could not spread its influence through Poore as it isn't around. However, Schala says that now Serge can live his life, but this would neccessitate the create of the El Nido islands by Chronopolis (and then in would also appear to create the need for Serge to be saved from doom as he was twice in CC, unless perhaps Marbule did have a cure) and if FATE is still around then Poore's militarism would presumably be enforced. However if Belthasar organized the whole thing he could simply go back into time and erase the change once Serge saved Schala, allowing Guardia to flourish once again. Yet none of this is really explained in any detail in the game, I have a feeling that the developers purposefully left unanswered questions in the game in order for a sequel to more easily be fit in (CT really didn't have many loose plot strands and those it did have were turned into this convoluted plot).

*I say this because when visiting the Dead Sea they blame Serge for somehow causing it to happen, yet if Serge gets to live his life in the end of the game, wouldn't the future predicted in the Dead Sea still come to pass since Serge is alive?

GrayLensman

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2005, 12:21:20 am »
Quote from: Timeconfused
*I say this because when visiting the Dead Sea they blame Serge for somehow causing it to happen, yet if Serge gets to live his life in the end of the game, wouldn't the future predicted in the Dead Sea still come to pass since Serge is alive?


Quote
Miguel:
   The Dead Sea is the true
   form of this planet's future.
   That's right...
   At one stage our world was on
   the verge of such inevitable
   destruction...
   That was in 1999, when the
   parasitical alien life-form known
   as Lavos awoke after centuries
   of feeding off this planet.
   Lavos fell from the heavens a
   countless number of years ago
   and burrowed deep beneath the
   surface to eat and sleep.
   Slowly but deliberately, Lavos
   devoured our planet from the
   inside out...waiting for the time
   to ripen for its true awakening.
   Finally Lavos did awake and
   manifested its true form on
   the surface of the planet.
   That's when our world faced a
   death from which there seemed
   no possibility of escape...
   
Miguel:
   Were it not for a teenage boy
   and his group of adventurer
   friends, that is...
   These young heroes caught a
   glimpse of this planet's future
   destruction as it appeared in
   the year 2300.
   They realized they could not
   turn their backs on our planet,
   even if its death would not be
   anywhere near their lifetime.
   Time traveling from epoch to
   epoch, they battled Lavos for
   the future of our planet, and
   eventually won.
   But in saving our planet from
   the death Lavos was going to
   bring about, they also changed
   the course of history...
 
 [Lucca]
   At that very moment,
   this whole future time
   axis ceased to exist.
   Call it cause and effect...
   It is just a problem of
   possibilities, after all...
   In this world, there are
   no such things as
   absolutes or certainties.
 
 [Marle]
   But the future that
   was supposed to have
   disappeared is about
   to be restored here...
   The future destruction
   of our planet is going
   to become a reality in
   this world once again...
 
 [Crono]
   The vengeance of the
   future we killed is
   about to begin...
   With Serge serving
   as the trigger...
   
Miguel:
   Perhaps, or perhaps not...
   Either way, it is all part of
   the grand game of the gods...
   and '"goddesses!"'
   People are dragged into playing
   this game...forced to put their
   own lives on the line...without
   even knowing the rules.
   Without even being allowed to
   complain, they try to do their
   best under the conditions
   placed upon them...
   The only alternative is to give
   up and leave the playing field
   in a forfeit...

Miguel:
   Three years ago, members
   of the Acacia Dragoons
   from Termina visited here...
   Those knights were after
   the Frozen Flame, of course.
   But instead they became
   salt for the Dead Sea...
   You see, only the chosen
   one can approach the
   Flame...

Miguel:
   It looks like Fate has made
   its decision and has started
   to carry it out now...
   FATE doesn't want the Frozen
   Flame to awaken in this place
   at this time...
   It would choose to destroy the
   Flame along with the whole Dead
   Sea, than to allow its enemies
   to take hold of the Flame...

Miguel:
   This lost future is about to
   disappear into the darkness
   beyond the dimensions again...
   You have no time to spare.
   You must leave here
   immediately!
   Quick...go!


From the article Salt for the Dead Sea:

Quote
Armageddon-Branch Theory
 GrayLensman

Crono could not have defeated Lavos in Home World. The event which spares Serge's life also creates a plurality of dimensions from 1010 onwards. Since there is only one Crono in 1000 AD to defeat Lavos, only the future in Another World is saved.

Further Explanation

In the original timeline (Another World) Serge dies in 1010 AD, but Kid changes the past, somehow creating an alternate dimension in which Serge lives (Home World). Another World always existed; it is the original dimension, but Home World only extends from 1010 AD onwards. In 1000 AD, Crono exists in Another World. If he travels through time, he can only reach a destination within his own dimension. When Crono defeats Lavos in 1999 AD, or any other time, the battle takes place in Another World. In 1000 AD, there is only one version of Crono. If Crono lived past 1010 AD, there would be a version for each dimension, but that version did not travel through time to defeat Lavos. In Home World, no savior appears in 1999 AD to save the future. Serge caused the destruction of the world by spawning an alternate dimension which is beyond 1000 AD Crono's notice or reach. He does not undo any of Crono's actions. In Another World, the future is secure, at least until the Time Devourer arrives. There cannot be multiple Crono groups because there is only one dimension in 1000 AD!


The prevailing theory is that Serge is responsible for the destruction seen in the Dead Sea because his survival created Home World.  The Dead Sea reflects the future of Home World.  The frozen landscape in the Dead Sea is, in fact, from the original Lavos timeline of Chrono Trigger.  By living, Serge created a dimension where Crono does not save the future from Lavos.  After the Time Devourer is defeated, only Another Dimension exists; therefore Crono is able to defeat Lavos in 1999 AD.

The dead sea is not the future as it would be destroyed by the Time Devourer.  Remember that the TD would consume all space-time.  If the TD became complete in the Darkness Beyond Time, the entire timeline would be destroyed, not just the future.

Quote
Belthasar:
   The Frozen Flame is a
   splinter from the extra-
   terrestrial being Lavos.
   
Belthasar:
   The one who connects with
   the Frozen Flame, in effect,
   links with Lavos itself.

[b[Belthasar:
   As the mediator between Lavos
   and living things, that one will
   gain extraordinary powers!
   By binding with the new
   seed of destruction...
   the '"Devourer of Time!"'[/b]

Belthasar:
   The Devourer of Time
   is a new life-form...
   Born out of the fusion of a
   life-form from this planet with
   Lavos, who nests on the far
   side of the dimensional void.
   
Belthasar:
   In the far-off future, when
   the fusion becomes complete,
   IT will awaken...
   
Belthasar:
   Then, the Devourer of Time
   will begin to consume all
   space-time continua...
   Despair and hatred...
   To return all things to
   nothingness...
   That is what IT desires.


This part of the script also implies that Serge is an integral component of the Time Devourer.  This is part of a theme which was supposedly removed from the game during production.  Serge, as the Arbiter, had a choice between fusing with the TD to destroy the world, or destroying the TD to free Schala.

AuraTwilight

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2005, 06:52:57 pm »
Quote
After the Time Devourer is defeated, only Another Dimension exists; therefore Crono is able to defeat Lavos in 1999 AD.


That doesn't make sense though. If there's only Another, then Serge still has to die. The way I see it, Schala's salvation removes her influence from the DBT, thusly meaning no magnetic storm, Serge doesn't become Arbiter, Serge never has to die, no time split. Yay!

Sentenal

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2005, 08:25:28 pm »
Yeah, I wouldn't say that only Another exist.  I took it as Another and Home merged to form a new, real dimension.

GrayLensman

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2005, 10:05:46 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
After the Time Devourer is defeated, only Another Dimension exists; therefore Crono is able to defeat Lavos in 1999 AD.


That doesn't make sense though. If there's only Another, then Serge still has to die. The way I see it, Schala's salvation removes her influence from the DBT, thusly meaning no magnetic storm, Serge doesn't become Arbiter, Serge never has to die, no time split. Yay!


But Serge is alive at the end of the game.  Only Another World exists, but there is a new timeline, so it doesn't follow the events seen in Chrono Cross.  Lynx won't exist, so Serge won't drown.

Timeconfused

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2005, 01:02:04 am »
That makes sense, thanks for that, I guess I never read that far into the Dead Sea thread ( though I did try, I think I got sidetracked by a link to Axioms and Timelines or something and ended up posting here). Still I'd like to know about Chronopolis and the rise of Poore, did they still happen after CC? It seems like Chronopolis must have in order to create El Nido, but then does FATE once again control everything, and did whatever outside influence affected Poore undo that influence once Schala was saved, if I can figure this out for sure I'd finally be able to put the game to rest and be able to stop reading Chrono Cross websites when I should be doing homework...
If there's no major evidence to the contrary (and the theories on the Poore's Rise article, which I read all the way through, don't seem to solve it much) I'm just going to accept that it's all part of Belthasar's deus ex machina solution to this game's plot.

Sentenal

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2005, 01:23:36 am »
Chronopolis, and El Nido, for the reasons you listed, and others, couldn't not have been the cause for Porre's rise.  Something else must have happend.  I believe this was material planned for Chrono Brake/Break.

Timeconfused

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2005, 02:13:09 am »
Well, my last statement is kinda off topic, I want to know whether FATE and Chronopolis are still around whether or not they influence Poore.  Since Schala was saved then Chronopolis and FATE don't need to be around (as Poore's military rise doesn't need to occur if Belthasar did indeed do it) except to let Serge live.

AuraTwilight

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Why did Porre invade?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2005, 02:46:56 am »
Quote
But Serge is alive at the end of the game. Only Another World exists, but there is a new timeline, so it doesn't follow the events seen in Chrono Cross. Lynx won't exist, so Serge won't drown.


Exactly. Serge is alive, so we can't call it Another. It's a new world with a bit of both dishes.