You Don't Need The Pendant To Open The Gates

[V_Translanka]

Damn, I just realized this (while I was reading over "Mortonhayle's CT Parody" >_>)...Lucca doesn't need the Pendant when she travels to catch up w/Crono in 600...I totally forgot about this and have made a few posts saying that the party needs both. I felt like a formal apology thread was needed...Plus, a heads up to anybody else who may have similarly have blundered

[Sir Frog]

You're right in that Lucca doesn't need the pendant on that trip.  However, don't forget that that entire portion of the game makes no sense.

According to our commonly accepted (by other people ) axioms, Crono and Lucca (and the rest of their timeline) should have been sent to the DBT the moment Marle went back in time. They were not. This is significant. Here we have one of the few glimpses (the only glimpse?) of someone going back in time from the perspective of someone who does not go back in time.  According to the [principle of discarded timelines], the timeline we the gamer were experiencing should have been relegated to the DBT.  Whoops.  Guess the theory doesn't hold up all the time.  

Edit:  As pointed out below, I incorrectly referred to the principle of discarded timelines as the time bastard theorem. I have since corrected my post.  For the record, it was simply a minor gaffe on my part.  I am--and always have been--aware of the difference between the two theories.

[Eriol]

According to our commonly accepted (by other people 8)) axioms, Crono and Lucca (and the rest of their timeline) should have been sent to the DBT the moment Marle went back in time. They were not. This is significant. Here we have one of the few glimpses (the only glimpse?) of someone going back in time from the perspective of someone who does not go back in time.  According to the TB Theorem, the timeline we the gamer were experiencing should have been relegated to the DBT.  Whoops.  Guess the theory doesn't hold up all the time.  :o

You're talking about the Principle of Discarded Timelines, not Time Bastard.  "Kind of" related, but different.  Make sure you keep your terms straight.

But you remain correct about this situation.  This situation occurred to me yesterday.  Only a few explanations:
1.  Marle becomes her own great(x10) grandmother.  Ugh, but possible due to time traveller immunity.  Theoretically this could be an ever-occuring 12-generation traveller.  Marle replaces Leene, and has descendants, etc, and so "New Marle" could have had the SAME events occur at the fair with Crono, etc.  Crappy explanation, but possible.

2.  Marle is discovered as an imposteror, Leene replaces, and Marle lives on quietly not greatly affecting the timeline.  Again, a "cop-out" explanation, but possible IMO.  Marle only "temporarily" replaces Leene, Frog STILL rescues the real Leene (as in Lavos Timeline), and there's no big problem.

In both cases, the timeline where Crono, Lucca, etc, SEE Marle go back in time gets thrown out, but theoretically the SAME events could occur in the "replaced" timeline, and thus they DO "go after her", though I think there's other problems (even accepting Time Bastard, IMO there's STILL problems).

Now this is NOT the "only" occurance of observing others go back.  Same thing happens with Lucca saving her mother, though that one's easier to dismiss as EVERYBODY camping together already had immunity, and thus it is no big deal.

But this requires resolution IMO.  What happened?  How can this be resolved?  ESPECIALLY with the idea of Lucca joining them "partway in".  This seems rather fishy as well.  New theorum perhaps?  Expansion on something else?

[AuraTwilight]

Keep in mind that in the ending where Crono stays dead, Lucca makes the Telepod into a time machine. Same principle for her traveling to 600 AD. As for the Marle paradox, um....The Entity did it.

[Sentenal]

The entity excuse works here, but I still don't like it.  This is a plot hole, unexplainable by any theory other than the entity one.

[V_Translanka]

Perhaps it has to do w/the madness of Marle disappearing because Leene's killed because they found Marle and thought she was Leene but if she disappears they'd have to look for Leene, but if they looked for Leene after Marle disappears it probably wouldn't matter...Don't worry, what I just said only sounds circular.

[Eriol]

Keep in mind that in the ending where Crono stays dead, Lucca makes the Telepod into a time machine. Same principle for her traveling to 600 AD. As for the Marle paradox, um....The Entity did it.

We're not saying that Lucca couldn't have figured out how to do it, we're saying that the moment Marle went back ALONE that time should have changed.  There's no "grace period" for "if you travel fast enough, you're not sent to DBT after a change".  Immediately when they're sent back, your current timeline is invalidated.  So how did they KNOW to go back after her?

There's actually a deeper problem with travelling back in time here, I just know it.  Something about going to the point where you go back, then cycles, etc.  I know I'm thinking about something wrong here, but there's another problem too...

[Sentenal]

The only part about this that gives credance to the entity idea is that time isn't changed immediately, it only happens AFTER crono and lucca get there.  So people say that Marle was removed.

[Weggy]

Perhaps im missing something, but even if Marle just lived out her life and died in 600 AD, how would that effect anyone in 1000 AD?  It's not like she had children or anything.

[Leebot]

I saw the Leebot signal in the sky, so I've rushed to your rescue!

Okay, trying to explain this outside the Entity theory:

First, we have to assume that somehow Marle going back in time doesn't invalidate her existence unless Lucca also shows up. It seems a stretch, but causality can be incredibly complicated (The Butterfly Effect).

If this is the case, we have the following series of events:

Marle travels back in time and lives out her life in some manner without Crono or Lucca there. A similar timeline is spawned which features a new Marle going back in time. By the rules of Time Bastard, this new Marle never reaches the past, and no third timeline is created (yet).

This second timeline is allowed to continue, and then Crono goes back in time to 600 AD. A similar process to above happens, and a third timeline with no significant change in 1000 AD happens.

In this third timeline, the new Marle and Crono both go back and get voiped. Then, Lucca engineers a way to travel back, and arrives in 600 AD. She does something which causes Marle to be nonexistant in this fourth timeline, the entity reaches in and plucks her out to prompt Lucca's reasoning and the restoration of the timeline, and so on...

Yeah, it seems implausible, but it's apparently the only way it can work without either more intervention from the Entity or being a plot-hole.

[GrayLensman]

I took so long to compose this message that Leebot posted first, oh well.

You're right in that Lucca doesn't need the pendant on that trip.  However, don't forget that that entire portion of the game makes no sense.

According to our commonly accepted (by other people ) axioms, Crono and Lucca (and the rest of their timeline) should have been sent to the DBT the moment Marle went back in time. They were not. This is significant. Here we have one of the few glimpses (the only glimpse?) of someone going back in time from the perspective of someone who does not go back in time.  According to the TB Theorem, the timeline we the gamer were experiencing should have been relegated to the DBT.  Whoops.  Guess the theory doesn't hold up all the time.  

As stated above, that is outside the scope of Time Bastard, which applies to time travelling entities and not entire timelines.

Time Bastard states that:  if an entity time travels into the past (creating a new timeline according to the  Principle of Discarded Timelines), a new version of this entity can only exist up to the point of the time traveling entity's original departure, at which time the new version of the entity will be sent into the Darkness Beyond Time.

This theory only explains how duplicate entities are prevented from being created through time travel.

Other than Marle's inexplicable disappearance and Lucca's seemingly contradictory explanation, this scenario doesn't necessarily violate the Compendium's "Standard Model" of time travel physics.

Guardia Royal Line Paradox
Criticism of Sea of Eden/Dead Sea FAQ
Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox

[list=1]

• When Marle initially time travels to 600 AD, her presence in the past results in a new timeline being formed, sending the original timeline to the DBT.
• In 1000 AD, Crono and Lucca are instantaneously discared and replaced by new versions of themselves.  Since they still exist and remember Marle time traveled, in this timeline the Guardia royal line was not interrupted.
• When Crono traveled through the warp, another timeline was created in which both Crono and Marle exist in the past.  In 1000 AD, another new version of Lucca is created.  Since Lucca still exists and remembers Marle and Crono time traveling, the Guardia royal line was not interrupted in this timeline either.
• After Lucca constructs the Gate Key, she follows after Crono and Marle, creating another new timeline consisting of the events witnessed in the game.  Queen Leene doesn't die because Crono saves her.  Marle disappears, supposidly because she doesn't exist in the timeline.  The future version of Marle may or may not exist.
• Once Lucca, Marle and Crono return to 1000 AD, the timeline is not noticably changed from the original.  If the new version of Marle didn't exist in the previous timeline, she does now.
[/list:o]
The effects of Crono and Lucca's actions immediately and instantaniously affect the timeline when they emerge in 600 AD.  The future doesn't change as they act, except when time traveling.  From the perspective of 1000 AD, all of the time travelers actions have already occured once they emerge in 600 AD.

[DeweyisOverrated]

Perhaps im missing something, but even if Marle just lived out her life and died in 600 AD, how would that effect anyone in 1000 AD?  It's not like she had children or anything.

Remember that she was taken in to be the new Queen, and that the old Queen had been kidnapped and rescued.  Now that their Queen was there (mistakingly) they wouldn't have rescued the actual Queen.  So no kids, etc.

[Zaperking]

As I said in another post, it's all to do with time. Frog originally had to save Leene. But because Marle was thought to be Leene, he didn't end up saving her. In the original time line, Frog pretty much had a metaphorical deadline to when he had to rescue Leene. Because this was prevented, Time saw it as Leene never having Kid's and hence Marle was sent to the DBT until the natural flow had to be fixed, in other worlds - Leene having been saved.

There's no need to make huuuuge theories about this... Especially since there is no proof that more than one time line exists before Crono and Marle go to the fair and the whole insident occurs. Let's stick to game evidence, shall we >.>

[V_Translanka]

Frog originally had to save Leene. But because Marle was thought to be Leene, he didn't end up saving her. In the original time line, Frog pretty much had a metaphorical deadline to when he had to rescue Leene. Because this was prevented, Time saw it as Leene never having (kids) and hence Marle was sent to the DBT until the natural flow had to be fixed, in other worlds (words?) - Leene having been saved.

But then why did Marle disappear? Shouldn't she have only disappeared only after the deadline was exceeded and thus you couldn't have saved Leene at all?

[Zaperking]

I'm not saying that the deadline was for Leene to die. I'm talking on the lines of the moment that Frog realises where Leene is. It's the fact that that should have happened around the time Marle was found in the new timeline. But it was changed and hence the deadline for Frog realising where she probably was was changed because he thought that Leene was already saved.