Author Topic: Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?  (Read 13519 times)

Zenning

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« on: August 30, 2005, 09:00:46 pm »
So, what do we know about Lavos?

-Lavos descended to Earth from the Cosmos.
-Why DON'T know where it originally came from.
-Lavos can communicate telepathically and mentally manipulate those with weak minds and strong ambitions.
-Radiation from its body tears holes in time and space.
-It's a parasitic lifeform that devours a planet's resources THEN DESTROYS THAT PLANET.
-It looks like a giant, spiky demon turtle king from Hades.

You see some contradictions?

One, the radiation from its body tears holes in time and space. Crono and company used these wormholes to conquer Lavos. Perhaps, Lavos was created by somebody who made this failsafe that allowed its destruction, if it went out of control? Perhaps it really WAS a biological weapon from another planet?

Two, why would Lavos bother destroying a world if it had already taken all of the nutrients from it? Perhaps, no matter how efficient Lavos was, it couldn't take all of the nutrients from a planet, or simply took all the nutrients until it had grown to maturity? Why then, still, would Lavos destroy the planet? Perhaps, there were MULTIPLE Lavos, who competed in feeding off planets, and didn't want their rivals getting their hands on their own source of nutrition? Perhaps, Lavos was actually a sentient race, and each individual being of this race was at odds with each other?

So, what do you think? Lavos: Biological weapon? Or, Lavos: Sentient Lifeform?

Where did Lavos originate from? What was its purpose?

I've given my own theories, what are your own theories about Lavos?
Or, perhaps, you've something to say about my own theories?

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2005, 09:46:55 pm »
Firstly, isn't there an article on this somewhere discussing whether or not Lavos is evil or just a parasite? Anyone know; I can never find these damn things...?

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-Lavos can communicate telepathically and mentally manipulate those with weak minds and strong ambitions.


Uh, since when exactly?

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-Radiation from its body tears holes in time and space.

the radiation from its body tears holes in time and space. Crono and company used these wormholes to conquer Lavos. Perhaps, Lavos was created by somebody who made this failsafe that allowed its destruction, if it went out of control? Perhaps it really WAS a biological weapon from another planet?


Lavos didn't create the Gates. This goes against the very reason that the Entity is discussed. The Entity created the Gates and Lavos is not the Entity.

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-It's a parasitic lifeform that devours a planet's resources THEN DESTROYS THAT PLANET.

why would Lavos bother destroying a world if it had already taken all of the nutrients from it?


Again, since when? There's nothing saying that Lavos "destroys the planet" as you're thinking of it. The planet is just sapped and dead, not necessarilly esplod'd or w/e...

teh Schala

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2005, 09:58:42 pm »
I think what he meant by destroying it was simply that Lavos absorbed DNA and such for as long as possible (until 1999) and then arose and blew the crap out of everything.

As far as Lavos having telepathy, well, Lavos' effect on Queen Zeal was very similar to the effect of the Ring on other people in LotR.  And the Frozen Flame, if it counts, seemed to have the same effect as well.

While we don't exactly know whether Lavos or the Entity is the source of the Gates (at first, the characters believe one thing, then later they believe another), even if the Entity is the source of the Gates, there's no question that Lavos DOES have some sort of time-related abilities, as can be glimpsed easily in the final battle.

As for me, I'm inclined to think Lavos is a sentient being.  Whether I can prove it or not, I think Square intended Lavos to be that way.  Like an alien invasion, except by only one alien.  It's Parasite Eve on a different level.  It's about how we seem to think we're the top of the food chain, but maybe there's something bigger, more powerful, that breeds us just as we breed cattle and pigs.  That's probably the idea Square wanted to point out with both CT and with PE, and in that light, I'd have to say Lavos is a sentient being that knows what it's doing.  It knows it's killing billions of people and it doesn't care.  However, if we're discussing Lavos' origin, I can't help but also think of Starky's FF quote in Cross.

Radical_Dreamer

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2005, 10:09:36 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Firstly, isn't there an article on this somewhere discussing whether or not Lavos is evil or just a parasite? Anyone know; I can never find these damn things...?


http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Ethics_of_Lavos

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2005, 10:17:35 pm »
Quote from: The Ethics of Lavos Page
From: Articles


That's why I can never find anything...I'm retarded!

Quote from: teh Schala

I think what he meant by destroying it was simply that Lavos absorbed DNA and such for as long as possible (until 1999) and then arose and blew the crap out of everything.


Well, then he's just wrong because the planet isn't destroyed at all...People are just pwnt (again)...

Quote from: teh Schala
As far as Lavos having telepathy, well, Lavos' effect on Queen Zeal was very similar to the effect of the Ring on other people in LotR.


I don't believe this because I still hold that Zeal is just crazy...

Quote from: teh Schala
While we don't exactly know whether Lavos or the Entity is the source of the Gates (at first, the characters believe one thing, then later they believe another), even if the Entity is the source of the Gates, there's no question that Lavos DOES have some sort of time-related abilities, as can be glimpsed easily in the final battle.


First, I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's not Lavos and is in fact the Entity that created the Gates. Second, I'm not argueing that Lavos can create Gates, I mean, this is shown in Magus' flashback...but Lavos' Gates seem like they're mostly black, one-time use only Gates...I just think that there's contradictory in-game evidence pointing to the fact that Lavos isn't responsible for the creation of the Gates (that Crono & Co. use to defeat Lavos).

Weggy

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2005, 10:56:27 pm »
He'd have to be a pretty bad parasite/weapon/whatever if he created a means to lead to his downfall.

I'm inclined to think hes some sort of weapon.  If hes just there to replicate himself like a parasite, simply for survival, he really doesn't have a reason to rise up in 1999 AD to blast the crap out of the planet.  That takes a lot of energy that would be better used to create more spawns.

Lord J Esq

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 11:05:46 pm »
My jury is still out on the question of Lavos’ sentience...

~~~
Lavos Is Not Sentient

1. Back in the day Square sure did love to personify oblivion in the form of the Final Boss, and Lavos may simply be one of their more colorful attempts at this.

2. If you look at Schala’s speech at the end of Chrono Cross, she goes on about this idea of a planet being a living egg and its life forms comprising a myriad of “spermatozoa,” any one of whom could inseminate the planet and create a new universe. (No comment) Since Lavos is the exact opposite, slowly killing the planet off and corrupting its life forms, that could provide a conjectural bit of support for the idea that Lavos is not a sentient entity who has its own sense of purpose.

3. Some of Lavos’ actions were counterproductive, even plain stupid. But if you look at Lavos as a personification of oblivion rather than an evil mastermind, it all makes a lot more sense. Poke Lavos with a stick, as happened in 12,000 B.C. and 600 A.D., and it Unleashes the Dragon on yo ass. But otherwise it doesn’t actively do anything at all...it just gobbles up DNA (don’t ask me how that works) and seems to emanate vibes of sadness and anger that take root in sentient people’s minds.

4. Lavos has no dialogue, just a primal screech. This may not seem important, but in a space-limited RPG, everything counts. I searched the CT script for every mention of “Lavos” and found absolutely no attributions of character, only continuous references to Lavos’ power, might, immortality, and sleep. Queen Zeal mentions Lavos’ “dreams,” but then corrects herself to “eternal nightmare.” She later says that “At last, Lavos awakens!” Lucca calls Lavos’ lifecycle the “ultimate in evolution,” but in context it isn’t persuasive to me that evolution is meant to be synonymous with sentience. I then checked the Chrono Cross script, and again found no attributions to Lavos of any of the faculties of reason. Lucca mentions Lavos’ “hatred and sadness,” but these are construed as raw emotions without rational thought behind them, and it is actually Schala who devises the grand notion to destroy existence. Nowhere in these two games is any sentient, reasoned characteristic imputed to Lavos.

~~~
Lavos Is Sentient

1. The Frozen Flame is almost certainly sentient. As a splinter of Lavos, this implies the same of Lavos.

2. The machines in the ruined future seem to have it going on with Lavos. Whether this is false pride or a genuine dialogue, however, remains unclear.

3. From a Western point of view, it is hard to argue that the ultimate evil in the world does not have a sentient will behind it. I would caution, though, that the Chrono games were not created in the monotheistic West. In fact, this might more properly belong in the “Lavos is not sentient” column.

4. Devil’s advocate. While officially undecided, I seem to be more of the mind that Lavos is not sentient. Thus, I would ask “How can this be disproved?” The challenge is yours.

Zenning

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2005, 01:11:19 am »
Quote from: teh Schala
I think what he meant by destroying it was simply that Lavos absorbed DNA and such for as long as possible (until 1999) and then arose and blew the crap out of everything.

Precisely. How could that NOT count for destruction? The only possible worse thing than charring the surface of the planet, is if Lavos made the planet EXPLODE.

Quote from: teh Schala
As far as Lavos having telepathy, well, Lavos' effect on Queen Zeal was very similar to the effect of the Ring on other people in LotR.  And the Frozen Flame, if it counts, seemed to have the same effect as well.

This is precisely what I meant, is that Lavos manipulated Queen Zeal. And possibly Azala, as he/she was the one who summoned Lavos back in Prehistoric times.

Quote from: teh Schala
While we don't exactly know whether Lavos or the Entity is the source of the Gates (at first, the characters believe one thing, then later they believe another), even if the Entity is the source of the Gates, there's no question that Lavos DOES have some sort of time-related abilities, as can be glimpsed easily in the final battle.

I know that, in Chrono Trigger, the characters mentioned a relation between Lavos and the presence of Time Gates. I need to replay Chrono Trigger again...it's been 3 years. I'll have to get reinformed, then explain my stance on this.

Quote from: teh Schala
As for me, I'm inclined to think Lavos is a sentient being.  Whether I can prove it or not, I think Square intended Lavos to be that way.  Like an alien invasion, except by only one alien.  It's Parasite Eve on a different level.  It's about how we seem to think we're the top of the food chain, but maybe there's something bigger, more powerful, that breeds us just as we breed cattle and pigs.  That's probably the idea Square wanted to point out with both CT and with PE, and in that light, I'd have to say Lavos is a sentient being that knows what it's doing.  It knows it's killing billions of people and it doesn't care.  However, if we're discussing Lavos' origin, I can't help but also think of Starky's FF quote in Cross.

Teh Schala, you are Teh Awexome!

If anything, taking the basic raw facts into account, my very least conjecture is that Lavos is doing what it does to survive: take DNA from the planet.

Why it destroys the host planet afterwards?

My conjecture for this being a little more grandiose, because there is more than one Lavos, and they're all in competition with each other for survival. Why leave behind something that your enemy can survive off of? I believe that Lavos takes a "charred earth" philosophy in warfare; it destroys resources that it can't use or doesn't need, so it doesn't leave anything behind for its enemies to use.

At least, that's the only rational explanation I have for Lavos's planetary demolition policies.

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2005, 03:31:05 am »
I think that Lavos' eruption is just a prequal to the spawning process. Kill everything so nothing fugs w/it's spawn. I could see it being a problem if Lavos simply rose quietly, and snuck his spawn to Death Peak...Lavos doesn't want humans to know too much about it, I dont' think...

Quote from: Zenning
I know that, in Chrono Trigger, the characters mentioned a relation between Lavos and the presence of Time Gates. I need to replay Chrono Trigger again...it's been 3 years. I'll have to get reinformed, then explain my stance on this.


Yeah, Crono & Co. discuss how Lavos is responsible for the Entity's dying death thing...i.e. the Planet. And thus the Entity/Planet creates the Gates.

Lord J Esq

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2005, 03:46:12 am »
Hey...you're a Nu now. I think ZeaLitY's going to have to make a special Pink Nu just for you, if you keep outposting all the rest of us put together times a bajillion. =P

Zaperking

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2005, 03:47:20 am »
Quote from: Zenning

This is precisely what I meant, is that Lavos manipulated Queen Zeal. And possibly Azala, as he/she was the one who summoned Lavos back in Prehistoric times.


Queen Zeal does not have a weak mind. She was upset at the death of her husband and was corrupted. Azala did not summon Lavos. The red star was falling before you even got to Azala. Why the hell would Azala summon Lavos if the reptites would die cuz of it.

Secondly, if Azala was as powerful to summon something so great, then Azala should be the second hardest boss, and he's not.

Now really, Have you even played CT or CC? If you have, you really need to replay it >.> If you haven't, then do it now >.>

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 08:00:43 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Hey...you're a Nu now. I think ZeaLitY's going to have to make a special Pink Nu just for you, if you keep outposting all the rest of us put together times a bajillion. =P


Hey, I still post less than...uh...ZeaLitY! And hardly any of my posts have been in that one thread in the General Forum where people just post one word responses! And those posts that are in that thread aren't just one word responses! But a Pink Nu Spekkio thing would be awesome...

Quote from: Zaperking
She (Zeal) was upset at the death of her husband and was corrupted.


I'd say more like "was insane w/" than "was upset at"...but w/e...

Quote from: Zaperking
Azala did not summon Lavos.


Oh yeah, that's true...I didn't even realize that Zenning had posted that >_>

If Azala (who I've oft believed was female) summoned Lavos she sure did pick a horrid place to summon it ^_^

AuraTwilight

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 07:53:34 pm »
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Lavos can communicate telepathically and mentally manipulate those with weak minds and strong ambitions.


You mean when Zeal's soul was corrupted when she drank Lavos' power AGAINST IT'S WILL? Yea.

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It's a parasitic lifeform that devours a planet's resources THEN DESTROYS THAT PLANET.


Yea, um.....Making room for it's thousands, possibly millions of kids?

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One, the radiation from its body tears holes in time and space. Crono and company used these wormholes to conquer Lavos. Perhaps, Lavos was created by somebody who made this failsafe that allowed its destruction, if it went out of control? Perhaps it really WAS a biological weapon from another planet?


Tis the Entity that did that deed.

Quote
Two, why would Lavos bother destroying a world if it had already taken all of the nutrients from it? Perhaps, no matter how efficient Lavos was, it couldn't take all of the nutrients from a planet, or simply took all the nutrients until it had grown to maturity? Why then, still, would Lavos destroy the planet? Perhaps, there were MULTIPLE Lavos, who competed in feeding off planets, and didn't want their rivals getting their hands on their own source of nutrition? Perhaps, Lavos was actually a sentient race, and each individual being of this race was at odds with each other?


Doesn't that kinda contradict the conjecture of Lavos being a weapon, which you seem to support? Anyway, why do kids fry ants with a magnifying glass? They're superior. They practically OWN those ants. They can do whatever the hell they want with them.

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So, what do you think? Lavos: Biological weapon? Or, Lavos: Sentient Lifeform?


It could be both, but I doubt he's a weapon. What kind of race makes something that advanced, doesn't do anything when they can't control it, and designed it to target infantile planets they have no grudge with, take MILLIONS of years to bide it's time, then destroy it when the race has probably forgotten about it? That's just stupid.

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Where did Lavos originate from? What was its purpose?


Whatever planet it's parent invaded and gave birth to Lavos on. It's purpose is to evolve and better the gene pool.

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Again, since when? There's nothing saying that Lavos "destroys the planet" as you're thinking of it. The planet is just sapped and dead, not necessarilly esplod'd or w/e...


I guess killing the life on a planet counts as destroying it, to be fair.

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This is precisely what I meant, is that Lavos manipulated Queen Zeal. And possibly Azala, as he/she was the one who summoned Lavos back in Prehistoric times.


NO! Azala did not influence Lavos in any way! Why the HELL would the Reptilians bring down Lavos if they're so Earth-friendly? Not to mention, HOW THE HELL can they?!

Quote
My conjecture for this being a little more grandiose, because there is more than one Lavos, and they're all in competition with each other for survival. Why leave behind something that your enemy can survive off of? I believe that Lavos takes a "charred earth" philosophy in warfare; it destroys resources that it can't use or doesn't need, so it doesn't leave anything behind for its enemies to use.


So....wait....You're making it seem like Destroying planets is a form of economy. Dude, the Lavoids are working for the benefit of the entire Lavoid gene pool! They're being counterproductive if they work against each other and themselves. Zebras don't eat other Zebras.

Kazuki

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 09:06:43 pm »
If Lavos was a gigantic weapon, what would be the motive? Like what Aura said, it wouldn't make sense for them to waste all that power on one little planet.

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2005, 09:52:40 pm »
I think that Lavos (and Lavoids in general) could be giant, biological weapons designed to attack an enemy planet...But perhaps the Lavoid race was too powerful for it's creator planet to endure and the project got out of control!!!

But w/e...It's all up in the air until they make a game about Lavos' origin...