Author Topic: Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?  (Read 13582 times)

ZeaLitY

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2005, 10:09:51 pm »
I'm throwing in the fact that Lavos's mind has a distinct, emotive effect on Schala's mind to the pot for sentience or not. If there is a way that this emotional influence can be ruled against sentience, do bring it up.

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2005, 10:14:18 pm »
Do you mean in CC? I think that's different though because it's like, not Lavos anymore. It gets pwnt by Crono & Co. then merges w/Schala and maybe then you could say that it gains conciousness...consciousness? Damn my spell-brain-thing!

Lord J Esq

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2005, 12:47:27 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I'm throwing in the fact that Lavos's mind has a distinct, emotive effect on Schala's mind to the pot for sentience or not. If there is a way that this emotional influence can be ruled against sentience, do bring it up.

I touched on that earlier in this topic. Just because Lavos' emanations inspire a change in the state of mind of those who are susceptible to those emanations does not imply sentience on the part of Lavos.

Zenning

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2005, 01:18:11 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Zenning
This is precisely what I meant, is that Lavos manipulated Queen Zeal. And possibly Azala, as he/she was the one who summoned Lavos back in Prehistoric times.


Queen Zeal does not have a weak mind. She was upset at the death of her husband and was corrupted. Azala did not summon Lavos. The red star was falling before you even got to Azala. Why the hell would Azala summon Lavos if the reptites would die cuz of it.

You COULD say that Queen Zeal DID have a weak mind, being distraught at the death of her husband, THEN falling into darkness because of it. Why wouldn't you think so? Just because it's too cliche?

As for Azala, she DID summon Lavos; she summoned Lavos because she knew the Reptites would die out, but didn't want the planet going to the humans or "Apes," as she called them.

She tells us this after we defeat her Black Tyrano in her Tyrano Lair. Azala was full of herself when she kept telling the humans they would be the ones to die out.

How did Azala know her kind was fated to die out? Because she's telepathic. You witness her telepathic powers when you fight against her along with the Black Tyrano. Also, Ayla tells you that Azala is very smart, and that Azala knows things that she couldn't otherwise know if she wasn't telepathic.

Quote from: Zaperking
Secondly, if Azala was as powerful to summon something so great, then Azala should be the second hardest boss, and he's not.

Not quite. Magus summoned Lavos in 600AD, and he's hardly as strong as Lavos, or even second strongest to Lavos, at that.

We know this, because, after we defeat Magus in his lair, he corrects us when we say that he created Lavos, and he tells us that he only "SUMMONED" Lavos.

And let's not forget, when Lavos was summoned at the Ocean Palace, Lavos incapacitates Magus.

My point being, just because you're strong enough to summon Lavos, doesn't mean you're strong enough to kick ass.

Quote from: Zaperking
Now really, Have you even played CT or CC? If you have, you really need to replay it >.> If you haven't, then do it now >.>

Yes, I've played Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross; my memory's still foggy, but I'm replaying Chrono Cross right now.

Don't worry, I'll study hard just for you, just so I can realize how correct you actually are! You are just such a GOD, with all of your Chrono knowledge! I bow down to thee!

...you can stop trying to roleplay as Janus now. The snootiness is getting really obnoxious. That, and you should straighten out your facts, too. You may be correct about some things, but you're still not 100%, and you'd benefit from straightening your own facts for yourself, as well.

I can admit when I'm wrong, and I think you can do the same.

...so, ehh, yeah. Tell me I don't know jack, and I'll let you have it.


Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
Lavos can communicate telepathically and mentally manipulate those with weak minds and strong ambitions.

You mean when Zeal's soul was corrupted when she drank Lavos' power AGAINST IT'S WILL? Yea.

What do you mean when you say Queen Zeal "drank" Lavos's power?

Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
It's a parasitic lifeform that devours a planet's resources THEN DESTROYS THAT PLANET.


Yea, um.....Making room for it's thousands, possibly millions of kids?

I guess that could be the reason, but it's not like every maternal creature kills everything around the nest that its trying to raise its children in. Lavos being insanely overprotective of its spawn? Well, it IS a theory, and not too improbable.

Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
Two, why would Lavos bother destroying a world if it had already taken all of the nutrients from it? Perhaps, no matter how efficient Lavos was, it couldn't take all of the nutrients from a planet, or simply took all the nutrients until it had grown to maturity? Why then, still, would Lavos destroy the planet? Perhaps, there were MULTIPLE Lavos, who competed in feeding off planets, and didn't want their rivals getting their hands on their own source of nutrition? Perhaps, Lavos was actually a sentient race, and each individual being of this race was at odds with each other?


Doesn't that kinda contradict the conjecture of Lavos being a weapon, which you seem to support? Anyway, why do kids fry ants with a magnifying glass? They're superior. They practically OWN those ants. They can do whatever the hell they want with them.


Not at all! I support that Lavos is a sentient lifeform. However, I see your point. I'll agree that it's quite possible that Lavos has an image of itself being God-like next to us "insignificant" humans. Good theory.

Ehh, but I still think Lavos is a bit more logical than just being drunk with its own power.

Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
So, what do you think? Lavos: Biological weapon? Or, Lavos: Sentient Lifeform?


It could be both, but I doubt he's a weapon. What kind of race makes something that advanced, doesn't do anything when they can't control it, and designed it to target infantile planets they have no grudge with, take MILLIONS of years to bide it's time, then destroy it when the race has probably forgotten about it? That's just stupid.

You're saying it's impossible to design a biological weapon with that large of a gapping flaw?

Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
My conjecture for this being a little more grandiose, because there is more than one Lavos, and they're all in competition with each other for survival. Why leave behind something that your enemy can survive off of? I believe that Lavos takes a "charred earth" philosophy in warfare; it destroys resources that it can't use or doesn't need, so it doesn't leave anything behind for its enemies to use.


So....wait....You're making it seem like Destroying planets is a form of economy. Dude, the Lavoids are working for the benefit of the entire Lavoid gene pool! They're being counterproductive if they work against each other and themselves. Zebras don't eat other Zebras.


Zebras are vegetarian, anyway. Bad example! However, I do believe you are onto something regarding Lavos, and it's desire to benefit its entire generation, along with its desire to evolve. Though, I still think my theory is more interesting! :D

Either way, thanks for your input, as I DID ask for it!

V_Translanka

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2005, 05:54:49 am »
Quote from: Zenning
How did Azala know her kind was fated to die out? Because she's telepathic. You witness her telepathic powers when you fight against her along with the Black Tyrano.


Telepathic powers and TELEKENETIC powers are two very different things entirely...

Quote from: Zenning
Not quite. Magus summoned Lavos in 600AD, and he's hardly as strong as Lavos, or even second strongest to Lavos, at that. We know this, because, after we defeat Magus in his lair, he corrects us when we say that he created Lavos, and he tells us that he only "SUMMONED" Lavos. And let's not forget, when Lavos was summoned at the Ocean Palace, Lavos incapacitates Magus. My point being, just because you're strong enough to summon Lavos, doesn't mean you're strong enough to kick ass.


(For the sake of it just looking better I made it all one paragraph)

We also know that Magus' summoning is ufcked up...So that, in reality, he doesn't summon Lavos at all...But that's besides the point...I don't think there's enough evidence pointing that Azala actually literally summoned Lavos. You can see Lavos before Azala states everything about the Red Star falling & such...

Quote from: Zenning
I can admit when I'm wrong, and I think you can do the same.


Even if you think someone's being snotty or w/e (and really, I don't see it in Zaperking's post myself...), let's try and not stoop to their levels and thus make our precious forums anything like GameFAQs...Mmmmkay?

Quote from: Zenning
What do you mean when you say Queen Zeal "drank" Lavos's power?


I believe Aura was using 'drank' to mean took or drain Lavos' power...as she does...It's kind of like a...what? A metaphore? One of those englishy words...who can keep up?

Quote from: Zenning
I guess that could be the reason, but it's not like every maternal creature kills everything around the nest that its trying to raise its children in.


Aha, but therein lies your predicament. 1) Lavos isn't just any creature/organism 2) Lavos is contending w/very intelligent beings (humans) and 3) Lavos shows us in Zeal that it doesn't take kindly to humans ufcking w/it's shit.

Naz

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2005, 08:18:01 am »
I doubt Azala would punish the planet for not choosing his race to be able to live. She was probably just thinking, "We're gonna die, and you're gonna die later. Why not fight one last time?" She seemed to respect the entity's choice.

Zaperking

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 10:21:13 am »
1) No one truely ever summoned Lavos. It just a word meaning that they opened up his PD and Lavos was able to come through of it. In the Ocean Palace, Lavos was not summoned, but awakened because he felt his power draining, and so came out to stop them from doing it.

2) Azala only shows Telekenesis. That is simply the power to move things with the mind. Since no one else is probably as advanced, Azala wouldn't be able to train Telepathy. Also, Telepathy doesn't mean you have foresight. To be a telepath simply means to be able to communicate silently without any actions or anything, just by sending brain waves to another person.

3)Saying that Azala summoned Lavos would destroy the whole aspect that we learned in CC. The Reptites WERE going to win. But in a slight change of plan, Azala saw the red star fall, and knew that both humans and reptites would die one day. He probably didn't realise that Lavos would acctually fall on the Reptites, but thought that the dust cloud would kill them all, because that's pretty much what he was saying.

4) CC says that Azala and his kind were always connected to the planet. In the Reptite dimension, Lavos never fell so the Reptites eradicated the humans. Now why would Azala destroy the planet just because the reptites will die? No one would kill their mother just because they were going to die. And Azala wouldn't want his planet destroyed just because he's destined to die with the humans.. Which isn't true since the Reptites wuda won anyway.

Zenning

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2005, 01:42:02 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
1) No one truely ever summoned Lavos. It just a word meaning that they opened up his PD and Lavos was able to come through of it. In the Ocean Palace, Lavos was not summoned, but awakened because he felt his power draining, and so came out to stop them from doing it.

Okay, now we're going into semantics and "wordyness." It's true Lavos was not "summoned" in the Ocean Palace, he just awoke because they were probing him too closely with the Mammon Machine.

But, as for those other instances, how do you explain the appearance of the "Red Star" (Lavos) before we face Azala for the last time, let alone the fact that Lavos falls on Tyrano Lair?

How do you explain how Lavos awakens after we fight Magus?

How do YOU explain those instances, then? Mere coincidence?

Quote from: Zaperking
2) Azala only shows Telekenesis. That is simply the power to move things with the mind. Since no one else is probably as advanced, Azala wouldn't be able to train Telepathy. Also, Telepathy doesn't mean you have foresight. To be a telepath simply means to be able to communicate silently without any actions or anything, just by sending brain waves to another person.

I disagree with this point you make. I still think Azala is psychic, and when you're psychic, you get the whole package: telekinesis and telepathy. And part of having telepathy, or ESP, in addition to being able to read others' thoughts is the ability to foresee future events without even any foreshadowing of said future event.

Quote from: Zaperking
3)Saying that Azala summoned Lavos would destroy the whole aspect that we learned in CC. The Reptites WERE going to win. But in a slight change of plan, Azala saw the red star fall, and knew that both humans and reptites would die one day. He probably didn't realise that Lavos would acctually fall on the Reptites, but thought that the dust cloud would kill them all, because that's pretty much what he was saying.

I'm pretty sure Azala foresaw the downfall of the Reptites. I'm going to have to look at this part of the script again.

Quote from: Zaperking
4) CC says that Azala and his kind were always connected to the planet. In the Reptite dimension, Lavos never fell so the Reptites eradicated the humans. Now why would Azala destroy the planet just because the reptites will die? No one would kill their mother just because they were going to die. And Azala wouldn't want his planet destroyed just because he's destined to die with the humans.. Which isn't true since the Reptites wuda won anyway.

Ehh, I'd have to disagree with this, too. Azala was proud person, and if she couldn't have the Planet, she didn't want it "going to the 'Apes'." I remember her distinctly saying this before we fight her and her Black Tyrano. Or perhaps, it was AFTER we defeated Azala. HOWEVER, I'll still look at the script.

Just FYI, Azala IS female.

Quote from: Naz
I doubt Azala would punish the planet for not choosing his race to be able to live. She was probably just thinking, "We're gonna die, and you're gonna die later. Why not fight one last time?" She seemed to respect the entity's choice.

Again, I still believe Azala didn't want to go down without a fight.

Luminaire85

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2005, 02:20:19 pm »
Let's consult the script, shall we?

Quote
AZALA: Hear that lovely voice?
   You'll soon become the best of
   friends!
   
AZALA: Red star...
   Fall!!!!!
   Stain the earth...RED!

AZALA: Though it may be our fate to
   perish, we will not simply hand this
   world over to you!

AZALA: Mwa ha ha! With this Black
   Tyrano I can finally exterminate
   those filthy apes!

To me there is no indication here that Azala summoned Lavos. The "lovely voice" is the Black Tyrano, which is what Azala thinks will exterminate the humans, not the "red star". The fact that Lavos fell on the Tyrano Lair does not mean that Azala summoned Lavos; perhaps Lavos selected the Lair as a landing place. Is this a sign of sentience? Or evolutionary instinct? Could be either. Personally I've always treated Lavos as a parasite, so I would probably argue against sentience.

As for whether or not Magus summoned Lavos, the script makes it pretty clear:

Quote
Magus: You fools!
   I only «summoned» him!

However, I believe that Azala could not summon Lavos, as the other instances of Lavos's summoning/appearing occurred when It was already in the planet's core. I also do not see any sign of telepathy from Azala. You do not need to be psychic to foresee the future.

Chrono'99

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2005, 04:17:25 pm »
Quote from: Zenning
Just FYI, Azala IS female.

Look in the CT and CC scripts if you want to see (or rather not see) it for yourself: Azala's gender is never mentioned.

Zenning

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2005, 05:54:43 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zenning
Just FYI, Azala IS female.

Look in the CT and CC scripts if you want to see (or rather not see) it for yourself: Azala's gender is never mentioned.


Can we stop arguing about details that are only minutely related to the discussion at hand? Azala did/didn't summon Lavos, Magus did/didn't summon Lavos, someone/no one tried to summon LAvos, Azala is/isn't psychic, Azala is male or female.

Do those above topics have anything to do in respect to whether Lavos is a sentient lifeform or biological weapon? No.

The point and purpose of this thread is discussing whether you think Lavos is a sentient lifeform or biological weapon, or whatever else Lavos could possibly be, along with whatever intentions it has.

(And I see that many of the people who wanted to argue about the above topics haven't had anything to say about the actual topic of this discussion).

Obviously, I've been sidetracked by someone who is just out to prove they're right about something; now, I'm getting this thread back on track.

If you're just some weasel nitwit out to prove something, then this entire post addresses YOU.

DeweyisOverrated

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2005, 06:36:00 pm »
I'm going with parasitic sentinent being.  If "he" was a weapon of mass destruction, in terms of having the series last one game, there would have been a mother planet to travel to and destroy before they sent more.  Plus, Lavos spawns.  It'd be hard to believe a weapon could reproduce itself.

Zaperking

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2005, 06:37:22 pm »
Threads's are supposed to turn out like this. If you incline something in a previous post, people can retort. Also, It does have something to do with Lavos.

1) I said that the way to summon Lavos is to open up a barrier between the world and the pocket dimension >.> Since there is no other way to enter it unless Lavos leaves himself.

2) So what if Lavos landed on Tyrano Lair? How the hell does that prove anything. It would have been smarter of Azala if he (I use he as unisex) did really summon Lavos to make him fall onto the Huamn villages, rather than the Tyrano Lair?

3) It's obvious that Azala knew what would happen when the red star would fall. He knew that both reptites and humans would be doomed anyway, especially if Lavos had landed on Ioka Village:
"
Azala: Red star...  Fall!!!!!  Stain the earth... RED!  Though it may be our
fate to perish, we will not simply hand this world over to you!  Mwa ha ha!  
With this Black Tyrano I can finally exterminate those filthy apes!
A battle ensues.
Azala: No... It can't be...!  Could the heavens truly have sided with the
apes?  Listen, primates, and let it be known.  We Reptites fought bravely to
the bitter end!
Ayla: Ayla understand...
The screen flashes red.
Ayla: !?
Azala: Soon, stones of fire will rain down.  Flames shall scorch the land.  
The burned plains will slowly freeze, ushering in a long, cruel ice age.  Mwa,
ha ha... what a treat!  You will wish you went along with us!  Mwa ha!
Ayla: Lavos...
Ayla: Ayla's word.  La means fire.  Vos means big..."

"Though it may be our Fate to perish" - Obviousally Azala knew that if the comet/Lavos/Red Star hits, the Reptites won't be able to survive. So in a last attempt, he tried killing them with the Black Tyrano. This does not work, obviousally. And then he goes on to say how the heavens sided with the humans, and that they will survive.

4) Yet again, Azala is closer to the planet than anyone else. Azala is only proud that he is a reptite and that he knows that they are superior to the humans. He only tried using the Black Tyrano to defeat them, but this did not work. Lavos is not summoned by him. Azala does not have the power, or the motive to do so.

AuraTwilight

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2005, 06:57:56 pm »
Quote
As for Azala, she DID summon Lavos; she summoned Lavos because she knew the Reptites would die out, but didn't want the planet going to the humans or "Apes," as she called them.


NO! Azala doesn't have that kind of power, because MAGIC DIDN'T EXIST YET, STooPID! Not to mention that like, Azala would be dooming the Planet, her GOD, to the pain of Lavos.

Quote
How did Azala know her kind was fated to die out? Because she's telepathic. You witness her telepathic powers when you fight against her along with the Black Tyrano. Also, Ayla tells you that Azala is very smart, and that Azala knows things that she couldn't otherwise know if she wasn't telepathic.


If Azala was telepathic, why the hell would she waste her breath asking Crono what the Gate Key was, then not believe him if he tells the truth?!? THE HELL? And the being fated to die out thing? Yea, I think big falling stars do that to races.

Quote
Not quite. Magus summoned Lavos in 600AD, and he's hardly as strong as Lavos, or even second strongest to Lavos, at that.


Second Strongest to Lavos? WTH? Magus isn't that strong. If anyone deserves that title, it's Queen Zeal.

Quote
...you can stop trying to roleplay as Janus now. The snootiness is getting really obnoxious. That, and you should straighten out your facts, too. You may be correct about some things, but you're still not 100%, and you'd benefit from straightening your own facts for yourself, as well.


Holy crap, I can't stop laughing because of the fucking IRONY!

Quote
You're saying it's impossible to design a biological weapon with that large of a gapping flaw?


I'm questioning the MOTIVE! Why attack an infantile planet with no intelligent life whatsoever? (by the time they launched Lavos, of course.))

Quote
Zebras are vegetarian, anyway. Bad example! However, I do believe you are onto something regarding Lavos, and it's desire to benefit its entire generation, along with its desire to evolve. Though, I still think my theory is more interesting! :D


Exactly. Zebras are vegetarian. Thanks for proving my point, Einstein! >_> And your theory is wrong no matter how interesting it is. Facts>Fun

Quote
But, as for those other instances, how do you explain the appearance of the "Red Star" (Lavos) before we face Azala for the last time, let alone the fact that Lavos falls on Tyrano Lair?


Falling on planets is part of his LIFE CYCLE! Durdehdoo! :D And the Lair is in the middle of the Map, which Queen Zeal describes as the best place to gather Lavos' Power, where Lavos will rise, etc.

Quote
How do you explain how Lavos awakens after we fight Magus?


Impartial summoning :D

Quote
I disagree with this point you make. I still think Azala is psychic, and when you're psychic, you get the whole package: telekinesis and telepathy. And part of having telepathy, or ESP, in addition to being able to read others' thoughts is the ability to foresee future events without even any foreshadowing of said future event.


Says who? Parapsychology is not a concrete science yet, and in fiction, the creators can do whatever the hell they want.

Quote
I'm pretty sure Azala foresaw the downfall of the Reptites. I'm going to have to look at this part of the script again.


She foresaw the downfall of the Repitites BECAUSE of the fall of Lavos. Not the other way around.

Quote
Ehh, I'd have to disagree with this, too. Azala was proud person, and if she couldn't have the Planet, she didn't want it "going to the 'Apes'." I remember her distinctly saying this before we fight her and her Black Tyrano. Or perhaps, it was AFTER we defeated Azala. HOWEVER, I'll still look at the script.


She didn't want humans to have the Planet because they're HURTING it! Why would she be a hypocrite like that? No matter how proud she is, the Reptites are like, Planet Worshippers.

Quote
Again, I still believe Azala didn't want to go down without a fight.


Really? then what was that BOSS BATTLE?

Quote
If you're just some weasel nitwit out to prove something, then this entire post addresses YOU.


The Compendium always kinda sidetracks it's discussions. That's called intellectual progress :) people aren't going to make a new thread for every little thing when it can be answered in one or two posts.

Kazuki

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Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2005, 07:18:46 pm »
Quote
Again, I still believe Azala didn't want to go down without a fight.


Really? then what was that BOSS BATTLE?

Wait...wouldn't the boss battle prove that she indeed did not want to go down without a fight?...I think I misread something. If I have, I apologize.