Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?

[Lord J Esq]

All y'all's got to stop thinking of the Entity as some God sitting on an Omnipotent Throne. Entity does this! Entity does that! Entity slays the Hittites! Uh uh. That's not how it works.

Sometimes an artist will skew the facts in order to emphasize a theme. I think the in-game attribution of the Time Gates to the Entity is an artistic motif, one that clashes with some of the facts on the ground, such as the obvious fact that Lavos was the power behind at least the Ocean Palace gates. Trying to reconcile every fact in a fictitious work is to stray from the truth of that work, because where art is concerned it is the perception more so than the reality that determines meaning.

But none of this has any bearing on whether Lavos is sentient or not. GrayLensman got it right when he said:

The portals were either created by the Entity as part of its plan (the portals did not appear in the original timeline), or they were inadvertently created by Lavos' energy. It is unlikely that Lavos would purposefully warp Janus and the Gurus to safety instead of killing them.

That's pretty much the end of this line of discussion. The question of Lavos' sentience seems to have no answer in the Time Gates.

[GrayLensman]

You're saying that the Entity practically rewound time like a tape in a VCR...and then recorded over it...

That's what changing the past essentially means.  When an entity time travels, the existing timeline is discarded in the Darkness Beyond Time and a new timeline is created.

No. Janus and the Gurus were transported in the first timeline. In CT, there's only two timelines. Lavos, and Keystone. The transport of Janus and the Gurus is a crucial point in time. It happens in all known timelines except the Reptite dimension.

There are far more than two timelines.  Every time Crono time traveled, he created a new timeline.  There is no reason to believe that other timelines did not exist before Magus' TTI memories.  The time travel of Janus and the Gurus is important, but that does not mean it had occur before any timeline changes.

Wtf... Zenning had a point.
There are only 2 time lines in CT. It is canon. Anything else is not. The portals produced that sent the Guru's and Janus were most likely due to something to do with Lavos. Since Janus, Melchior and Belthasar were the first to be sent through the time portals, they counted as the '3'. When Gaspar was ported, he arrived in the area of the End of Time. I doubt the Entity did anything at all since It disturb things. I mean, if the entity did it, it'd be smarter to send Melchior to Belthasar so they could plan something out or All 3 Guru's in one area, and Janus to the EoT. You know..

There is nothing canon about only two timelines existing in Chrono Trigger.  In fact, Crono created many more than two timelines during his journey.  The names of the Lavos and Keystone timelines were coined by Zeality as part of theoretical discussion, not some official source.

Why do the Guru portals have to have anything to do with Lavos at all?  There is no evidence that Lavos created a single Time Gate, purposefully or not.  I doubt Lavos would do anything of the sort, as it would threaten its survival.

The Gurus would not be affected by the Conservation of Time because they all entered separate portals.  Time travelers are only sent to the End of Time when four or more entities enter a Time Gate at once.

I wouldn't say whether or not it was a wise course of action to send Janus and the Gurus to different time periods.  Lavos was defeated in the end, so the Entity must have been doing something right.

I think the in-game attribution of the Time Gates to the Entity is an artistic motif, one that clashes with some of the facts on the ground, such as the obvious fact that Lavos was the power behind at least the Ocean Palace gates.

What is so obvious about this fact?

[AuraTwilight]

All y'all's got to stop thinking of the Entity as some God sitting on an Omnipotent Throne. Entity does this! Entity does that! Entity slays the Hittites! Uh uh. That's not how it works.

Only things I blame the Entity for is Marle, Dinopolis, and the Time Gates.

There are far more than two timelines. Every time Crono time traveled, he created a new timeline. There is no reason to believe that other timelines did not exist before Magus' TTI memories. The time travel of Janus and the Gurus is important, but that does not mean it had occur before any timeline changes.

I know there's more than two timelines, but the ones Crono creates during his journey are so shortlived and insignificant it's easier to think of it as two in the situation of timetraveling Zealians.

If they don't get warped by the Ocean Palace incident, then there's no Mystic War, and no Millenial Fair, no Crono crew uses the Telepod to bork up time. No incentive to change history so that Janus and the Gurus DO get transported.

Why do the Guru portals have to have anything to do with Lavos at all? There is no evidence that Lavos created a single Time Gate, purposefully or not. I doubt Lavos would do anything of the sort, as it would threaten its survival.

Who said he did it on purpose? The gate created during Magus' summoning was obviously done by Lavos. The Ocean Palace incident also dangerously drew on Lavos' energy. Same thing applies.

[GrayLensman]

I know there's more than two timelines, but the ones Crono creates during his journey are so shortlived and insignificant it's easier to think of it as two in the situation of timetraveling Zealians.

If they don't get warped by the Ocean Palace incident, then there's no Mystic War, and no Millenial Fair, no Crono crew uses the Telepod to bork up time. No incentive to change history so that Janus and the Gurus DO get transported.

Janus and the Gurus were not warped out of the Ocean Palace because Crono changed history.  Those events had happen before Crono event started time traveling in the first place.

Who said he did it on purpose? The gate created during Magus' summoning was obviously done by Lavos. The Ocean Palace incident also dangerously drew on Lavos' energy. Same thing applies.

Nothing was obviously done by Lavos.  In both cases, people important to the Entity's survival were endangered by Lavos and the Entity saved them by warping them through time.  The portals could have been inadvertently caused by Lavos, but they may also have been created by the Entity.

[Naz]

Zenning, you're thinking temporally, you need to think more dimensionally.

SIG'D!!! (On my GameFAQs account, that is.)

   I'd seen that quote before, didn't rememeber where it was from. Thought it fit though.

[Zenning]

The portals produced that sent the Guru's and Janus were most likely due to something to do with Lavos. Since Janus, Melchior and Belthasar were the first to be sent through the time portals, they counted as the '3'. When Gaspar was ported, he arrived in the area of the End of Time.

I forgot all about that rule, 'the 4th person through a Time Gate goes to the End of Time.'

Again, I am amazed with the Chrono series consistency.

You're saying that the Entity practically rewound time like a tape in a VCR...and then recorded over it...

That's what changing the past essentially means.  When an entity time travels, the existing timeline is discarded in the Darkness Beyond Time and a new timeline is created.

No, no, no...my point is, The Entity is not a physical entity like Crono & co, who can act in the third-dimension and whose actions would impact the timelines.

What you said is that, in the original timeline, Janus and the Gurus got killed. Then The Entity rewound time, and gave them the Gates the second time around.

You're saying The Entity is like an invisible hand that can do whatever it wants!!

I doubt the Entity did anything at all since It disturb things. I mean, if the entity did it, it'd be smarter to send Melchior to Belthasar so they could plan something out or All 3 Guru's in one area, and Janus to the EoT. You know..

I doubt Lavos would do anything of the sort, as it would threaten its survival.

Like I said before, Lavos WOULD NOT cause the gates INTENTIONALLY in a way that would cause it's downfall.

Here are my theories between Lavos and the Time Gates:

-The Time Gates were an uncontrollable side effect of LAvos's own radiation.

-Lavos purposefully threw them through the Time Gates, thinking that it wouldn't see them again, and that they wouldn't be able to harm him.

-Lavos purposefully threw them through the Time Gates, thinking it was sending them someplace THAN where they actually ended up. I don't see how The Entity could have a hand in this, unless it was here. Lavos opens the Time Gates to try and send those people, possibly to the Darkness Beyond Time, instead, The Entity somehow interferes, and our travelers are instead thrown to different time periods!

[Zaperking]

You do know that Lavos thinks as everyone being much weaker than him. I don't think he would kill them anyway, Schala would have saved them if she could, but in any time line, they were transported.

And by the way, there is an original time line still existing. Any time that Crono Time Travels, history is not fully re-written. The only changes are who Crono and co. meet.
But in the time line, if Crono goes back to 600AD, then only 1000AD+ is changed a bit. But we don't see any changes in 2300AD just because he went back to 600AD.

The past will remain the past. Anything after 12,000BC is changable. Anything prior is not.

@ Zenning
I don't think Lavos can open the DBT. It can't truely be accessed unless theres a distortion in time.

@Gray
You do remember that before CC came out, there was no idea of the DBT. Just wondering, were your ideas the same as they are now on this subject, or were different back then?

[Lord J Esq]

I think the in-game attribution of the Time Gates to the Entity is an artistic motif, one that clashes with some of the facts on the ground, such as the obvious fact that Lavos was the power behind at least the Ocean Palace gates.

What is so obvious about this fact?

I take it you disagree? Or are you simply chiding me to tighten up my technique?

In any case, the evidence is overwhelming:

1. Thematics
The whole scene is a Magus flashback, illustrating the symbolic essence of his beef with Lavos. Lavos had corrupted the Queen, who had in turn brought misery to his sister and ultimately was the one who "threw the switch" gating the Gurus and Janus himself forward in time. Only Lavos could be responsible for those gatings, or else the thematic message breaks down.

2. Drama
The gatings are an illustration of Lavos' power in the hands of Queen Zeal. Janus and the Gurus weren't going to be a part of the whole, sordid deal, and so they paid the price for it. Why Zeal gated them away rather than killing them outright is a question endemic to nefarious villains throughout history (James Bond, anyone?), and may never be solved. But her reasons aside, this scene is a demonstration of Lavos' power, and removing that identity confuses its dramatic impact.

3. No Contrary Evidence
Nothing in the scene indicates that any power other than that of Lavos is at work, and this scene is never revisited in the future.

4. No Heroes
I presume that if you disagree with the premise that Lavos did these Ocean Palace Gates, then you believe the Entity is responsible for them instead. The problem with that is that the Heroes, who presumably are the Entity's intended targets of the Time Gate travel, are entirely absent from this scene. To argue that the Entity is responsible for these gates is to assume that the Entity is in the business of just gating whomever the heck it durn pleases, which is an assumption without any evidence.

~~~
I'm still not convinced that Lavos didn't have anything to do even with the main gates that are directly attributed to the Entity in-game. But certainly, in the case of the Magus' Castle , Black Omen ascension, Ocean Palace gates, these are Lavos' entire doing, for the above reasons.

And, to emphasize what I said in my earlier post, I think it is important for people to recognize that trying to reconcile every literal, canonical fact in the game with every other literal, canonical fact...is a fool's errand. Where art is concerned, sometimes the facts just don't always fit together on the literal level of in-game reality. The attribution of the Time Gates to the Entity helps further the central theme of the game, but at some expense of literal consistency.

[GrayLensman]

I take it you disagree? Or are you simply chiding me to tighten up my technique?

In any case, the evidence is overwhelming:

1. Thematics
The whole scene is a Magus flashback, illustrating the symbolic essence of his beef with Lavos. Lavos had corrupted the Queen, who had in turn brought misery to his sister and ultimately was the one who "threw the switch" gating the Gurus and Janus himself forward in time. Only Lavos could be responsible for those gatings, or else the thematic message breaks down.

2. Drama
The gatings are an illustration of Lavos' power in the hands of Queen Zeal. Janus and the Gurus weren't going to be a part of the whole, sordid deal, and so they paid the price for it. Why Zeal gated them away rather than killing them outright is a question endemic to nefarious villains throughout history (James Bond, anyone?), and may never be solved. But her reasons aside, this scene is a demonstration of Lavos' power, and removing that identity confuses its dramatic impact.

3. No Contrary Evidence
Nothing in the scene indicates that any power other than that of Lavos is at work, and this scene is never revisited in the future.

4. No Heroes
I presume that if you disagree with the premise that Lavos did these Ocean Palace Gates, then you believe the Entity is responsible for them instead. The problem with that is that the Heroes, who presumably are the Entity's intended targets of the Time Gate travel, are entirely absent from this scene. To argue that the Entity is responsible for these gates is to assume that the Entity is in the business of just gating whomever the heck it durn pleases, which is an assumption without any evidence.

This is different than what I thought you meant.  You are suggesting that Lavos was the power behind the time portals in the Ocean Palace, but it was actually Queen Zeal who directed Lavos' energy to create the portals.

In this case, I agree that this theory is more artistically acceptable and is physically possible.  However, you shouldn't refer to a theory as a fact.

I'm still not convinced that Lavos didn't have anything to do even with the main gates that are directly attributed to the Entity in-game. But certainly, in the case of the Magus' Castle , Black Omen ascension, Ocean Palace gates, these are Lavos' entire doing, for the above reasons.

Although you make a good argument above, it is still possible that the Entity was solely responsible for every instance of time travel.

And by the way, there is an original time line still existing. Any time that Crono Time Travels, history is not fully re-written. The only changes are who Crono and co. meet.

But in the time line, if Crono goes back to 600AD, then only 1000AD+ is changed a bit. But we don't see any changes in 2300AD just because he went back to 600AD.
 
The past will remain the past. Anything after 12,000BC is changeable. Anything prior is not.

Crono may only cause minor changes to the past, but a new timeline is still created.  In the case of major time changes, such as the appearance of the Black Omen, all time periods are affected.  Crono caused changes in every time period he visited, even if there are no visible effects in other time periods.
 

@Gray
You do remember that before CC came out, there was no idea of the DBT. Just wondering, were your ideas the same as they are now on this subject, or were different back then?

I didn't play Chrono Trigger until after Chrono Cross was released.

No, no, no...my point is, The Entity is not a physical entity like Crono & co, who can act in the third-dimension and whose actions would impact the timelines.
 
What you said is that, in the original timeline, Janus and the Gurus got killed. Then The Entity rewound time, and gave them the Gates the second time around.
 
You're saying The Entity is like an invisible hand that can do whatever it wants!!

I think that the Entity is the planet and every living or non-living thing on it, in a physical and a supernatural sense.  The only thing not part of the Entity is Lavos, because it is an alien.  The time travelers are not separate beings, but the physical form of the Entity's attack on Lavos.  The Entity's consciousness transcends time, and parts of its physical body are also capable of time travel.  The Entity can change the timeline by sending part of its body through a Time Gate, which it appears to be able to create arbitrarily.

If the Entity was responsible for the time portals in the Ocean Palace, it was capable of seeing an event which it wanted to change and sending a time traveler through a Time Gate in order to create a new timeline.

[Lord J Esq]

In this case, I agree that this theory is more artistically acceptable and is physically possible.  However, you shouldn't refer to a theory as a fact.

I suppose "obvious fact" was an overreach on my part. But to call it merely a "theory" as you do is also incorrect. It is a straightforward artistic interpretation. It takes an awful lot of rationalization to argue that these Ocean Palace gates were the Entity's doing. To describe these two different interpretations as competing "theories" is to perform the same sort of injustice that exists in the competition between the theories of evolution and Intelligent Design. The former follows from the facts on the ground, while the latter is in the business of framing a few preferred facts to support an agenda, and placing the two on equal footing is simply incorrect. Likewise, it just makes all the best sense that Lavos created these gates, for the reasons I described above. To place their doing in the Entity's hands is very much an uphill battle, because you'd have to ignore or explain so many seemingly contradictory facts, and pursuing this road is certain to result in an artistic interpretation far more colorful than mine...which may have its own rewards, provided one does not delude oneself into mistaking artistic perception for literal truth.

[Zenning]

Dear GrayLensman,

...


LAVOS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE F.'ING TIME GATES.

During the Ocean Palace, Lavos is awakened, and Janus and the Gurus all get warped through time.

Then, Magus summons Lavos in 600AD, and this ends up opening ANOTHER Time Gate, warping our heroes to 65million BC, and Magus back to 12000BC.

After Lavos crashes in 65million BC, it leaves the Time Gate that leads to 12000BC and thus Zeal...IN THE VERY SAME CRATER IN WHICH IT LANDED!!!

THEN, in our FINAL BATTLE with Lavos, Lavos uses a timewarp technique that warps us through the different time periods, thus changing the background imagery, and the different techniques that Lavos uses.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SAY that there is definite cause-and-effect relationship between Lavos and the Time Gates?

What more evidence do you need than that?

Why do you hold onto this "The Entity Did It" theory? C'est ridiculement!

No, no, no...my point is, The Entity is not a physical entity like Crono & co, who can act in the third-dimension and whose actions would impact the timelines.
 
What you said is that, in the original timeline, Janus and the Gurus got killed. Then The Entity rewound time, and gave them the Gates the second time around.
 
You're saying The Entity is like an invisible hand that can do whatever it wants!!

I think that the Entity is the planet and every living or non-living thing on it, in a physical and a supernatural sense.  The only thing not part of the Entity is Lavos, because it is an alien.  The time travelers are not separate beings, but the physical form of the Entity's attack on Lavos.  The Entity's consciousness transcends time, and parts of its physical body are also capable of time travel.  The Entity can change the timeline by sending part of its body through a Time Gate, which it appears to be able to create arbitrarily.

If the Entity was responsible for the time portals in the Ocean Palace, it was capable of seeing an event which it wanted to change and sending a time traveler through a Time Gate in order to create a new timeline.

Too bad that, The Entity didn't have any other physcial bodies to work with to create those Time Gates in the Ocean Palace, other than Lavos, which The Entity can't control or work through.

Besides, if The Entity really DID create the Time Gates, it would've created them in far more convenient locations than it did.

The Entity: "Hmm...65 million BC...where should I put a gate? Ahh, Mystic Mountain! I'll put it a few feet off the ground! That should give them a little chuckle!"

...

It is clear that the Time Gates were created from Lavos's own radiaion, which it couldn't control. A poisonous snake, a poisonous spider, and poisonous frog can't control being poisonous, and neither could Lavos control being radioactive, and that lead to its own downfall.

...

IN THE VERY FIRST PLACE, Lucca just happened to have a matter transporter, and Marle just happened to have a pendant that could alter the machine to open a Time Gate, and that's because the pendant possessed a stone that was made by Lavos.

The two together had enough power to open and create a Time Gate, and were lead on their journey entirely by chance.

The Entity may be in Chrono Cross, but I don't see any instances of it in Chrono Trigger.

[V_Translanka]

I think GrayLensman makes an interesting point in saying that it's not Lavos, but in fact Zeal directing Lavos' energy. It makes far more sense than Lavos doing it itself for various reasons...

During the Ocean Palace, Lavos is awakened, and Janus and the Gurus all get warped through time.

What GrayLensman says covers that...and better I might add...

Then, Magus summons Lavos in 600AD, and this ends up opening ANOTHER Time Gate, warping our heroes to 65million BC, and Magus back to 12000BC.

But almost nothing can explain why the gate 1) is enormous and 2) defies the rules of time travel by sending four people in two different temporal directions. It was a malfunctioning summon. It was the Entity. It was Lavos. All three make as much sense as the others.

]After Lavos crashes in 65million BC, it leaves the Time Gate that leads to 12000BC and thus Zeal...IN THE VERY SAME CRATER IN WHICH IT LANDED!!!

That's a regular Entity Gate...And even if you believed that Lavos created that Gate, it would only be inadvertantly anyhow...

THEN, in our FINAL BATTLE with Lavos, Lavos uses a timewarp technique that warps us through the different time periods, thus changing the background imagery, and the different techniques that Lavos uses.

I still believe that those time warps still occur within Lavos' PD, but that's beside the point...I don't think it's impossible that Lavos can bend time...but that it just doesn't make a lot of sense for him to have used temporal powers to whisk away the Gurus & Janus...

What more evidence do you need than that?

Not much of that was evidence at all really...

Too bad that, The Entity didn't have any other physcial bodies to work with to create those Time Gates in the Ocean Palace, other than Lavos, which The Entity can't control or work through.

What are you talking about? The Entity needs a physical body to work through to see something happen? The Planet=The Entity...It doesn't need any more than itself...

Besides, if The Entity really DID create the Time Gates, it would've created them in far more convenient locations than it did.

The Entity: "Hmm...65 million BC...where should I put a gate? Ahh, Mystic Mountain! I'll put it a few feet off the ground! That should give them a little chuckle!"

It's been proposed that the Mystic Mountain gate was in fact created a longer time ago and that Kino came from it. Thus, I think a lil continental drift could account for the gate's appearance there w/o solid land under it.

It is clear that the Time Gates were created from Lavos's own radiaion, which it couldn't control. A poisonous snake, a poisonous spider, and poisonous frog can't control being poisonous, and neither could Lavos control being radioactive, and that lead to its own downfall.

Actually, it's clear through the 400 Year Reunion that Lavos is not responsible for the gates. That's where the whole idea of the Entity came from: Lavos not being responsible for the gates.

that's because the pendant possessed a stone that was made by Lavos.

Pendant=Dreamstone=From the Planet=The Entity=/=Lavos

The two together had enough power to open and create a Time Gate, and were lead on their journey entirely by chance.

Wait, now you're saying that the Telepod & the Pendant created the gates? No, it wasn't just chance because the gate wasn't there until the Entity created it.

The Entity may be in Chrono Cross, but I don't see any instances of it in Chrono Trigger.

The 400 Year Reunion...The dialogue of Lucca & Marle at end game...The end scenario's actual name "Our Planet's Dream...something something" (why can I never remember it's whole name?!?!). The Entity exists. And it's the Planet.

[Chrono'99]

Then, Magus summons Lavos in 600AD, and this ends up opening ANOTHER Time Gate, warping our heroes to 65million BC, and Magus back to 12000BC.

But almost nothing can explain why the gate 1) is enormous and 2) defies the rules of time travel by sending four people in two different temporal directions.

Maybe the four people got sent to the End of Time. Gaspar would then have send the party to the Prehistory and Magus to the Dark Ages while they were still unconscious.

[V_Translanka]

But Magus doesn't mention anything about the EoT (although I suppose he doesn't mention being unconcious either)...and Gaspar seems like he's only seeing Magus when you reintroduce him for the first time in years, not as if he had pushed Magus through another gate...Not to mention the Zeal pillar gate in the EoT didn't exist then...

[Zaperking]

Yeah, We acctually see in that cutscene where they arrive automatically. When Gaspar, arrived he either arrived like a few metres away from the EoT platform or acctually created it himself.