Lavos: Biological Weapon or Sentient Lifeform?

[GrayLensman]

Lord J esq:

I agree with many of your points, but I also disagree with a few.  Zeality can give his speech on why we do what we do, which you've probably already read.  I do believe that artistic interpretation of the Chrono Series is a worthwhile undertaking, which is somewhat lacking on this site.  The "scientific" analysis we undertake is meant to help us understand and appreciate the complex yet remarkably consistent events and concepts of the series.  I assure you that I have always conducted this exercise with sincerity and integrity.

You made a valid artistic interpretation in favor of your hypothesis.  I only stated an alternative hypothesis, which is not actually invalidated by any of the observable "facts" in the game.  None of the models or hypotheses on this site can meet the standards of a scientific theory, but in lay terms they are essentially theories.  Our hypotheses may be invalidated by conflicting evidence or logic, which is what I really mean when I refer to the scientific method.  An artistic interpretation is a matter of personal oppinion and cannot be proven or disproven.  If I stated that Crono's sacrifice symbolized the Crucifixion of Christ, it would be impossible to refute my analysis.  

My personal motive for all of this theorizing is to to come up with a self-consistent framework which is mostly consistent with the canon for the purpose of creating derivative works.  All too often I have read fanfiction containing glaring contradictions with the series and internal inconsistencies.  I never expected concepts like Time Bastard to be the game developers' intension or what is "actually" happening, but it is a useful tool for my understanding of the series.  If I were to create a fan work, I would apply the rules of Time Bastard to insure it did not contradict what you would expect to see happen in the Chrono series.

[Zenning]

That's...quite a moutful there, big guy.

I'm going to have to get back to this later O_o

[Lord J Esq]

I think we've come to an amicable understanding, then. And of course, out of sheer impishness, I would say that if logical consistency is what you're after, why not try it through the context of an artistic framework? Time Bastard theory, for instance, might do better as an artistic interpretation. Because, after all, if logical consistency is the goal, then the particular interpretations you make do not matter, so long as they are all consistent with one another. Pursuing logical consistency is a bit different than codifying objective truth. I personally would never use Time Bastard myself, but for as stubborn as I am in defending the purity of the scientific method, here at the Compendium (where my efforts have probably annoyed many people) and elsewhere in life, I likewise take great satisfaction in the sheer diversity of inspiration people can take from the same piece of art. That's not to say I won't argue with an interpretation I disagree with, like Time Bastard, but it'd be a productive contention...you know, useful dialectic. That stands in contrast with the contention I have with those who attempt to pass off Time Bastard (for example) as a legitimate piece of science. Calling it that confuses weaker-minded people into all sorts of delusional worldviews about the form and function of science.

If, for the sake of logical consistency, you have to hold that the Entity is responsible for the Ocean Palace time gates seen in Magus' flashback, then, really, the best way to support that premise is to work from the top down, using the canon to provide aesthetic evidence on its behalf. For instance, does Truce really consist of five or so buildings? No. That's a game limitation. There's a whole town there, probably with thousands of people. How can I prove that scientifically? I can't. But aesthetically, it makes perfect sense. Yah?

Right...anyhow, I think you get my point, and I get yours. =P

[SilentMartyr]

The Entity has plenty of reason to gate the guru's and Janus to thier respective timelines. Without the help of these people the group could have never progressed as far as they did in thier quest to erradicate Lavos. The Entity sent them to the exact times for multiple purposes.

Janus was sent to 600 so that he could harness his magical abilites with the mystics. It seems heavily coincidental that Janus was gated at the exact moment that Ozzie was in that clearing.

Belthasar was sent to 2300 most likely because he wasn't finished with Epoch. Being in that futuristic era most likely gave him the necessary supplies he needed to finish his machine.

Now for Gaspar and Melchior there has to be some assumptins made concerning the Entity. I believe that the Entity had some sort of plan laid  out before it started the events that began the adventure. So assuming this one can then come to these other conclusions.

Melchior was sent to 1000 A.D. so that he could eventually repair the Masamune. The Entity could have easily planned this out just from the way the gates were unveiled to the group.

Gaspar is then the odd man out and sent to the End of Time. I believe the amount of knowledge he aquired while making the Time Egg gives him a huge advantage in understading the End of Time and how it works. This knowledge may have granted him the fun duty of living in the EoT.

[Lord J Esq]

The Entity has plenty of reason to gate the guru's and Janus to thier respective timelines. Without the help of these people the group could have never progressed as far as they did in thier quest to erradicate Lavos. The Entity sent them to the exact times for multiple purposes.

Janus was sent to 600 so that he could harness his magical abilites with the mystics. It seems heavily coincidental that Janus was gated at the exact moment that Ozzie was in that clearing.

Belthasar was sent to 2300 most likely because he wasn't finished with Epoch. Being in that futuristic era most likely gave him the necessary supplies he needed to finish his machine.

Now for Gaspar and Melchior there has to be some assumptins made concerning the Entity. I believe that the Entity had some sort of plan laid  out before it started the events that began the adventure. So assuming this one can then come to these other conclusions.

Melchior was sent to 1000 A.D. so that he could eventually repair the Masamune. The Entity could have easily planned this out just from the way the gates were unveiled to the group.

Gaspar is then the odd man out and sent to the End of Time. I believe the amount of knowledge he aquired while making the Time Egg gives him a huge advantage in understading the End of Time and how it works. This knowledge may have granted him the fun duty of living in the EoT.

You say the Entity has "plenty of reason" to be responsible for the Janus/Guru gatings at the Ocean Palace, but your argument isn't logical. You begin by already presuming the central point you want to prove, and then go on to give a laundry list that fits the presumption. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that, in order for the Entity to have a reason for wanting to do these gatings, you have to know an awful lot about the nature of the Entity and its motives, in order to define such a reason at all. Yet our knowledge of the Entity in Chrono Trigger is extremely small, limited to a few lines in an optional scene and a couple more at the end of the game. Because an "Entity" is mentioned at all, we certainly can imagine that the developers were trying to get a message across, but there are only so many deductive conclusions to be made from the canon available. The rest has to be inferred or construed, and on what basis? For all we know, the Entity is a passive, symbolic creature. In what little is said concerning the Entity, it is said to be reliving its life--not acting to change the course of history. And so the evidence that the Entity directly imposes its will in such a way that influences the outcome of real events is very tenuous. It is strongly suggested by Robo and Lucca that the Entity created "the gates," but for all that sincerity, it just doesn't jive with the motifs of the rest of the game. It seems to me to be an artistic contradiction. There is a legitimate argument to be fought that the Entity created the main gates that link directly to the gallery at the End of Time, but as for the miscellaneous gates that occur throughout the game, it is extremely difficult to imagine the Entity having caused them: the Magus' Castle summoning, the Black Omen ascension, the Epoch, and the Ocean Palace gates. Maybe the Entity consciously willed brought the Ocean Palace gates into existence, for the purpose of gating Janus and the Gurus to key locations in history. But is that a reasonable conclusion? What are the Entity's motives for rearranging history? How is your thinking supported by the canon? You see, to get at the conclusion you are proposing, we have to start twisting and spinning that limited canon into more and more contorted positions. And, as I have been pointing out to GrayLensman, to me this smacks of an instance when artistic intent outranks logical consistency. Maybe from one point of view, the Entity is responsible for all the time gates in the game. But from the point of view of the plot itself, Lavos is the far more likely culprit, at least when it comes to the Ocean Palace gates. And because it's a piece of art rather than an objective reality, both of these...artistic intentions...can be operational at the same time. However, because they are contradictory, you have to be very prudent in the way you acknowledge this. If I were going to put it in my own words, I would say that the Entity did not create a single gate in the game, other than Lucca's red gate, but that the Entity may well have influenced the destination of some of these other gates. This accommodates the Entity's passive interest in reliving its past, while reserving for the central antagonist the ramifications of its raw temporal emanations. Etc., etc....

[SilentMartyr]

The Entity is trying to preserve itself, prevent its own death. The only way that the Entity can interfere with anything that occurs on the planet is by creating disturbances in time. You already admitted the Entity can create gates so that is out of the way. Logically if it has the ability to at least try and protect itself, it will.

You keep refering to this soley as artistic and that scentific theorizing is, for a lack of better term, foolish (please correct with a term you deem better). You obviously show knowledge of the scientific method and the implementations of its usage.

More on this later, time to go home!

[Lord J Esq]

You keep refering to this soley as artistic and that scentific theorizing is, for a lack of better term, foolish (please correct with a term you deem better). You obviously show knowledge of the scientific method and the implementations of its usage.

Aye, I didn't realize it until relatively recently, that scientific postulation is an incorrect approach to explaining Chrono series phenomena. Prior to that little epiphany, I had been making the same mistakes myself. But the itch was in the back of my mind, until I recognized that objective reality (and, thus, physical consistency) does not operate inside a piece of art. It's very exciting to me, in fact.

[Zenning]

Alright, returning to the topic of our original discussion, Lavos's sentience.

You may say that Lavos could not telepathically communicate with people, however...

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that Lavos's life force could be used as an energy source?

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that taking Lavos's life force would grant immortality?


After all, if you remember, she believed the Lavos's power would bring her immortality. She was afraid of death, after the passing of her husband, and thus desired immortality.

Your thoughts on my two questions?

[Lord J Esq]

Alright, returning to the topic of our original discussion, Lavos's sentience.

You may say that Lavos could not telepathically communicate with people, however...

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that Lavos's life force could be used as an energy source?

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that taking Lavos's life force would grant immortality?


After all, if you remember, she believed the Lavos's power would bring her immortality. She was afraid of death, after the passing of her husband, and thus desired immortality.

Your thoughts on my two questions?

To answer the second question first, we humans often tend to project our feelings onto neutral, external objects. Lavos' emanations may well have stirred Zeal's passions, at which she would have been susceptible to projecting her own desires onto Lavos' more neutral but generally destructive power. And, like the Triforce, perhaps Lavos' power really could be used in such a way...like a Magic Lamp. It doesn't matter how it works. The only thing that matters is that you know rubbing it will give you three wishes. It certainly seemed that, until Zeal went to far, the Kingdom of Zeal was accomplishing incredible (if horrible) things through Lavos. =P

To answer your first question, I would imagine that Lavos' emanations would be of an extraordinary magnitude. Someone in the hallway before the Hall of the Mammon Machine said that she could feel its power literally, and so we know that there was a physical awareness of Lavos' emanations. It doesn't take much to connect the dots and figure that exposure to this power would stir the mind.

In other words, I have yet to see a Lavos behavior that categorically excludes the possibility of its non-sentience. Such is the problem with artistic interpretation. =)

[Zenning]

Alright, returning to the topic of our original discussion, Lavos's sentience.

You may say that Lavos could not telepathically communicate with people, however...

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that Lavos's life force could be used as an energy source?

...how did Queen Zeal ever get the idea that taking Lavos's life force would grant immortality?


After all, if you remember, she believed the Lavos's power would bring her immortality. She was afraid of death, after the passing of her husband, and thus desired immortality.

Your thoughts on my two questions?

To answer the second question first, we humans often tend to project our feelings onto neutral, external objects. Lavos' emanations may well have stirred Zeal's passions, at which she would have been susceptible to projecting her own desires onto Lavos' more neutral but generally destructive power. And, like the Triforce, perhaps Lavos' power really could be used in such a way...like a Magic Lamp. It doesn't matter how it works. The only thing that matters is that you know rubbing it will give you three wishes. It certainly seemed that, until Zeal went to far, the Kingdom of Zeal was accomplishing incredible (if horrible) things through Lavos. =P

To answer your first question, I would imagine that Lavos' emanations would be of an extraordinary magnitude. Someone in the hallway before the Hall of the Mammon Machine said that she could feel its power literally, and so we know that there was a physical awareness of Lavos' emanations. It doesn't take much to connect the dots and figure that exposure to this power would stir the mind.

In other words, I have yet to see a Lavos behavior that categorically excludes the possibility of its non-sentience. Such is the problem with artistic interpretation. =)

Ahh good, see, you agree with me!

Many argue against Lavos being able to communicate telepathically.

[Lord J Esq]

Ahh good, see, you agree with me!

Many argue against Lavos being able to communicate telepathically.

Ah, no no. I wouldn't call it "telepathy" myself. No, not at all. That implies an advanced intelligence, and I hold that Lavos is not sentient, and therefore lacks an overarching intelligence. No, inasmuch as "telepathy" can be called a quality of a sentient creature, I would say that Lavos either possesses the non-sentient equivalent of telepathy, or no equivalent of any sort, and simply functions in terms of its power emanations.

[Zaperking]

The Frozen Flame is sentinel. Sometimes I think that Schala is the one who talks through it. She stares through the flame at the arbiter sometimes.

Either way, the Flame basically is the telepathic link between Lavos and an arbiter, since he probably isn't telepathic.

[Zenning]

The Frozen Flame is sentient. Sometimes I think that Schala is the one who talks through it. She stares through the flame at the arbiter sometimes.

Either way, the Flame basically is the telepathic link between Lavos and an arbiter, since he probably isn't telepathic.

Wait...

...the Frozen Flame is a shard of Lavos's shell, yes?

You're saying a shard of Lavos's shell is more intelligent than Lavos itself?

[AuraTwilight]

It's possible. My theory though, was that it was just Schala communicating through it. Either way, it could be a double-package. The Frozen Flame's radiation makes humans smarter, and the chakra energy of the humans could make the Frozen Flame sentient. O_o or something.

[Zaperking]

The FF might acctually be Lavos' brain or something >.>