Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?

[legaiaflame]

So, the Ruby Knife turns into the Masamune during the Mammon Machine incident. Supposedly, It was made from Dreamstone. But, is it ever stated directly that it was made from Dreamstone? All I remember is them talking about it being created from a red stone (shard of Lavos). Can someone bring up the text from that scene?

 I know you need Dreamstone to repair it... But, I think it was hinted at that it was a part of Lavos?

[Acacia Sgt]

Melchior himself states the sword is made of Dreamstone, when you bring him the broken pieces.

MELCHIOR: Hmmmm... It might be possible if we could get our hands on some Dreamstone, which the sword is made of.            

Bosch: If you can even now get the ore called Dreamstone that's its raw material...... I suppose so.

Dreamstone existed on the planet way before Lavos arrived. You might be confusing it with the Frozen Flame, which came from Lavos. Like Dreamstone, it is also red-colored and stone-like.

[chrono.source]

Melchior himself states the sword is made of Dreamstone, when you bring him the broken pieces.

MELCHIOR: Hmmmm... It might be possible if we could get our hands on some Dreamstone, which the sword is made of.            

Bosch: If you can even now get the ore called Dreamstone that's its raw material...... I suppose so.

Dreamstone existed on the planet way before Lavos arrived. You might be confusing it with the Frozen Flame, which came from Lavos. Like Dreamstone, it is also red-colored and stone-like.

Do you have anything to back up this statement? I don't recall anywhere factualizing Dreamstone's existence before Lavos.

[Acacia Sgt]

Do you have anything to back up this statement? I don't recall anywhere factualizing Dreamstone's existence before Lavos.

The very fact the game has you time travel to a moment before Lavos arrives to pick it up in the first place. Though if you want even more concrete proof...

OLD MAN: Dreamstone?... I've heard of it, of course. It's a prehistoric mineral... You might find it way back in the prehistoric era.

Old Man: Dreamstone......?   That sounds somewhat familiar. It's an ore from long before even the distant past...... Might you not be able to find it if you go perhaps to the Primeval era?

Dreamstone is simply a rare mineral native to the planet (or it could be found in other planets and stuff; but the point is that it's natural). While it can interact with Lavos's energy, that's no proof it came with it or has anything to do with it outside that.

[legaiaflame]

This is all that is specifically stated about the origins of the Red Knife when it is given to you. At least in the Ted Woolsey translation:

MASA: The ancient Red Rock has been
   passed down through the ages.
   From it, a magic pendant and a knife
   were made.

   We embody Melchior's dreams,
   sealed, within the knife...

MASA: Now hurry, if you plan to
   confront the Queen.
   We're counting on you!

Also anther interesting fact about the Red Rock:

[Young Man]
   The 3 Gurus made the Mammon
   Machine from the royal family's red
   rock.

   Melchior, who has studied much about
   Lavos, was in charge of the plans.
   But then he disappeared...


So it seems the Mammon machine was also made from this red rock. Also in Chrono Cross isn't Lavos, the mammon machine and Schala fused together. The Mammon Machine being a remnant of Lavos himself; a catalyst for his resurrection?

And if you remember in Chrono Cross primitive man first came in contact with a shard of Lavos. Could it have been passed down through the ages? Also, in Chrono Cross the Masamune's appearance is red and twisted with malice...Sort of like Lavos...

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

So I don't have a script in front of me at the moment, but...

I'm pretty sure when first arriving in 65 million BC (before Lavos' fall), when Crono and company ask about the Dreamstone, Ayla states that there is plenty of shiny red rock everywhere, referring to Dreamstone.

I assumed that this is the red rock that is referenced as being the source of the Masamune, the origin of the Mammon Machine, etc. Especially because, when writing the scenario of Chrono Trigger, the Frozen Flame didn't exist yet as a plot item. I do believe that Chrono Cross sort of retroactively hints that the red rock in Zeal - within the Mammon Machine - is the Frozen Flame.

I also think the two are somehow related, although entirely separate. I think the Dreamstone is moreso "of the planet" and thus is used to forge dreams into reality, ie the creation of Dream Creatures like Masa, Mune, and Doreen. It also clearly has energy conducting/producing properties and was crucial in the creation of the Mammon Machine. The Frozen Flame, meanwhile, is foreign and a planetary contaminant as a piece of Lavos, somewhat at odds with the planet. I think the Frozen Flame has some elemental ability to control and interact with the Dreamstone, and this is why the Mammon Machine (forged from Dreamstone) encases the Frozen Flame when used by Zeal.

Sort of my interpretation. Nothing formally canon, mind you.

[chrono.source]

Melchior himself states the sword is made of Dreamstone, when you bring him the broken pieces.

MELCHIOR: Hmmmm... It might be possible if we could get our hands on some Dreamstone, which the sword is made of.            

Bosch: If you can even now get the ore called Dreamstone that's its raw material...... I suppose so.

Dreamstone existed on the planet way before Lavos arrived. You might be confusing it with the Frozen Flame, which came from Lavos. Like Dreamstone, it is also red-colored and stone-like.

Do you have anything to back up this statement? I don't recall anywhere factualizing Dreamstone's existence before Lavos.

I want to edit my inquiry. When I meant "Before Lavos" I also meant before the Frozen Flame, as it is part of the Lavos, or in association with Lavos, therefore was present long ago, and I theorize, created Dreamstone.

[Acacia Sgt]

I want to edit my inquiry. When I meant "Before Lavos" I also meant before the Frozen Flame, as it is part of the Lavos, or in association with Lavos, therefore was present long ago, and I theorize, created Dreamstone.

Same difference. Dreamstone was present long before either of Lavos and the Frozen Flame arrived to the planet. Besides, those two arrived more or less around the same time. The time difference can't be more than seconds or minutes of difference.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I always assumed the Frozen Flame came AFTER Lavos arrived on earth, since it's described as a broken off piece of Lavos in Chrono Cross.

[EgyLynx]

That THINK really exits at CC? Oh my...
Sorry...

[Razig]

I'm pretty sure when first arriving in 65 million BC (before Lavos' fall), when Crono and company ask about the Dreamstone, Ayla states that there is plenty of shiny red rock everywhere, referring to Dreamstone.

Dreamstone was rare even in prehistoric times. When meeting Ayla for the first time, Marle or Lucca will mention needing Dreamstone...

Stone?
Plenty stones!
Here, there, at village.
You take plenty.

She's just referring to ordinary rocks at this point, trying to entice you into coming tot he party. During the celebration, she offers you the Dreamstone which is the symbol of her office, and specifically mentions that it's rare.

Crono, you look for red
rock?

Rare, red rock sign of power.
Ayla strongest in Ioka village.
So Ayla's rock!

You want, you challenge Ayla!
You win, then Ayla give to you.

[legaiaflame]

So, let's say the Mammon Machine is just made of Dreamstone. Then, how did Lavos resurrect in Chrono Cross, along with Schala and the Mammon Machine? Isn't it logical to think the Mammon Machine was a part of Lavos? Thus, enabling its resurrection into the Dream Devourer.

[Acacia Sgt]

So, let's say the Mammon Machine is just made of Dreamstone. Then, how did Lavos resurrect in Chrono Cross, along with Schala and the Mammon Machine? Isn't it logical to think the Mammon Machine was a part of Lavos? Thus, enabling its resurrection into the Dream Devourer.

It's not a supposition. The Mammon Machine is made of Dreamstone. The Mammon Machine didn't "resurrect". It was never part of Lavos, either. The Dream/Time Devourer came into being by the merging of Lavos and Schala. If the Machine played a part, it wasn't as part of the ending product.

The merging itself... it's still a bit of a mystery.

[legaiaflame]

So, let's say the Mammon Machine is just made of Dreamstone. Then, how did Lavos resurrect in Chrono Cross, along with Schala and the Mammon Machine? Isn't it logical to think the Mammon Machine was a part of Lavos? Thus, enabling its resurrection into the Dream Devourer.

It's not a supposition. The Mammon Machine is made of Dreamstone. The Mammon Machine didn't "resurrect". It was never part of Lavos, either. The Dream/Time Devourer came into being by the merging of Lavos and Schala. If the Machine played a part, it wasn't as part of the ending product.

The merging itself... it's still a bit of a mystery.

How could Lavos resurrect if Crono and team defeated him and without nothing to resurrect from? Schala supposedly fell into a time gate with the Mammon Machine only, right? So, this is where I'm confused:

If the Mammon Machine wasn't a part of Lavos and didn't have the Frozen Flame in it (we can't prove that it did); how did Lavos resurrect? Was it an "alternate timeline Lavos" that was drawn to Schala? It doesn't make any sense...

What I got from Chrono Cross was: before its defeat, Lavos drew the Frozen Flame and Chronopolis into the future as a safeguard. Then somehow, the Dragon God was able to absorb the Frozen Flame and cross dimensions? That still doesn't explain how Lavos was able to resurrect though...

[Acacia Sgt]

That's the thing. There's nothing that says or explains how Lavos was able to survive. About the Mammon Machine... well, Cross says it also got flung into the DBT with Schala; but then back in Trigger you find it in the Black Omen, where Crono and company destroyed it for good. So it couldn't have been sent with Schala. I tried to check the Japanese version of Cross if the Machine is mentioned as well; but I couldn't tell. If anyone knows Japanese, they can check here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LeLNSkv4CI&list=PL62F7A0DD08DD7AFF&index=75&t=2m35s

Not into the future. Lavos, from the DBT, sent Chronopolis and the Flame from 2400AD into Antiquity (somewhere between 12000BC and 9600BC) as a way to disrupt its own defeat. Somehow. The Dragon God didn't absorb the flame. In fact, Belthasar says Lavos absorbed the Dragon God. On the DBT. Anyway, both it and Dinopolis were brought from a different dimension by the Planet itself as a countermeasure to Lavos flinging Chronopolis into the past.