After 19 years I still don't understand how Lavos resurrected....

[legaiaflame]

Exact quotes from Lucca at the beach:

"As the palace collapsed around her, Princess Schala was sucked into a dimenstional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine."

"Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devouer of Time."

And later on Belthasar says that Lavos absorbed or integrated with the Dragon God, long ago in the distant past (still don't understand this)? If Lavos absorbed the Dragon God in the past, how could each individual dragon god and the Dragon God itself still exist in the present?

And during the Time Crash Lavos (when it was still alive?) pulled the Frozen Flame and Chronpolis to 10,000 B. C.; as a safeguard in the event it was defeated...But Chronopolis only exists on the new timeline, after Lavos is defeated. So, how could Lavos possibly do this?

So all I can take away from this is the Mammon Machine was the key to Lavos' revival. Was the machine a part of Lavos somehow? Did it contain the Frozen Flame? And for what purpose did Lavos pull the Frozen Flame and Chronoplis to the past for. How did this help its revival. The only thing that is stated is this "Lavos Mammon Machine" was combined with Schala...

[Acacia Sgt]

I think you may need to reread those threads Vehek linked in your previous thread:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6142.0
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6942.0

As it is. This:

And later on Belthasar says that Lavos absorbed or integrated with the Dragon God, long ago in the distant past (still don't understand this)? If Lavos absorbed the Dragon God in the past, how could each individual dragon god and the Dragon God itself still exist in the present?

And this:

"As the palace collapsed around her, Princess Schala was sucked into a dimenstional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine."

So all I can take away from this is the Mammon Machine was the key to Lavos' revival. Was the machine a part of Lavos somehow? Did it contain the Frozen Flame?

Are things that were added to the English script. They're not part of the original script so they could just be mistakes. It's hard to say since the whole Arbiter thing is also missing from the Japanese script but it's in the Ultimania Guide. So for now... don't take the English script fully at face-value. At least on aspects like these.

And during the Time Crash Lavos (when it was still alive?) pulled the Frozen Flame and Chronpolis to 10,000 B. C.; as a safeguard in the event it was defeated...

And for what purpose did Lavos pull the Frozen Flame and Chronoplis to the past for. How did this help its revival.

Well, the most accepted idea is that Chronopolis' mere prescence could change things enough to disrupt Crono and company's journey through time. How exactly? Hard to say. This is just conjecture; but perhaps it was banking that Chronopolis' prescence would do something like change history so much Crono and company might not be born, as if thinking that could work (man, imagine Lavos thinking temporal paradoxes are a thing when we know they don't). Or something like that. This is just conjecture from my part, I repeat.

Of course, we know that fails since Chronopolis' staff ain't stupid. Even despite deciding to create the El Nido archipielago, since that could create even more changes to the time line, they did their hardest to ensure FATE kept the time line contamination from drastically changing events as they know it.

[legaiaflame]

Lavos pulled Chronopolis back to change the timeline, but Fate kept it under control. That makes sense. Lavos' plan was prevented by Fates careful planning along with the mind control of its inhabitants and Crono and crew still defeated Lavos unhindered.

What I still don't understand though is how Lavos was actually resurrected into the Time Devouer?

[Vehek]

I haven't gone through everything in the recent threads, but remember, Richard Honeywood claimed to have consulted with Kato in clarifying some things for the English script. What's unclear is which parts that covers.
When I posted those translations, the only interview mentioning this I could find was the one from the FF Compendium (the one with the 2001 date on the interviews page), where he listed a few examples.

[legaiaflame]

So that's why Fate did what it did: controlling the inhabitants and keeping them from contaminating the timeline. In essence keeping them imprisoned amongst a string of islands, all so Crono and crew could defeat Lavos, uninterrupted?

[legaiaflame]

I just don't understand how Lavos could possibly come back? People have said he just opened a temporal shift/portal right as Crono defeated it. But, that doesn't make any sense and is a total cop out. Undermining everything that was done in the first game.

It would have been more plausible it the Frozen Flame evolved into a new Lavos, along with Schala but nowhere in the game is this mentioned. The Frozen Flame just disappears and nothing is seen or heard from it....

I'm just supposed to accept that Lavos just happens to be waiting in the same time vortex Schala fell into and was conveniently able to fuse with her? I don't buy it!

Did Kato write himself into a hole? Trying to give Richard Honeywood more details: Fusion with the Dragon God, Schala fused with the Lavos Mammon  Machine.....Shouldn't we be taking these two accounts as facts to explain Lavos' resurrection?

[Sheiken]

I just don't understand how Lavos could possibly come back? People have said he just opened a temporal shift/portal right as Crono defeated it. But, that doesn't make any sense and is a total cop out. Undermining everything that was done in the first game.

It would have been more plausible it the Frozen Flame evolved into a new Lavos, along with Schala but nowhere in the game is this mentioned. The Frozen Flame just disappears and nothing is seen or heard from it....

I'm just supposed to accept that Lavos just happens to be waiting in the same time vortex Schala fell into and was conveniently able to fuse with her? I don't buy it!

Did Kato write himself into a hole? Trying to give Richard Honeywood more details: Fusion with the Dragon God, Schala fused with the Lavos Mammon  Machine.....Shouldn't we be taking these two accounts as facts to explain Lavos' resurrection?

It had always been my understanding that when Lavos was defeated, his soul was banished to "The Darkness Beyond Time", an existence between dimensions where time does not flow.  This also happens to be where Schala was dragged to similar to how Gasper wound up in "The End of Time".

Lavos had then merged with Schala and fed off of her power to be born anew, and as Schala's conciousness faded as sorrow took over her mind, the two of them became the Time Devourer.  So at this point, Lavos was no longer Lavos as he was no longer a parasite that lived to feed off of worlds and reproduce, but a being of pure sorrow and hatred that would exist to devourer all of time and space until nothing was left.  Also saying he was "resurrected" seems inaccurate to me, as he only exists in the Darkness Beyond Time and therefore came to be outside of reality.

The real question is how the Dragon Gods and their combined form ties into the equation.  It has been a while, but following my current playthrough of Trigger, I will be playing Cross again shortly.  I would much rather wait until the entire plot is fresh in my head before breaking it down any further.

Hope this makes a bit more sense to you, and I will respond with my take on the Dragon Gods as soon as I reach that point in the game.

[NimmerStill]

The Darkness Beyond Time is a repository of timelines nullified by time travel, right? So it seems likely that the Lavos that went there and became the Time Devourer was the one from the original (Lavos Timeline) 2300 AD (or slightly before or after, but not before 1999 AD). That doesn't, however, explain how Schala went there, since she's not from any discarded timeline; the portal she fell through was just "special", I guess. It could work for the Dragon God though, maybe.

[legaiaflame]

That's what I mean, it still doesn't make any sense! Discarded timelines should have no affect on reality. If Lavos is in the Darkness Beyond Time, and it is such a place for discarded timelines, it shouldn't be able to re-emerge in reality, or be any kind of threat.

And Schala being there makes no sense either. At the destruction of Zeal she fell into a portal. Why would she end up with a defeated version of Lavos? That's why I though she fell in there with the Mammon Machine and fused with a new version of Lavos...

Sheiken is theorizing that Lavos' soul ended up there. Well, that would make much more sense if you understand what astral projection is and how we can do this when we dream. But, that would mean Lavos and Schala are both permanently dead. If Lavos is just a soul he should have no influence on the living world at all. And again, should have no affect on reality.

[EgyLynx]

Sheiken is theorizing that Lavos' soul ended up there. Well, that would make much more sense if you understand what astral projection is and how we can do this when we dream. But, that would mean Lavos and Schala are both permanently dead. If Lavos is just a soul he should have no influence on the living world at all. And again, should have no affect on reality.

Are makers even think that?... nice words...

[Sheiken]

That's what I mean, it still doesn't make any sense! Discarded timelines should have no affect on reality. If Lavos is in the Darkness Beyond Time, and it is such a place for discarded timelines, it shouldn't be able to re-emerge in reality, or be any kind of threat.

And Schala being there makes no sense either. At the destruction of Zeal she fell into a portal. Why would she end up with a defeated version of Lavos? That's why I though she fell in there with the Mammon Machine and fused with a new version of Lavos...

Sheiken is theorizing that Lavos' soul ended up there. Well, that would make much more sense if you understand what astral projection is and how we can do this when we dream. But, that would mean Lavos and Schala are both permanently dead. If Lavos is just a soul he should have no influence on the living world at all. And again, should have no affect on reality.

Schala being sent there would be the same as how Gasper went to the End of Time (implying that time is finished, and no longer flows).  The Darkness Beyond time and Schala's arrival should be of similar circumstances, where that just so happens to be where their portal sent them.  Alone and defeated, Schala felt nothing but pain and sorrow in this space.

Lavos being defeated and set to the DBT would indeed imply that it was a "spirit" that got sent there by natural means.  However since Schala was a living being that arrived via portal, Lavos' spirit merged with Schala and fed off of her pain and sorrow.  Over time, Schala lost herself to the Time Devourer that they both became and continued to evolve with Lavos until one day maturing and devouring all of existence.  So in a way, it was more Schala being possed by Lavos and transformed than Lavos simply resurrecting from nothing.  Had Schala not been sent there, the Time Devourer would not have become a thing.

Thats how I see it anyway.

[legaiaflame]

That makes much more sense now. But why would a defeated Lavos' soul go there? Is this a place where all souls go to? And if a physical being was sent there like Schala, it makes sense that she could in fact be possesed by a bing of pure malice and hatered.

Also, an object like the Time egg using worm holes or black holes, actually allows physical beings to actually go there. Meaning, other physical beings could possibly get possessed by a number of evil disembodied beings like Lavos....Who knows what else is lurking in there.

[Sheiken]

I believe the Darkness Beyond Time is where erased timelines go, which is why Lavos was sent there.  He was supposed to live on and destroy the world, but instead was defeated before that happened and his spirit had nowhere else to go due to his existence in a timeline that was erased.  Considering he was so powerful that he could even indirectly mess with space time however, it does not suprise me that he was able to use Schala and exist outside of time itself after his initial death.

Schala being sent there was just bad luck I believe.  Both her and Gasper really drew the short end of the stick with where they ended up lol.  It is possible that other things could lurk there, but the real question is what are the odds that another physical being ends up there by accident, and if there was ever anything else powerful enough to possess said being.  The power of Lavos is pretty much god tier when you think about it afterall.

[Acacia Sgt]

I think there was some involvement of the fact Lavos had a pocket dimension, which is where the final battle takes place; and collapsed upon its defeat.

Consider that during the battle Lavos is kinda distorting/manipulating time. Perhaps all that temporal interference helped in sending it to the EoT.