Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

[King Zeal]

I never claimed my sig to be true.  Nor did I say that you or anyone else used the word "offensive".  I meant my sig as a joke.  I even SAID so in my first post in this thread.  Obviously, though, people didn't like it, so I got rid of it.

Magic doesn't use Lavos energies. It is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic properties of the universe; there are innates, who can do it naturally, and regular humans, who require a power source. The royal family of Zeal, the Gurus, and a few others were innates, while the rest of Zeal depended on the Sun Stone at first, then the Mammon Machine.

If I remember correctly, EVERYONE needed inital exposure to Mammon energy at first.  So in other words, the energies used in magic were transferred to humans who were worthy of them from the Mammon Machine.  And where exactly did the Mammon Machine's original energy come from?  Lavos.  Therefore, unlocking magical abilities originally requires exposure to Lavos' energy at which point the person using it will be able to do so forever (making them Enlightened Ones).  People who weren't sensitive to Lavos' energies (taken from the Mammon machine) couldn't use magic at all and, so, were Earthbound Ones.

[ZeaLitY]

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=629

[Sentenal]

Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.

And this is impossible within our reality.  No matter how much science we learn, we will never be able to do this.  Yet it is "science" in the Chrono universe, it is very much possible there.  If you don't think its a big streach to think that people can use their minds to create Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Giant Frogs falling from the sky, that's your problem.

And not all magic comes from Lavos.

And Biz agrees with me!  This is a day of remmberance!

[King Zeal]

Okay.  I don't see how what's said in that topic rejects my explanation of magic.  We learn in Chrono Trigger that the people of Zeal are able to sustain their society and impart the ability of magic on people by exposing them to the energy of the Mammon machine.  This is how humans are able to use magic, but that does not account for Mystics or other beasts.  

Now, I'm not saying that magic is ENTIRELY made up of Lavos' power.  Insted, I'm asserting that the way people use magic is through physical and/or mental enhancement due to the exposure of an external energy source (a Sun Stone, Mammon energy, or Spekkio's power).  This changes the person to allow them to summon (one of) the four elements (the cornerstones of magic) through psychokinetic energy.  This is akin to the Hulk's comic book origin:  He's hit with Gamma radiation, and the radiation radically alters his DNA and allows him to turn big, green and ferocious.  He doesn't NEED to tap into gamma energy every time he uses his powers, but the change allows him to play with energies that he orignally wasn't able to.  

This pretty much goes hand-in-hand with what you said yourself:

Magic is fundamental, and these artifacts were merely an amplifier – in Zeal's case, perhaps granting immortality at the Mammon Machine's full power, and also allowing all the citizens to practice magic.

And this is impossible within our reality. No matter how much science we learn, we will never be able to do this. Yet it is "science" in the Chrono universe, it is very much possible there. If you don't think its a big streach to think that people can use their minds to create Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Giant Frogs falling from the sky, that's your problem.

That's because psychokinesis is an actually field of study in the real world.  No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.

[Sentenal]

1.) Spekkio didn't do anything but teach Magic.  He didn't expose Crono to anything.

2.) That's because [causality] is an actually field of study in the real world. No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.

I don't see why you keep trying.  Magic exists, and is possible, in the Chrono universe due to reasons within a fictional universe.  Belthasar can make his predictions due to reasons within a fictional universe.

[King Zeal]

1.) Spekkio didn't do anything but teach Magic.  He didn't expose Crono to anything.

How do you know that?  Spekkio's true abilities aren't known to anyone.

2.) That's because [causality] is an actually field of study in the real world. No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.

Science is pretty much causality as backed up by experimentation and physical evidence.  For example, causality is saying "if I let go of an apple, it will fall to ground".  However, this does not HAVE to be true if the conditions surrounding it are vague.  If I'm underwater, the apple will actually probably float when I let it go.  However, if I'm standing on the ground, and gravity is in place, and there are NO OTHER forces acting on the apple, science has shown that there is an almost certain probability that it will fall.  

I don't see why you keep trying.  Magic exists, and is possible, in the Chrono universe due to reasons within a fictional universe.  Belthasar can make his predictions due to reasons within a fictional universe.

There's nothing about "magic" in the Chrono universe that cannot be accepted if we introduce a simple alien concept that differentiates it from the real world.  Those alien concepts being Lavos' energy and Dreamstone.  Neither exists in the real world, but, as they're introduced in the Chrono universe, their concepts allow for the bending of a limited number of rules in reality.  Belthasar's plan, however, defies even the rules that the story provides.  ZeaLity mentioned his "five factors" of why he believes Bel's plan could work, while I don't think those factors are enough.

[Sentenal]

How do you know that? Spekkio's true abilities aren't known to anyone.

Answer: What does the game say after Spekkio "gives" a character magic?  This:  "Crono learns Magic", or "Lucca learns Magic".  Notice the word "learn" in there.  He teachs magic.

Science is pretty much causality as backed up by experimentation and physical evidence. For example, causality is saying "if I let go of an apple, it will fall to ground". However, this does not HAVE to be true if the conditions surrounding it are vague. If I'm underwater, the apple will actually probably float when I let it go. However, if I'm standing on the ground, and gravity is in place, and there are NO OTHER forces acting on the apple, science has shown that there is an almost certain probability that it will fall.

This brings up the problem of decution, but i'll not go there.  What I was refering to is ideas of causality as it applies to time travel.  Such as the grandfather paradox.

There's nothing about "magic" in the Chrono universe that cannot be accepted if we introduce a simple alien concept that differentiates it from the real world. Those alien concepts being Lavos' energy and Dreamstone. Neither exists in the real world, but, as they're introduced in the Chrono universe, their concepts allow for the bending of a limited number of rules in reality. Belthasar's plan, however, defies even the rules that the story provides. ZeaLity mentioned his "five factors" of why he believes Bel's plan could work, while I don't think those factors are enough.

Do you not see that you accept magic due to a fictional attribute, yet discard the other due to a fictional attribute?  Such as the ablity to time travel, and having the majority of history that he wanted to alter already having taken place, and plenty of data on all entities envolved to predict how they will react to a certain situation.

[King Zeal]

Answer: What does the game say after Spekkio "gives" a character magic?  This:  "Crono learns Magic", or "Lucca learns Magic".  Notice the word "learn" in there.  He teachs magic.

We don't know what Spekkio DID to teach them.  For all we know, Spekkio has psychic powers and taught them that way.  

This brings up the problem of decution, but i'll not go there.  What I was refering to is ideas of causality as it applies to time travel.  Such as the grandfather paradox.

And that was my point to begin with.  Chrono Cross' stance on time travel is that cause and effect are NOT set.  You can change either one of them at any given time and have widely different results.  In Chronopolis, we're even told that when FATE tried to gain information about Lavos by looking at alternate timelines (alternate patterns of cause and effect), the information was "volatile".  Meaning that it was radically different each time.  

Do you not see that you accept magic due to a fictional attribute, yet discard the other due to a fictional attribute?  Such as the ablity to time travel, and having the majority of history that he wanted to alter already having taken place, and plenty of data on all entities envolved to predict how they will react to a certain situation.

Time travel is not proven to be impossible.  However, Chrono Cross takes the position that time travel is actually dimension-hopping.  When you travel back in time and change something, you're actually in an entirely new dimension/reality/timeline.  In this sense, you're not really changing the past, but instead changing a reality with similar conditions to the past.  This, actually, is what most time travel scholars consider to be the most likely element of time travel.  The only problem is that we can't really prove that alternate dimensions exist--much less that you can travel to them.  

That's why I can accept it, but not Belthasar's plan.

[Sentenal]

We don't know what Spekkio DID to teach them. For all we know, Spekkio has psychic powers and taught them that way.

Yeah, that seems likely...

Time travel is not proven to be impossible.

Time Travel has not been proven to be possible either.

However, Chrono Cross takes the position that time travel is actually dimension-hopping.

What?  No, your wrong.  Chrono Cross doesn't say that changing the past creates an entirely new dimension!  Dimensional creations are special cases, there are only 3 (4 if you count RD) dimensions at the time of CC:  Home, Another, and Reptite.  Miguel said as much that when you change the past, the future isn't split.  He said that the "old" future is sent to the DBT, and a new one is created.

That's why I can accept it, but not Belthasar's plan.

Not his plan, even though its explicitly stated to be?  He is the Guru of Reason, and that implies emense wisdom.  He has plenty of data to look back over time, and see how the entities involved reacted to situations.  He had plenty of data to know that the Planet didn't like humans as much as it did Reptites.  The Reptite already existed, so he could have known about it.  And I don't see why the possiblity of Belthasar using time travel to alter his work in progess has been thrown out by you.  If his plan intially screws up badly, he merely has to time travel AGAIN and undo his change.

[Zaperking]

I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.

[Sentenal]

Zaper, since when is Kid an authority on temporal mechianics?

[GrayLensman]

Okay.  I don't see how what's said in that topic rejects my explanation of magic.  We learn in Chrono Trigger that the people of Zeal are able to sustain their society and impart the ability of magic on people by exposing them to the energy of the Mammon machine.  This is how humans are able to use magic, but that does not account for Mystics or other beasts.

• Magic cannot be used by anything which predates Lavos's arrival in 65 million BC.
• The Enlightened Ones of Zeal are given powers by the Sun Stone and later the Mammon Machine.
• After the fall of Zeal, the Enlightened Ones suddenly lost their abilities, but the Zealian elite (Janus, Zeal, Schala, Dalton and the Gurus) did not.
• Mystics and monsters in all time periods following 65 million BC can use Magic and related abilities although they have not had any direct contact with the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine.
• Spekkio is able to impart the time travelers with magical abilities, except for Ayla, because she originated before Magic was invented, and Robo, because he is non-living.
• Magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos's arrival and in 2400 AD when Lavos is dead.[/list:u]
  
  We can conclude that:
  
  
  • Magic is an inherent, natural ability of numerous living things which are born after the arrival of Lavos, and is likely a genetic trait which arose due to Lavos's genetic manipulation of all life on earth.
  • Although the origin of magic is tied to Lavos, the use of magic is not dependant on Lavos or its energy because magic can be used in areas outside of Lavos's influence, such as 65 million BC, the End of Time and 2400 AD after Lavos's defeat.
  • In 12000 BC, the Enlightened Ones are granted Magic abilities as long as they are exposed to the energy of the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine, whereas the Earthbound Ones are not.  This suggests that the Enlightened Ones have a limited version of the "magic gene" which allows them to utilize an outside source of magical energy.
    
    
  • A small number of Zealians have powers which are independent of the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine.  The abilities of the Mystics, monsters, and the time travelers are also independent of an outside energy source.  This suggests that they have a stronger version of the "magic gene".
  • Spekkio could only awaken or unlock existing latent magical ability in the time travelers, and could not grant magical ability where not already exists.  We know this because Spekkio could not grant magic to Ayla, who was born before the arrival of Lavos.  Spekkio also could not give Robo magic, because machines have different abilities than living things.[/list:u]

[Kazuki]

I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.

I don't think that quote meant anything besides her devotion to finding Serge.

[cupn00dles]

I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.

I don't think that quote meant anything besides her devotion to finding Serge.

agreed

[King Zeal]

Yeah, that seems likely...

But we don't know.

Time Travel has not been proven to be possible either.

Evolution isn't completely proven, either.  But, there are theories based on physical evidence which support it.  Similarly, Einstein himself had theories on time travel.

What?  No, your wrong.  Chrono Cross doesn't say that changing the past creates an entirely new dimension!  Dimensional creations are special cases, there are only 3 (4 if you count RD) dimensions at the time of CC:  Home, Another, and Reptite.  Miguel said as much that when you change the past, the future isn't split.  He said that the "old" future is sent to the DBT, and a new one is created.

Exactly.  So, in other words, you're in a NEW timeline while the old one is sent to the Tesseract.  I never said anything about what HAPPENS to the old dimension after the new one is created.  But, nonetheless, any decision (or change) in time results in one of the two being "replaced", thus created a "new" timeline.

Not his plan, even though its explicitly stated to be?  He is the Guru of Reason, and that implies emense wisdom.

Yes, but again, reason does not work in the Chrono Cross universe in regards to time travel.  Chrono Cross's entire position on time is that it's unpredictable, fluid, and "volatile".  And that completely contradicts that "reason" can suddenly map it out entirely.

He has plenty of data to look as it did Reptites.  The Reptite already existed, so he could have known about it.

Yes, but Dinopolis didn't.  Nor did a universe where Lavos never fell.  Basically, that time should have already been in the Tesseract waiting for deletion, along with billions upon billions of others.

And I don't see why the possiblity of Belthasar using time travel to alter his work in progess has beenback over time, and see how the entities involved reacted to situations.  He had plenty of data to know that the Planet didn't like humans as much  thrown out by you.  If his plan intially screws up badly, he merely has to time travel AGAIN and undo his change.

 The reason I don't like this theory is because there are too many "what ifs" that go along with it.  If he had the ability to travel in time and "experiment" whenever he wanted, why didn't he simply enlist the Chrono Team (or even Magus, who was DESPERATELY looking for his sister) for help?  Why make a complex scheme to do everything when he could simply achieve the same goal with a more hands-on approach?  Better yet, why not simply go back to 12,000 AD and stop Schala from disappearing in the first place?

Also, there'd be no way he could "reboot" or retry his experiment if it failed.  For the "plan" to work, he'd have to do it all in one go.  After he left 2300 AD, with Another World already created, there'd be no original time to go back to in order to try it over again.

To GreyLensman.

I agree with  those theories.  When I said "does not account" for, I simply meant that they were the exceptions to the rule.