Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

[Zaperking]

Well im a believer in game evidance. If a character says something is true, then it's true because it is stated. I'm not one of you fanfiction readers who reads Chrono fanfiction and then get's my own ideas that don't work on the basis of game evidance. In other words, fanfiction to me = rubbish , but some are well written.


@ Gray
.... Robo isn't non-living... He's non organic....
And where does it say that the Zealians magic derived of the Sun stone? I can't remember any of that. All I remember is that Zeal was powered by the Sun stone (To make it float).

Also on Dalton, does he really not lose his magic? All we see him do is shoot fire at heros (it could just be a gun or a bomb cuz since when can a fire bolt be deflected?) and the Golem Boss may not have anything to do with Dalton since it came out by itself.

"and the time travelers are also independent of an outside energy source. This suggests that they have a stronger version of the "magic gene"
Why do they need to have a magic gene? All Spekkio did was teach them the proper way, unlike the Zealians who simply channaled Lavos' energy. Besides the point that a few people believe that the time travellers do not have true magic, which is Shadow. In other words, from Shadow magic we get lightning, water/ice and fire when its split up. So in other words, Crono and co. except Ayla, Robo and Magus do not have multi-tasking magic.

Also about Spekkio, wasn't it just Gaspar who thought that they had a good heart so he told them to enter Spekkio's room so he could teach them because they had the will etc.

[ZeaLitY]

A Zealian says that he no longer needs the tired energies of the planet. The Japanese version is clearer on this, stating that the planet's elemental energy is being dropped in favor of Lavos's emanations.

[Zaperking]

Elemental eh.... Elements.... CC >.> Wait, we already have an elemental place in Zeal... But it was sealed...
Also, if we're going to start playing the translation game, then we might aswell ditch all our current theories and start learning japanese and then make new theories from whats stated in the japanese version of CT and CC.

[Sentenal]

Evolution isn't completely proven, either. But, there are theories based on physical evidence which support it. Similarly, Einstein himself had theories on time travel.

Please, don't get me started on Evolution...

Yes, but again, reason does not work in the Chrono Cross universe in regards to time travel. Chrono Cross's entire position on time is that it's unpredictable, fluid, and "volatile". And that completely contradicts that "reason" can suddenly map it out entirely.

Incorrect.  The point of Chrono Cross, and Trigger, is that time is changable.  Not unpredictable.  The fact that its series canon that it is Belthasar's plan disproves the notion of time being unpredictable.  The theme is people are free to change their future.

Yes, but Dinopolis didn't. Nor did a universe where Lavos never fell. Basically, that time should have already been in the Tesseract waiting for deletion, along with billions upon billions of others.

Incorrect.  Although we don't understand the means and whys of dimensional creation, we do know that the Reptite dimension was created before Lavos crashed.  So that dimension was even in existance during CT.  The Reptite Dimension was there all along.  Remmber, dimensional creations are special cases that defy the normal rules of timeline creation.

The reason I don't like this theory is because there are too many "what ifs" that go along with it. If he had the ability to travel in time and "experiment" whenever he wanted, why didn't he simply enlist the Chrono Team (or even Magus, who was DESPERATELY looking for his sister) for help? Why make a complex scheme to do everything when he could simply achieve the same goal with a more hands-on approach? Better yet, why not simply go back to 12,000 AD and stop Schala from disappearing in the first place?

1-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge.  If he simply wanted to kill the TD, he probably would have, but he did.
2-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge.  Plus, hes an old man!
3-We have several answers.  One, this would have not stopped the Time Devourer from being created, since Schala had already been transported to the DBT to merge with Lavos.  Two, how would he have been able to?  Hes an old man.  Three, the Time Bastard theory makes this impossible.  When the original Schala was transported to the DBT, the second version of Schala should be removed at the time the original one is removed.  Read up on the Time Bastard theory for proof and arguements on its behalf, I don't wish to discuss it here.

Also, there'd be no way he could "reboot" or retry his experiment if it failed. For the "plan" to work, he'd have to do it all in one go. After he left 2300 AD, with Another World already created, there'd be no original time to go back to in order to try it over again.

...  How?  He could easily retry his experiments.  Another World isn't the one thats created, Home is the false world.  Another is the original one.

[King Zeal]

Please, don't get me started on Evolution...

I didn't plan to.

Incorrect.  The point of Chrono Cross, and Trigger, is that time is changable.  Not unpredictable.  The fact that its series canon that it is Belthasar's plan disproves the notion of time being unpredictable.  The theme is people are free to change their future.

And the fact that ANYONE or ANYTHING can change the future somehow does NOT make time unpredictable?

Incorrect.  Although we don't understand the means and whys of dimensional creation, we do know that the Reptite dimension was created before Lavos crashed.  So that dimension was even in existance during CT.  The Reptite Dimension was there all along.  Remmber, dimensional creations are special cases that defy the normal rules of timeline creation.

Thus my problem with the Dinopolis dimension.  We don't know where it came from, how it was created, or for what reason it survived being sent to the Darkness of Time since Lavos fell to Earth.  By all rights, it should have been sent to the Tesseract.  But, it wasn't for reasons we're never given.  The "rules" of timeline creation (as you put it) were broken for this exception in order to make the story fit.  And that is my precise gripe.

1-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge.  If he simply wanted to kill the TD, he probably would have, but he did.

The Arbiter of Time's entire purpose was to, in fact, destroy the Time Devourer and free Schala by wielding the Chrono Cross.  Serge himself wasn't special.  Anyone could have been an Arbiter if they fit certain conditions.

2-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge.  Plus, hes an old man!

I didn't say he should fight himself.  Just that he could have been more active in the whole deal.

3-We have several answers.  One, this would have not stopped the Time Devourer from being created, since Schala had already been transported to the DBT to merge with Lavos.  Two, how would he have been able to?  Hes an old man.  Three, the Time Bastard theory makes this impossible.  When the original Schala was transported to the DBT, the second version of Schala should be removed at the time the original one is removed.  Read up on the Time Bastard theory for proof and arguements on its behalf, I don't wish to discuss it here.

I'll have to read it later.  But for now, let me address the theory that the Tesseract is somehow an exception to time change.  If it were, Schala wouldn't have been able to be sucked into it in the first place.  Again, time is nothing but cause and effect.  If the dimension were truly timeless, than Schala should have been there the whole time and the "ticking clock" element of the Time Devourer's slow destruction of all reality wouldn't have been necessary.

...  How?  He could easily retry his experiments.  Another World isn't the one thats created, Home is the false world.  Another is the original one.

The Time Crash creates Another World.  It didn't exist prior to that.  The Time Crash was caused by Belthasar--hence, he created Another World.  Kid later creates Home World by saving Serge's life.

[Sentenal]

Thus my problem with the Dinopolis dimension. We don't know where it came from, how it was created, or for what reason it survived being sent to the Darkness of Time since Lavos fell to Earth. By all rights, it should have been sent to the Tesseract. But, it wasn't for reasons we're never given. The "rules" of timeline creation (as you put it) were broken for this exception in order to make the story fit. And that is my precise gripe.

I agree with you that it should have been sent to the DBT.  Dimensional creation bugs me, and alot of other people here.  It seems to be a sort of Time Error, but beyond that, it confuses me.  But its still part of the story, and must be accepted.

The Arbiter of Time's entire purpose was to, in fact, destroy the Time Devourer and free Schala by wielding the Chrono Cross. Serge himself wasn't special. Anyone could have been an Arbiter if they fit certain conditions.

Actaully, one being the Arbiter of the Flame* simply allows one contact with the Frozen Flame.  Serge wasn't special until he was granted Arbiter status.  He was also special because of his realtionship to Schala.

The Time Crash creates Another World. It didn't exist prior to that. The Time Crash was caused by Belthasar--hence, he created Another World. Kid later creates Home World by saving Serge's life.

He could have gone back and prevented the Time Crash...

[cupn00dles]

It could possibly be explained like this: The reason cuz the Dinopolis dimension didn't go to the Tesseract, imho, is cuz the Tesseract is only home to "erased" timelines from a same dimension, though it feels pretty inconsistent since the definitions of dimensions and timelines look pretty similar in some ways and pretty different in others. Now, Dinopolis comes from another dimension with its own timeline(s) and prolly it's own Tesseract, which would be free of any Time Devourer for if Lavos didn't fall on earth Schala never even came to existence, so the fusion to create the TD never happened there. As i said it feels really inconsistent, this thing about many dimensions with many internal timelines, i mean... Any more idea about it?

[King Zeal]

I agree with you that it should have been sent to the DBT.  Dimensional creation bugs me, and alot of other people here.  It seems to be a sort of Time Error, but beyond that, it confuses me.  But its still part of the story, and must be accepted.

Agreed . . . with reservations.

Actaully, one being the Arbiter of the Flame* simply allows one contact with the Frozen Flame.  Serge wasn't special until he was granted Arbiter status.  He was also special because of his realtionship to Schala.

Well, his "specialness" was a Catch-22.  He was special because he was the Arbiter.  He was the Arbiter because he was special.  Chicken.  Egg.

He could have gone back and prevented the Time Crash...

No, because, once he set FATE in motion, he in was the Back to the Future Part 2 loop.  If he goes back in time and winds up in Another World, then the timeline in which the Time Crash actually happened is gone.  Going back to 2300 AD or later will now be Another World's future instead.

It could possibly be explained like this: The reason cuz the Dinopolis dimension didn't go to the Tesseract, imho, is cuz the Tesseract is only home to "erased" timelines from a same dimension, though it feels pretty inconsistent since the definitions of dimensions and timelines look pretty similar in some ways and pretty different in others. Now, Dinopolis comes from another dimension with its own timeline(s) and prolly it's own Tesseract, which would be free of any Time Devourer for if Lavos didn't fall on earth Schala never even came to existence, so the fusion to create the TD never happened there. As i said it feels really inconsistent, this thing about many dimensions with many internal timelines, i mean... Any more idea about it?

Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract.  At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.

[Sentenal]

No, because, once he set FATE in motion, he in was the Back to the Future Part 2 loop. If he goes back in time and winds up in Another World, then the timeline in which the Time Crash actually happened is gone. Going back to 2300 AD or later will now be Another World's future instead.

It would be more or less the same.

[King Zeal]

Well, that was FATE's ambition.  But obviously, FATE ran into difficulties.

Plus, once again, the nature of time travel tells us that anything could have changed at anytime.

[Sentenal]

Really?  600ad didn't radically change when Crono when to the Prehistoric era and changed things.  CT shows that time flow isn't as irratic as you think.

[Zaperking]

That's very true. 600AD and other timelines seem to go on by themselves as if they're not even linked to the past or future anymore.

[cupn00dles]

Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract.  At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.

Yeah, i thought that too... but now i'm not so sure O_o cuz u see, besides that crappy theory i just mentioned there's one more thing that's bugging me now that i thaught of it... if every dimension had the same tesseract, then every dimension would be in danger by the existance of the TD, and the TD would be not only a time devourer but a dimension devourer too... and, kinda, the Dragon God, which was the Reptites counterpart for humanity's FATE only got in contact with the TD when it was divided into the 6 lesser dragons, by the power of the frozen flame used by fate.. What i'm trying to say is: if there was only one Tesseract that would fit every dimension couldn't the so powerful dragon god have accounted its existence in its own dimension and tryed to destroy it? i mean, belthasaar found out about the TD, i think the dragon god could possibly find out about it pretty easier than belthasaar did...

And another thought: if there was only one DBT, there could be many TD inside there, not to say other Lavos-like creatures or even more powerful and almighty beings that were "eliminated" before even coming to exist... The so pure possibility subject that is seen in CC...

After all the idea that there is one Tesseract per dimension feels more logic o_O at least to me XD and at least for now o.o

[King Zeal]

Really?  600ad didn't radically change when Crono when to the Prehistoric era and changed things.  CT shows that time flow isn't as irratic as you think.

But, he really DIDN'T change anything in the Prehistoric era in Chrono Trigger.  Really, he was just sort of in the background as history played itself out.  And anyway, that's Chrono Trigger -- which takes far less strides to justify temporal mechanics.

[King Zeal]

Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract.  At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.

Yeah, i thought that too... but now i'm not so sure O_o cuz u see, besides that crappy theory i just mentioned there's one more thing that's bugging me now that i thaught of it... if every dimension had the same tesseract, then every dimension would be in danger by the existance of the TD, and the TD would be not only a time devourer but a dimension devourer too...

Well, yeah, that was actually the point.

and, kinda, the Dragon God, which was the Reptites counterpart for humanity's FATE only got in contact with the TD when it was divided into the 6 lesser dragons, by the power of the frozen flame used by fate.. What i'm trying to say is: if there was only one Tesseract that would fit every dimension couldn't the so powerful dragon god have accounted its existence in its own dimension and tryed to destroy it? i mean, belthasaar found out about the TD, i think the dragon god could possibly find out about it pretty easier than belthasaar did...

And another thought: if there was only one DBT, there could be many TD inside there, not to say other Lavos-like creatures or even more powerful and almighty beings that were "eliminated" before even coming to exist... The so pure possibility subject that is seen in CC...

After all the idea that there is one Tesseract per dimension feels more logic o_O at least to me XD and at least for now o.o

And now you can see why I have issues with Belthasar's plan, the existence of the Dinopolis dimension and all of that.  It's hard for me to believe that so many infinite variables were so easily controlled.