Author Topic: Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?  (Read 25815 times)

Exodus

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 506
  • How do we know we exist?
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2005, 05:33:21 pm »
The way I'd say it works its effects begin immediately, albeit somewhat slowly.

That way, she still appears wounded, but it's already turned back the clocks.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2005, 06:21:37 pm »
Or the pendant could screw with people's memories O_o

Zenning

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2005, 01:15:00 am »
What in Heavens...?

Kid was never killed.

When escaping Viper Manor, before jumping off the rooftop terrace, Lynx throws a poisoned sword into her, but she doesn't die. She lives, but is poisoned, and someone gives her the antidote; either Serge or Norris.

As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.

Pendant rewinding time = hooky garbage!

Lynx still had a use for Kid and thus preserved her life. He simply needed to incapacitate her before he could brainwash her.

...

Kid certainly took a lot of abuse...

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2005, 01:43:49 am »
Quote
As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.


Negative.  She died.  And the pendant saved her.  Thats why she doesn't remmber Serge stabbing her.

Zenning

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2005, 01:59:01 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote
As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.


Negative.  She died.  And the pendant saved her.  Thats why she doesn't remmber Serge stabbing her.

OH COME ON.

That's a much more absurb explanation than saying that Kid survived and Lynx brain washed her. THAT is why Kid didn't remember being stabbed!

For one thing, your explanation is far more complex.

For another thing, we see no other possible instances of it elsewhere in the plot.

For a third thing, how could a pendant by itself do a time rewind?

I just don't see it being probable.

Dark Saint

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • http://allrpg.com
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2005, 02:44:25 am »
Quote
Originally posted by AuraTwilight

The Planet

I remember coming to this very conclusion at one point, but that would mean that the Earth can create Time Gates at will, an ability which would only complicate things further if Earth had it - mostly because of the contradictions and inconsistencies that it would set forth.

Quote
Twenty years is a lot of time to conquer a passive country that could barely fight off a bunch of blue midgets.

Aye, blue midgets indeed - with a sorcerer as their leader. But nay, twenty years is far too short a time for what seemed to be one of the weakest and less militarized village to overthrow/conquer the region's strongest military power.

Personally, I've always said that their apparent, out of the blue discovery of powder was probably what did the trick, but alas! the slackers never gave as much as a hint about the whole thing.

Quote
I think I remember reading that the Amulet's power doesn't kick in until after she actually dies, like Tsukasa's pseudo-immortality in .hack//sign.

I remember reading that the Amulet's power is supposed to keep her from dying, and out of life-threatening situations.

Quote

This one still puzzles me a bit. Either 1) FATE didn't have full control of Lynx yet and he was absolutely bonkers, or 2) It was a subconscious program Belthasar put in to make sure Project Kid runs smoothly. Who knows?

Eh, about the first, it's too speculative and convenient, and besides, it's made more apparent, and it's much more reasonable, that Lynx equaled FATE from the get-go.

The second doen't fit in simply because, as we're told, all Lucca did was plant a bug in FATE's system to prevent it from reaching the Frozen Flame and whatnot. Programming FATE to create Lynx to idiotically kill Serge is plain absurd to even consider.

Quote

The Reptite dimensions DOES exist, so where do you get off saying it doesn't? Also, the Planet should roughly be as powerful as Lavos, so it should be able to do the same trick just fine.

Nay, it doesn't exist, for it doesn't branch off or originate from the original timeline - or rather, the "original" one as far as we know.

If Earth could alternately choose the future it preferred for itself, then why the hell would it allow the Human's future to prosper in any possible dimension or future? Or for that matter, if Earth had the absolutely necessary omniscience (and one heck of a touch of uber-power) to play in all past, present and future, how could it lose? Or hell, better yet, why the hell would it choose a future civilization, as a supposed "countermeasure" against Lavos' Chronopolis, that loses?

It's a fluff plot element that ultimaltely proves to be self-contradicting and inconsistent. To say that the Earth suddenly decided to pull back a civilization out of nowhere is a kick in the nuts.

The very notion that's implied herein and elsewhere --like, for instance, it being the famed "Entity"--, that the Earth is a single entity that trascends space-time and thus all dimensions, and that it's 'one and the same' in all of them is incoherent to and inconsistent with the whole mechanics and principles of the entire Chrono world, and would take a good long piss on the game's plot.

Quote
Originally posted by V_Translanka

But as she was merging and her mind was being corrupted by Lavos (& the Mammon Machine), she heard Serge's crying echoing through time. Now, it doesn't really say anything about her being in any particular time at all because it states that Serge's crying is echoing throughout time...The real question is why was Serge's crying so dominant in time?

Indeed that's the real question to be asked: What the hell made Serge so special back then, out of the millions of children that had suffered way more, in different time periods and quite possibly in his very own? And hell no, Schala was NOT omniscient too.

About Schala "passing by different/specific time periods" while she fell in the tesseract, it doesn't matter. It's a spacial distortion, separate or devoid of the force of time. What she did, according to CC, was reach out beyond the vortex temporarily to do her thing.

Quote
Uh, ZeaLitY said this forum, not this thread...but...w/e...I guess...

Bah, whatever. >.<

Quote

Uh, Elements? I dunno...Lucca did something w/Porre didn't she?

Not likely; Elements are much more abundant in El Nido anyways, and apparently it's of little attraction to those from the Zenan Mainland, as evinced by the Porre military's preference in guns.

Lucca? I really don't see her helping Porre out against Guardia...

Quote
Does FATE need Serge alive?

How else could it reach the Frozen Flame? It sure as hell couldn't do away with the Prometheus circuit/bug in its program.

Quote

Since the Planet no longer has to contend w/Lavos for it's almighty Planet energy juices, I'm sure that it's extra powerful in CC than it was in CT where it was just dying and making a few temporal portal things here and there....>_>

Eh, the whole point of pulling the "Reptite civilization" back in time was to ultimately contend against Lavos' will - as in, this face-off actually took place thousands of years in the past.

Quote
Originally posted by Chrono '99

From CT to CC, there isn't a span of twenty years but really a span of ten thousands and twenty years (1,000 AD to 2,400 AD, then Time Crash, then 7,600 BC to 1,020 AD).

Yeah, sure, but those X amount of years didn't fall on Porre and continued through a time bypass that departed from 1,000 A.D., and that eventually came back to its timeline after its own oddissey in space-time, eventually landing again on its timeline in 1,020 A.D. after oh so many years of being lost in different time periods.

So the point is, what, exactly, are you talking about? How do those events fit in or help explain anything about Porre's quick military superiority over Guardia? And if you're going to present the logically applicable "change" factor, then mind that you'll have to apply it to absolutely everything - thus just about everything we know of the Chrono world should in fact mean zilch, as nothing would've been the same; unless you're conveniently implying that Porre, and only Porre, was affected.

Quote
Originally posted by Sentenal

Not a plot hole. Just to let you know where I'm coming from, here it is. Zeality remarked you said CC was full of plot holes, and asked you to post them. You said okay, and then posted these. Us not knowing who the Entity is is NOT a plot hole. A plot hole is something unexplained that contradicts another, explained part of a series or plot.

Who or what the Entity is, is obviously not explained. The whole "Entity" deal I find to be contradicting because it's clear that it's intelligent, and that it was making its moves against Lavos. Yet it has time-bending capabilities, and everything plays out apparently according to its desires --thusly, everyone's a pawn.

Similar to how Belthasar planned everything out in CC, the Entity pretty much played its cards the way it did because it knew they'd do the trick in the end - why would it have made way for Crono and gang to reach the past and travel across time if it were otherwise?

Quote
Most agree it's the Planet.

I kind of agree, too. But we'd have to find ways to explain just how applicable to Earth is said title - which isn't all too easy considering all that it entails.

Quote
Kato said that Porre's rise to power was the result of some outside influence. Plus what Chrono'99 said. Plus, not a plot hole, its just something unexplained.

Anything that jumps from A to C, without ever setting foot on B, is a plot hole. It's an unexplained plot element: a plot hole - and more so because it's CT's damn sequel, as in, it's supposed to explain these things.

Quote
It rewinds time after something bad happens. You remmber Kid getting stabbed, and "dieing", yet being alive later in the game, not remmbering getting stabbed? Yeah. Not a plot hole.

One would say so, yes, but the fact that it did happen, and everyone else remembers it, means that she didn't go anywhere.

The pendant's power is not to give amnesia, dude, it's to take her to a safer point in time, where she's safe. If all it does is give amnesia after the events happen, then what the hell would it do if she just plain out died, as opposed to just getting stabbed and surviving the wound? Hm?

Quote
Eh, not too sure on this one myself.

I am. It be hole in plot.

Quote
It DID exist. In another dimension, where Lavos did not fall, and the Reptites won out. Plus what V_T and Aura said.

It still contradicts the Earth's very nature. If Earth could do that, it would mean that said dimension had no "Earth", or that there's only ONE Earth for ALL the dimensions. See what I mean?

In either case, they're idiotic elements that contradict the hell out of a butt-load of things. There has to be an Earth in the other dimension, or... what? It's only half of a dimension that appeared for the sole purpose to give away spare parts for the other dimensions?

And if you actually believe there's only ONE Earth for ALL dimensions, then why the hell wouldn't Earth just forget about all the other dimensions and simply stick to a way more favorable dimension as the one where the Reptites won, Lavos didn't fall, and Earth prospered and lived happily ever after? Logic speaks for itself, no?

Quote
Originally posted by ZeaLitY

Kato remarked that it's a story for "another time" (Chrono Break?).

Masato Kato also answered "maybe" to a bunch of questions made to him in an interview a few years ago about Chrono Cross, and other such answers that demonstrated doubt and insecurity on a plot and story that he wrote.

As for the theory, my point stands all the same, because FATE seeks to reach the Frozen Flame that's blocked from it, and the only way to accomplish this is by using Serge. Serge is an obstacle, yes, but eliminating him is illogical and would only present an even greater, irreparable obstacle.

Quote
Originally posted by Sentenal

I have a question now:

FATE still didn't have access to the Flame after he killed Serge. This is because Serge is still alive in on world. Why would that matter in Another?

That's not the point, though. It's always been that Serge is the Arbiter and thus the only one with access to the Frozen Flame. If he dies, there'd be no Arbiter to be found; FATE would lose all chances of reaching the Flame and would only continue to lose power, until eventually it would stand idle and powerless.

Why would FATE machinate its own demise, when it's been seeking god-like powers for who knows how many millenniums? It's retarded.

Quote
Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon

Also, if FATE decided to just capture the Porre people that came to explore and not let them leave, that would probably have just as much of an effect as letting them gain power through elements. Imagine half of Porre suddenly disappearing without explanation. The only way that FATE could possibly limit changes would be for it to have brainwashed all the settlers that came and made them think that they found empty ocean, but I doubt that they wandered into Chronopolis (was the sea of eden closed off at that time) or that FATE could send brainwashing things to meet them without even bigger changes.

Which reminds me: Chronopolis, or more specifically FATE, always tried to keep everyone from going out to the Mainlaind, and those from the outside, especially Porre, from coming to El Nido to invesitigate the Archipelago, in order to prevent them from doing anything that would undo the creation of FATE in the future. Yet Lynx is sent as an emissary to the Zenan Mainland to convince the inhabitants that the Frozen Flame is indeed in El Nido and urges them to move in and take over. Contradiction.

Quote
Originally posted by Zenning

Lynx still had a use for Kid and thus preserved her life.

What use?

Quote
He simply needed to incapacitate her before he could brainwash her.

What for?

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2005, 05:28:15 am »
hoo-boy...I don't think I'll even attempt to reply to all of that...

First, the specific person quote tag is [*quote="whoever"]the words whoever wrote[/quote] minus the * of course. Just a heads up in case you didn't know...

Quote from: DS
Nay, it (reptite dimension) doesn't exist, for it doesn't branch off or originate from the original timeline - or rather, the "original" one as far as we know.


Uh, it branches from Lavos not impacting the earth, doesn't it? It exists on another plane of existence as far as I understand dimensions...I don't think anything was 'chosen'...I mean, the Planet only draws Dinopolis forth because Chronopolis was drawn forth. We have no idea if this was just reactionary or if this was a conscious decision that was made and that it could be made at any time or just in conjunction w/something else being brought back like Chronopolis was...

Quote from: DS
Elements are much more abundant in El Nido anyways


Wait, how do we know that?

Quote from: DS
and apparently it's of little attraction to those from the Zenan Mainland, as evinced by the Porre military's preference in guns.


They still use Elements too, though, don't they? Maybe I don't remember...But anyways, just because you use a gun doesn't mean you're going to rule out using magics (consider Lucca for example)...And, they do invade El Nido, don't they?

Quote from: DS
Lucca? I really don't see her helping Porre out against Guardia...


Quote
[Receipt]
   Receipt for
   Goods Received
   1 - KJ830
   - Porre Navy


Okay...It really doesn't say much of anything...and actually, does it look more like Lucca bought something from Porre? Would you get a receipt if you gave them something? What is KJ830?

King Zeal

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2005, 09:58:06 am »
You'll have to forgive the abrupt post.  I'm King Zeal, one of the friends Dark Saint mentioned in a previous post (in which, I feel, he does me too much justice.  Don't let my joke of a sig fool you.)  I'm simply a lover of all things Chrono.  Though I admit that I dislike Chrono Cross strongly for reasons similar to ones he's already posted, I'm not here to "back him up" or anything--nor did he ask me to come, and I'm sure he'll be more shocked to see my post than yourselves.  Indeed, I don't know how much good I'll do in this discussion.  Truth be told, it's been so many years since I've played either Chrono game that it's likely I've forgotten many key elements of plot or script, thus crippling my ability for debate.  Still, as it's been quite a while since I've enjoyed a good Chrono-related discussion, I'm eager to stay here and toss around a few ideas.

Thank you for you time.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2005, 10:13:32 am »
Well...that is kind of off-topic...but this thread isn't the most well defined in that means...so...

Chrono Trigger Script

Chrono Cross Script

Radical Dreamers Script

Or, y'know, I guess you could play them again or something...

King Zeal

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2005, 10:21:42 am »
Well, scripts are easy to get to, but I only tend to reference them when absolutely needed.  The problem isn't in having access to the scripts.  It's in recognizing a "fault" in someone else's argument and being able to cite part of the script as counter-evidence.  My lack of memory in the game hinders me from that recognition.

However, that said:

Quote
Uh, it branches from Lavos not impacting the earth, doesn't it? It exists on another plane of existence as far as I understand dimensions...I don't think anything was 'chosen'...I mean, the Planet only draws Dinopolis forth because Chronopolis was drawn forth. We have no idea if this was just reactionary or if this was a conscious decision that was made and that it could be made at any time or just in conjunction w/something else being brought back like Chronopolis was...


The issue that I (and apparently DS) have with this is that if you're going to throw "what-if" dimensions into the mix, why specifically choose this one?  Why simply choose a world where Lavos never fell?  Why not choose a world where, say, the sentient race on Earth is a bunch of viruses that can wipe out humans in seconds?  The fact that the specific conditions of this what-if dimension existed suggests that it was "chosen".  And if it was, WHY was it chosen?

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2005, 11:18:50 am »
I think it was used because it represented the opposite of Lavos & Chronopolis (I mean, heck, look at the names! Dinopolis! Chronopolis! Who'd a thunk it?)...

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #86 on: September 08, 2005, 11:24:01 am »
I didn't want to do this, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

Quote from: Plot holes
A plot hole is a gap in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses and flaws in a story, and writers try to avoid them (except in certain deliberate circumstances) to make their stories seem as realistic and lifelike as possible.

The viewing or reading audience notes a plot hole when something happens during the story that seems highly unlikely, or would be impossible to imitate in real life. If a bank robber's car is being chased by five or six police cruisers, and the bank robber successfully evades capture simply by making a left turn down a dark alley, this is seen as a plot hole.

It is usually seen as a mark of good writing or directing when a storyteller presents a story in such a way that the audience does not notice plot holes, or willingly chooses to overlook them in favor of enjoying the story.

A well-known plot hole occurs in the 1969 film On Her Majesty's Secret Service. When James Bond meets Ernst Stavro Blofeld, neither man recognizes the other, despite a previous confrontation in 1967's You Only Live Twice. However, both James Bond and Blofeld were played by different actors in both films.


Now, are suddenly all unexplained facets of stories plot holes? Kato has stated that they had help from outside time. Coming from Masato Kato, the creator of a series in which time is mutable, that's a pretty heavy statement, and not a plot hole; he stated that he did not want to try and cram the explanation into Chrono Cross to further overwhelm the player. Kato knows exactly what's going on in his fantasy world, including what happened to Magus, Schala & Kid ,and what caused Porre to rise. That he has decided not to share it with us is his own discretion. In a series where one NPC statement can carry huge repercussions (such as Another Radius's speaking of Guardia), one has to depend on what little evidence there is available in canon. It seems somewhat silly to attack the precept of Belthasar planning this all out when the game specifically states that he did so. He had the FATE supercomputer, but moreover he had the Neo-Epoch. He could have made countless simulations beforehand, and even conducted field research with the Epoch before deploying the Time Crash. Considering he designed an airplane, a palace that could operate on the sea floor, and a device that can travel through time -- with technology immeasurably advanced beyond even that of aliens -- I wouldn't put it past Belthasar to plan out a sequence of events related to time and dimensional transforms.

King Zeal

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2005, 11:50:17 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY


Now, are suddenly all unexplained facets of stories plot holes? Kato has stated that they had help from outside time. Coming from Masato Kato, the creator of a series in which time is mutable, that's a pretty heavy statement, and not a plot hole; he stated that he did not want to try and cram the explanation into Chrono Cross to further overwhelm the player. Kato knows exactly what's going on in his fantasy world, including what happened to Magus, Schala & Kid ,and what caused Porre to rise. That he has decided not to share it with us is his own discretion.


EVERY writer has to juggle this.  You want to make a story that's accessible to readers, and yet, completes its own logic.  However, because Kato chose to omit certain parts of his story, he's left things far too open for speculation (in my opinion).  

Quote
In a series where one NPC statement can carry huge repercussions (such as Another Radius's speaking of Guardia), one has to depend on what little evidence there is available in canon. It seems somewhat silly to attack the precept of Belthasar planning this all out when the game specifically states that he did so. He had the FATE supercomputer, but moreover he had the Neo-Epoch.


Wasn't FATE created decades after he disappeared from 2300 AD?  And how do we even know what uses he would have made for the Neo Epoch?  Especially since, by his own machinations, he wouldn't actually know what would happen until AFTER the Time Crash had occurred?

Quote
He could have made countless simulations beforehand, and even conducted field research with the Epoch before deploying the Time Crash. Considering he designed an airplane, a palace that could operate on the sea floor, and a device that can travel through time -- with technology immeasurably advanced beyond even that of aliens -- I wouldn't put it past Belthasar to plan out a sequence of events related to time and dimensional transforms.


The technology of the Zeal Kingdom was possible due to engineering and an inexhaustable energy supply.  That's a far cry from what the plot states he achieved in regards to the Chrono Cross.  Time travel is, however, obviously an attainable science in the Chrono universe.  Lucca herself achieves it specifically by accident.  Belthasar, in fact, doesn't actually CREATE a time machine until after he'd ALREADY been sent through time--thus not really making that an accomplishment of his own, but instead a means of copying a previous event.  (Such as a physicist trying to generate electric current in a lab after witnessing a lightning storm.)  

The Time Crash and the events thereof called for Belthasar to successfully predict a number of events:

1)  That Lavos would pull Chronopolis specifically to El Nido to the exact time and location that he did.
2)  The Dinopolis would be pulled back by Earth under the same conditions.
3)  That the two would fight and Chronopolis would win.
4)  That Dinopolis would introduce Elements into the world.
5)  That FATE would seal the Dragons and that the Dinopolitans would become Dragonians.
6)  The Dragonians would build Fort Dragonia and the Dragon's Tear.
7)  That Serge (who wouldn't even exist when this plan was conceived) would be bitten by a panther and poisoned.
8.) That Schala, who was tumbling through the timestream (thus taking her out of his area of observation and experimentation) would give him access to the Frozen Flame.
9)  That Lynx would be created.
10)  That Lynx would try to drown Serge.
11)  That Kid would go back in time to save Serge.  (Thus, by extension, making it necessary to predict Kid's creation, discovery by Lucca, and her meeting Serge.)
12)  That the world would split in two.
13)  That Serge would travel to Another World.  
14)  That Lynx would switch bodies with Serge and smash the AW Dragon's Tear.
15)  That Serge would use the HW Dragon's Tear to reclaim his body.
16)  That Serge would use the two pedestals under the waterfall (which Bel would also have to know existed) to merge the two Tears in the Chrono Cross.

Keep in mind:  Belthasar's grand scheme would only work if he predicted and/or caused EACH AND EVERY ONE of these events to occur.  If even one of these events occurred beyond his control (such as the drawing of Dinopolis or the creation of Fort Dragonia), then it was no longer his plan and thus becomes a random occurrence.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2005, 12:11:46 pm »
I'm well aware that he can't go to and from Chronopolis once the Time Crash has occurred. However, he can conduct his own field research in time before in order for planning, or after in case something goes awry and he needs to correct it. Since Belthasar planned the Time Crash, and disappeared shortly before, and since FATE and the Frozen Flame were the key compenents of the crash, they were assembled operative while he was in the future.

Zeal may be artistically better by leaps and bounds than 2300 A.D., but scientifically and practically Chronopolis is as good as it gets. The various rooms reveal they were already aware of countless facts, such as the contact with the Flame and increased brain growth, as well as the nature of Gates and dimensions.

I believe he planned all of those, for one reason:

Quote from: Lucca
[Lucca]
   And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
   the time control project
   Belthasar planned out.
   The whole project existed to
   lead you to this one, special
   point in time!
   The founding of Chronopolis,
   the Time Crash, and the
   battle between FATE and
   the Dragon Gods...
   It was all coordinated so
   that you would get your
   hands on the Chrono Cross
   and come to this place!


The issue is not "did he do it." We should be asking, how? And there are suitable answers for that question out there already.

King Zeal

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2005, 12:19:52 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I'm well aware that he can't go to and from Chronopolis once the Time Crash has occurred. However, he can conduct his own field research in time before in order for planning, or after in case something goes awry and he needs to correct it. Since Belthasar planned the Time Crash, and disappeared shortly before, and since FATE and the Frozen Flame were the key compenents of the crash, they were assembled operative while he was in the future.


The groundwork was laid out, this is true.  However, there are SEVERAL elements of his plan that are not capable of being experimented upon (again, such as Schala hearing Serge or creating Kid).  This would require precognitive abilities on Belthasar's part (which the game never says he has) or dumb luck (thus taking away the credibility of his "plan").  

Quote
Zeal may be artistically better by leaps and bounds than 2300 A.D., but scientifically and practically Chronopolis is as good as it gets. The various rooms reveal they were already aware of countless facts, such as the contact with the Flame and increased brain growth, as well as the nature of Gates and dimensions.


Well yeah.  Aside from the gurus, Zeal was actually rather lazy.  Whereas Chronopolis was pretty much a civilization made for a colony of scientific minds.  So yeah, that's true . . . but what does it prove?  

Quote
I believe he planned all of those, for one reason:

Quote from: Lucca
[Lucca]
   And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
   the time control project
   Belthasar planned out.
   The whole project existed to
   lead you to this one, special
   point in time!
   The founding of Chronopolis,
   the Time Crash, and the
   battle between FATE and
   the Dragon Gods...
   It was all coordinated so
   that you would get your
   hands on the Chrono Cross
   and come to this place!


The issue is not "did he do it." We should be asking, how? And there are suitable answers for that question out there already.


Like Dark Saint, I'm not arguing whether or not he planned it.  I just don't believe the answers provided in the game are "suitable" for how he did it.  It's like saying, in a comic book, that Batman suddenly dies and comes back from the dead.  Then, when the readers ask how, you answer "Batman is really smart".  This provides a non-detailed plot-device--but not an answer.