Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

[V_Translanka]

If the Epoch can travel to the End of Time, is it such a stretch to believe the Neo Epoch can travel to the DBT or w/e Schala is? Or w/e...? Or at least to after she's been sucked into it...Perhaps he simply was able to detect some leftover temporal evidence...

Yeah, I'm totally not tackling all of that...

Oh yeah, and ZeaLitY, I used that wikipedia entry in my Compendium Dictionary of Commonly Used Terms! Although I summarized it (really I just, like, used the first sentence...>_>).

[ZeaLitY]

Here are 5.

-FATE Supercomputer
-Greatest scientific mind of all time
-Neo-Epoch
-Use of Magic

And as a stretch,

-Collaboration with Entity

[King Zeal]

That just causes a few more problems:

1)  Why would Time Devourer NOT simply kill Belthasar?
2)  Why wouldn't Belthasar simply not have gone to the Chrono Trigger characters and ask them rescue Schala instead?
3)  Wouldn't the Time Devourer know about Belthasar's plan and thus try to stop it?

. . . And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[King Zeal]

-FATE Supercomputer

Which, Belathasar can apparently outsmart.  And, also had NO ACCESS to before leaving 2300 AD.

-Greatest scientific mind of all time

Which would not account for MAGICAL involvement (your fourth answer).

-Neo-Epoch

But we don't know how or IF he used it.

-Use of Magic

The universal cop-out answer.  "A wizard did it."

-Collaboration with Entity

Not what the game says.  Plus, we don't even know IF the entity actually exists for real or what it is.

[ZeaLitY]

-FATE Supercomputer

Which, Belathasar can apparently outsmart.  And, also had NO ACCESS to before leaving 2300 AD.

-Greatest scientific mind of all time

Which would not account for MAGICAL involvement (your fourth answer).

-Neo-Epoch

But we don't know how or IF he used it.

-Use of Magic

The universal cop-out answer.  "A wizard did it."

-Collaboration with Entity

Not what the game says.  Plus, we don't even know IF the entity actually exists for real or what it is.

You can outsmart a computer if you program it to be outsmarted. The game distinctly states, from Lynx, that some added some coding that made FATE oblivious to the Prometheus Circuit's existence. FATE also seems to have no idea of the greater purpose it is serving as part of Project Kid.

And the magic goes hand in hand with science. The greatest inventions of the Kingdom of Zeal all seemed to operate on magic or elemental energies. Oh, and...

Cop-out?

Belthasar:
   There, I seized the opportunity
   to study the science of the
   future...
   I was then able to apply to that
   the knowledge I brought from my
   own era, including magic, which
   was long lost in the future.
   Anyway, this led me to make
   huge progress in the research
   of time.

And yes, that's why I marked the fifth as a stretch.

[V_Translanka]

Wow, I totally didn't know you guys were back-and-forth posting when I last posted...

1) Why would Time Devourer NOT simply kill Belthasar?

Because it doesn't exist yet?

If you don't think that he has access to the FATE Supercomputer (I don't really know the specifics of his travels through time, myself), simply replace it w/the Mother Brain Supercomputer.

The use of magic in the Chrono series holds much precident than the regular "a wizard did it"...I mean, Magus can summon a Black Hole for cryin' out loud! And Schala has the magical ability to 1) close gates & 2) help control the flow of Lavos' power in the Mammon Machine (or w/e she does there).

The Entity exists. It is the Planet. There is next to no doubt in this.

[ZeaLitY]

I'd submit that the TD can't reach out and touch someone because it's in the DBT. It's only way to get revenge and fulfill that pervasive hatred that invaded Schala's mind is to eat time and space from the inside out.

[King Zeal]

You can outsmart a computer if you program it to be outsmarted. The game distinctly states, from Lynx, that some added some coding that made FATE oblivious to the Prometheus Circuit's existence. FATE also seems to have no idea of the greater purpose it is serving as part of Project Kid.

The only purpose the Prometheus Circuit served was to lock FATE away from the Frozen Flame the MOMENT it had a chance to.  (Thus meaning that Belthasar predicted Schala's actions AND Serge's involvement--which weren't possible at the time).  This, however, does not denote his prediction of several actions--such as FATE's creation of El Nido.  

And the magic goes hand in hand with science. The greatest inventions of the Kingdom of Zeal all seemed to operate on magic or elemental energies. Oh, and...

So wait . . . are you listing magic as a different branch of science (simple manipulation nature as was done in the Zeal Kingdom) or as the use of supernatural forces (which would make science useless)?  Because there's a big difference between the two.

Belthasar:
   There, I seized the opportunity
   to study the science of the
   future...
   I was then able to apply to that
   the knowledge I brought from my
   own era, including magic, which
   was long lost in the future.
   Anyway, this led me to make
   huge progress in the research
   of time.

This explains how he researched TIME.  This does not explain how he came to formulate his plan or to know about events that would happen in three alternate timelines that he could not have know even existed (or would exist).  

Oh and . . .

Cop-out?

Yes.  Cop-out.

[ZeaLitY]

Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.

I also submit that if you program and oversee the creation of a computer, knowing beforehand its buried ambitions (since this was an improved Mother Brain), you're going to have some idea of what it's going to do, neh? Man, Belthasar is a Guru of Zeal, and the Guru of Reason at that. He can use advanced temporal magic and has the clout to establish a veritable time research instituion complete with a computer able to not only officiate and maintain the building but conduct rigorous simulations and oversee the going ons of an entire chain of islands, down to the last bug. The methods are there.

[King Zeal]

Because it doesn't exist yet?

Yes, it did.  He actually learned of its existence through the Frozen Flame.

If you don't think that he has access to the FATE Supercomputer (I don't really know the specifics of his travels through time, myself), simply replace it w/the Mother Brain Supercomputer.

Right, but apparently, Belthasar doesn't NEED it, as he can easily outsmart one.

The use of magic in the Chrono series holds much precident than the regular "a wizard did it"...I mean, Magus can summon a Black Hole for cryin' out loud! And Schala has the magical ability to 1) close gates & 2) help control the flow of Lavos' power in the Mammon Machine (or w/e she does there).

"Magic" in Chrono Trigger terms tends to speak of the summoning/manipulation of natural elements (Lightning, Fire, Water, and Darkness).  

The Entity exists. It is the Planet. There is next to no doubt in this.

Really?  Because I could have sworn that there's an entire thread debating the subject.

[King Zeal]

Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.

So then:

"Greatest scientific mind of all time" and "Use of magic" shouldn't be listed as two separate reasons, since, in the Chrono universe, magic is just an "advanced" form of science.

I also submit that if you program and oversee the creation of a computer, knowing beforehand its buried ambitions (since this was an improved Mother Brain), you're going to have some idea of what it's going to do, neh?

Within conceivable situations, yes. Predicting what a supercomputer will do to preserve two NON-EXISTENT parallel dimensions and fight a war against extradimensional reptiles are NOT conceivable situations.

[V_Translanka]

Since magic is fundamental in all things, it's not an 'advanced' form of science, it is ingrained in all science.

Also, Belthasar doesn't have to predict those of FATE's actions which he can simply program.

edit: I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...

[King Zeal]

Same thing.  He can't do EITHER unless he predicts the situations in which these actions will be taken.  Which again, brings us back to his amazing precognitive abilities.

I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...

There isn't any evidence that says it IS the planet, either.  Because basically, what we're told is that the Entity was supposed to be trying to relive its life before it died.  In the original, Lavos-ruled timeline, this indeed COULD be the planet, which was on the verge of "death".  However, when Lucca and Marle talk in the new "Lavos-free" timeline, they say that the Entity can "rest in peace" now.  Now, this makes the Planet theory suspect because the Planet in the new timeline was (presumably) just fine and dandy.

[V_Translanka]

Well I think it's obvious that Belthasar is some kind of insane savant...

[SilentMartyr]

Same thing.  He can't do EITHER unless he predicts the situations in which these actions will be taken.  Which again, brings us back to his amazing precognitive abilities.

I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...

There isn't any evidence that says it IS the planet, either.  Because basically, what we're told is that the Entity was supposed to be trying to relive its life before it died.  In the original, Lavos-ruled timeline, this indeed COULD be the planet, which was on the verge of "death".  However, when Lucca and Marle talk in the new "Lavos-free" timeline, they say that the Entity can "rest in peace" now.  Now, this makes the Planet theory suspect because the Planet in the new timeline was (presumably) just fine and dandy.

Umm, neither of them were aware of a being that could devour all of space and time when they talked about that. I don't see that the planet can rest peacefully when it is about to be completely destroyed.